TWO SCOOPS!
@ml1, you are very funny. Your POV is that the conservative narrative is just overblown exaggerations about aggressions of the left and their attempts at quelling free speech. However, those radical right-wing zealots over at the ACLU are also concerned about this issue regarding leftist and using violence to prevent free sp in this instance, please convince me that you are more objective than the ACLU in this instance.
ml1 said:
here's the thing, there are people who want to use these incidents to promote a narrative. The narrative is that "the left" is on a rampage shutting down free speech, and it's getting worse. But these are anecdotes. It's the same half dozen or so incidents that are cited. With a handful of anecdotes from professors who give their personal experiences of "political correctness." But there are literally thousands of institutes of higher learning and millions of students in the U.S. All the research that's out there suggests just that -- these are isolated incidents, and the vast majority of students are strongly in support of free speech. Someone here posted a database of free speech infringements on campus over the past 15 years or so. Instead of proving the point that it's only the "left," and it's getting worse, the database indicated a couple of things. First, that there are roughly a few dozen of these incidents a year, and they're not becoming more frequent. And second, there are incidents provoked by students on both the left and the right (often at conservative Christian schools.)
None of what I've written will of course have any influence on people who are firmly convinced there is a free speech crisis among college students. But the data that's out there doesn't point to a crisis. We should be vigilant of course, but the sky isn't falling.
https://www.knightfoundation.o...
https://pen.org/sites/default/...
https://www.theatlantic.com/po...
http://www.latimes.com/busines...
yes, this.
"Political correctness" is merely the evolution of a less offensive language. It's been happening since forever - it only got labeled by the poor right-wing snowflakes in our generation. The people who object to this simply want the right to be offensive, and get approval for their behavior on top of it.
Well, tough sh!t. If you want to continue to use clearly offensive language, you will get sh!t for it, so that it dies away.
It's called progess.
mrincredible said:
Some people are annoyed that society is becoming less tolerant of people who behave like ********. This is referred to as political correctness. I think it's empathy and courtesy. They love to trot out rare examples like this one of extreme behavior on the other side.
I'm actually a member of the ACLU. My understanding is that they take these individual incidents very seriously and they emphasize the need to be vigilant that they don't spread. Which is my POV as well.
I'm not aware that the ACLU is taking a position that free speech is disappearing on campuses
RealityForAll said:
@ml1, you are very funny. Your POV is that the conservative narrative is just overblown exaggerations about aggressions of the left and their attempts at quelling free speech. However, those radical right-wing zealots over at the ACLU are also concerned about this issue regarding leftist and using violence to prevent free sp in this instance, please convince me that you are more objective than the ACLU in this instance.
You're not defending it? You reaction seems rather mild considering a Liberal professor at a Liberal College being called out as racist because he refused to stay off of campus at an event when all white people were asked to be off campus. Then he is harassed to the point where the police tell him it's not safe for him to be on this campus. This guy taught at this college for 15 years.
I mean you rip the Speaker of the House for being in the same party as a politician who dodged a question about food stamps. But race based intimidation on a liberal campus? Meh. Look, I'm not going to defend it, but meh.
You have a professor hitting trump supporters with a bike lock, and I don't see any outrage. I hardly see any coverage on legacy media.
To me, this brings up 2 problems. First, people have completely different realities in this country. These cases are not covered by the "Progressive" Media because they do not fit their narrative. But, this is an extreme case.
Have you ever channel surfed between these stations during a major event? They will frame the news in completely different ways. So, unless you are really careful you are getting a very slanted view of the world. And the guy out in the country is likely hearing a different narrative.
The only exception is foreign policy. They always legitimize or fail to cover murder overseas unless the act is perpetuated by one of our enemies. This is how Obama was able to get away with, what 7 bombs dropped per hour and nobody blinks an eye.
I mentioned the second problem earlier. We see the splinter in our neighbor's eye, but we don't see the log in our own. The left is really guilty of this. I mean is the Russian hacking hissy fit still going on? People were so busy crying about the fact that Russia "Hacked our Election!", they didn't seem to notice the corruption being exposed in their own party. I find this really troubling.
ml1 said:
I'm not defending what went on in any of these schools over the past year or so.
The question is whether it's getting worse. The research says it's not getting any worse than it's ever been. I do know there are a lot more news sites out there like The Blaze that love to cover this stuff. So if it's deciding between studies that are being done, and databases cataloging the incidents and your gut feeling on the issue, I have to go with the research.
terp said:
I don't know about all that. I mean there is definitely a PC culture movement in this country. This seems to be prevalent on line(surprise) and on many campuses. Some call this movement Cultural Marxism.
And I will say that not everyone see's free speech the same. The one paper you site below says that many of the college students who strongly support free speech do think there should be limits.
This is also not limited to america. I also know of professors in Canada who have experienced some rather hostile reactions for refusing to play the PC game.
It is interesting to note that in these instances there is no attempt to debate the person they have labelled a racist, white supremacist, sexist, or what have you. In the Evergreen case we are talking about a self described liberal. In the Peterson case he refused to use relatively new pronouns for his students. This seems like a tool to limit debate rather than to spur debate. I have seen many of these instances, and when the protesters are given an opportunity to have some discourse, they very rarely have anything to say other than insults.
I know you're on the record saying that this is just about people wanting to be rude. Do you think that is really the case? I mean, the guy disagrees with having a day where white people should stay off of his campus. Was he simply being rude?
I think this is a case of seeing the splinter in your opponents eye but refusing to see the log in our own.
ml1 said:
here's the thing, there are people who want to use these incidents to promote a narrative. The narrative is that "the left" is on a rampage shutting down free speech, and it's getting worse. But these are anecdotes. It's the same half dozen or so incidents that are cited. With a handful of anecdotes from professors who give their personal experiences of "political correctness." But there are literally thousands of institutes of higher learning and millions of students in the U.S. All the research that's out there suggests just that -- these are isolated incidents, and the vast majority of students are strongly in support of free speech. Someone here posted a database of free speech infringements on campus over the past 15 years or so. Instead of proving the point that it's only the "left," and it's getting worse, the database indicated a couple of things. First, that there are roughly a few dozen of these incidents a year, and they're not becoming more frequent. And second, there are incidents provoked by students on both the left and the right (often at conservative Christian schools.)
None of what I've written will of course have any influence on people who are firmly convinced there is a free speech crisis among college students. But the data that's out there doesn't point to a crisis. We should be vigilant of course, but the sky isn't falling.
https://www.knightfoundation.o...
https://pen.org/sites/default/...
https://www.theatlantic.com/po...
http://www.latimes.com/busines...
Yeah, but it's OK to call people racist for minor slights and intimidate them. There's a reason why some call you the regressive left. I think i'm triggered.
These posts are doubleplusgood.
drummerboy said:
yes, this.
"Political correctness" is merely the evolution of a less offensive language. It's been happening since forever - it only got labeled by the poor right-wing snowflakes in our generation. The people who object to this simply want the right to be offensive, and get approval for their behavior on top of it.
Well, tough sh!t. If you want to continue to use clearly offensive language, you will get sh!t for it, so that it dies away.
It's called progess.
mrincredible said:
Some people are annoyed that society is becoming less tolerant of people who behave like ********. This is referred to as political correctness. I think it's empathy and courtesy. They love to trot out rare examples like this one of extreme behavior on the other side.
You're absolutely correct. I do care more about whether millions of people lose their access to health insurance or food than I do about an admittedly concerning event at Evergreen State
terp said:
You're not defending it? You reaction seems rather mild considering a Liberal professor at a Liberal College being called out as racist because he refused to stay off of campus at an event when all white people were asked to be off campus. Then he is harassed to the point where the police tell him it's not safe for him to be on this campus. This guy taught at this college for 15 years.
I mean you rip the Speaker of the House for being in the same party as a politician who dodged a question about food stamps. But race based intimidation on a liberal campus? Meh. Look, I'm not going to defend it, but meh
well, that was pretty non-responsive, apart from putting words in my mouth.
A twofer fail for you!
terp said:
Yeah, but it's OK to call people racist for minor slights and intimidate them. There's a reason why some call you the regressive left. I think i'm triggered.
These posts are doubleplusgood.
drummerboy said:
yes, this.
"Political correctness" is merely the evolution of a less offensive language. It's been happening since forever - it only got labeled by the poor right-wing snowflakes in our generation. The people who object to this simply want the right to be offensive, and get approval for their behavior on top of it.
Well, tough sh!t. If you want to continue to use clearly offensive language, you will get sh!t for it, so that it dies away.
It's called progess.
mrincredible said:
Some people are annoyed that society is becoming less tolerant of people who behave like ********. This is referred to as political correctness. I think it's empathy and courtesy. They love to trot out rare examples like this one of extreme behavior on the other side.
The real underlying premise of terp's observation is false - that the liberal media gives the silent treatment to these eruptions of coercive PC on campus. I've read a ton of stuff about this in the Times and other liberal papers and mags and the coverage and editorial slant is overwhelmingly against the phenomenon.
bub said:
The real underlying premise of terp's observation is false - that the liberal media gives the silent treatment to these eruptions of coercive PC on campus. I've read a ton of stuff about this in the Times and other liberal papers and mags and the coverage and editorial slant is overwhelmingly against the phenomenon.
Individually, these are local stories. The national MSM will gather them into broader articles, or cast a light on them when events rise to another level, but it takes a political slant to make each and every one a national story. (What do I call the slant that decides each and every one isn't a national story? News judgment. A distinction open to debate, but I'm sticking with it.) Even then, there is room for them to appear in MSM op-eds and blogs like those linked above.
I would add that there has been an ugly flip side to the campus PC phenomenon that parallels the rise of Trump. Anti Trump conservatives have been bombarded with death threats and other ugliness by the alt right wing of he Trump base. I've read about this a number of times but I can assure you that each victim's story does not get national press attention in the Times or on Fox News or Breitbart. Cover up Terp?
Anecdotal statements about campus incidents can make for an interesting discussion but in order to better understand fluctuations in magnitude, it might be beneficial to review the Dep't of Education Clery Act campus crime statistics that all institutions in the United States are required to report annually (there are very few who don't report). By each October 1st, the stats for the prior calendar year are gathered and reported. (on 10/01/2107 the stats for the 2016 calendar year must be reported). The caveat is that, while "hate crimes" is one of the mandatory tracking/reporting categories, since party affiliation or political philosophy is not a protected status, incidents relative to those factors would not be broken out in a distinctive manner. The stats can be read and sorted in several ways at: https://ope.ed.gov/campussafet...
bub said: I would add that there has been an ugly flip side to the campus PC phenomenon that parallels the rise of Trump. Anti Trump conservatives have been bombarded with death threats and other ugliness by the alt right wing of he Trump base. I've read about this a number of times but I can assure you that each victim's story does not get national press attention in the Times or on Fox News or Breitbart. Cover up Terp?
I totally agree that there is ugliness to go around on "both sides". This is one reason, I'm not comfortable with either side.
I completely agree that Fox News and Breitbart have different narratives than MSNBC and Salon let's say. Thus, they will have completely different filters. I should point out that I do not frequent any of these outlets. But, this is precisely my point.
FWIW I did a google search for Alt-Right and for Social Justice Warrior on NY Times. I don't think its a fair comparison exactly, but they have lot's of coverage on the Alt Right...even feature articles on "the movement". There's not much on Social Justice Warrior. See below...
Social Justice Warrior search on the New York Times
terp said:
Watch the Dave Rubin show for a reasonable interview with the professor. There's also raw footage all over the place of the incident. There's been lots of chatter on twitter about this.
mrincredible said:
If you google the college or the professor you get pretty much a rogue's gallery of white man's rage site links. One mention by the Washington Post.
It would be interesting to get a more balanced report on the situation.
So are we comparing Trump being as *** to a discrete event at a small university? Or are you simply trying to point out the absurdity at what any news outlet decides to cover or not.
And not ironically, you have decided that (despite increasing evidence that no media is "unbiased") you've chosen to select these 2 events as your comparison.
terp said:
bub said: I would add that there has been an ugly flip side to the campus PC phenomenon that parallels the rise of Trump. Anti Trump conservatives have been bombarded with death threats and other ugliness by the alt right wing of he Trump base. I've read about this a number of times but I can assure you that each victim's story does not get national press attention in the Times or on Fox News or Breitbart. Cover up Terp?
I totally agree that there is ugliness to go around on "both sides". This is one reason, I'm not comfortable with either side.
I completely agree that Fox News and Breitbart have different narratives than MSNBC and Salon let's say. Thus, they will have completely different filters. I should point out that I do not frequent any of these outlets. But, this is precisely my point.
FWIW I did a google search for Alt-Right and for Social Justice Warrior on NY Times. I don't think its a fair comparison exactly, but they have lot's of coverage on the Alt Right...even feature articles on "the movement". There's not much on Social Justice Warrior. See below...
Alt-Right search on the times
Social Justice Warrior search on the New York Times
You are right. It is not a fair comparison.
I get what you're saying. Trump should be like our last president.
Let's take a poor kid in the middle east. His building gets hit with an Obama approved Drone Strike. This happened many many times every single day of his presidency.
Miraculously, this child survives and crawls from the wreckage. Some years later he finds himself in the US. At some point he gets to visit the white house and meet with the president. The least you could do for this kid is make sure he gets as much ice cream as the president!
In the end, that's what's important.
Woot said:
terp said:
Watch the Dave Rubin show for a reasonable interview with the professor. There's also raw footage all over the place of the incident. There's been lots of chatter on twitter about this.
mrincredible said:
If you google the college or the professor you get pretty much a rogue's gallery of white man's rage site links. One mention by the Washington Post.
It would be interesting to get a more balanced report on the situation.
So are we comparing Trump being as *** to a discrete event at a small university? Or are you simply trying to point out the absurdity at what any news outlet decides to cover or not.
And not ironically, you have decided that (despite increasing evidence that no media is "unbiased") you've chosen to select these 2 events as your comparison.
I think a bipartisan clarification about the "sides" needs to be made. The bullying, threats etc. come from extremists and plain old wackos (and immature full of themselves kids in the case of these campus PC dust ups). Most people have no use for this kind of thing. When you start a "what about" thread re the college episode, the perceived editorial message is that liberals endorse, excuse, sweep under the rug this kind of college PC thing. Yet I've never heard a single person endorse it. I don't recall a single editorial in a MSM outlet endorsing it.
Typically these events conclude with a renewed commitment to the free exchange of ideas on campus.
bub said:
I think a bipartisan clarification about the "sides" needs to be made. The bullying, threats etc. come from extremists and plain old wackos (and immature full of themselves kids in the case of these campus PC dust ups). Most people have no use for this kind of thing. When you start a "what about" thread re the college episode, the perceived editorial message is that liberals endorse, excuse, sweep under the rug this kind of college PC thing. Yet I've never heard a single person endorse it. I don't recall a single editorial in a MSM outlet endorsing it.
Look. Denial can be a very very powerful thing. It's like anything else. We hold "the other side" to a higher standard. Their misdeeds are perceived as much worse than ours even if we can see ours. This isn't a liberal thing. It's not a conservative thing. It's a people thing.
Ever notice on the news that if there is a terrorist attack in the middle east that affects Asian people it will get covered, but you don't tend to see a whole news cycle around it. But, if something happens in Europe there will be a rather intense news cycle. If there is an American involved, well then the editor has hit pay dirt! It's essentially that phenomenon.
How did Depaul University react to their students punching Milo Yiannopoulos? Let's see below.
Ben Shapiro is a pretty mainstream conservative. He was forbidden to enter the Depaul University Campus(See video below). When they made this decision they squashed any critiques on social media by removing posts and banning the users from accessing their FB page. Good times...
ml1 said:
Typically these events conclude with a renewed commitment to the free exchange of ideas on campus.
bub said:
I think a bipartisan clarification about the "sides" needs to be made. The bullying, threats etc. come from extremists and plain old wackos (and immature full of themselves kids in the case of these campus PC dust ups). Most people have no use for this kind of thing. When you start a "what about" thread re the college episode, the perceived editorial message is that liberals endorse, excuse, sweep under the rug this kind of college PC thing. Yet I've never heard a single person endorse it. I don't recall a single editorial in a MSM outlet endorsing it.
terp said:FWIW I did a google search for Alt-Right and for Social Justice Warrior on NY Times. I don't think its a fair comparison exactly, but they have lot's of coverage on the Alt Right...even feature articles on "the movement". There's not much on Social Justice Warrior. See below...
I believe the 'Right' coined both terms:
- "Alt-Right" (a euphemism to sound less offensive than 'white nationalists') and
- "Social Justice Warrior" (a pejorative against anyone who is against the right)
I think you fell for comparing the probabilities of 'heads-I-win; tails-you-lose" sides of a coin.
ETA: I think you also just illustrated the effectiveness of the Right's propaganda campaign.
I think what you projected was how the indoctrinated can miss an honest attempt at making a point because they won't take any responsibility even if the issue transcends them. Good show!
Your 'honest attempt' was clearly ill-informed. Way to put the blame for your own ignorance back on me.
sprout said:I believe the 'Right' coined both terms:
- "Alt-Right" (a euphemism to sound less offensive than 'white nationalists') and
- "Social Justice Warrior" (a pejorative against anyone who is against the right)
I think you fell for comparing the probabilities of 'heads-I-win; tails-you-lose" sides of a coin.
Since you believe this it must be fact
lord_pabulum said:
sprout said:
I believe the 'Right' coined both terms:
- "Alt-Right" (a euphemism to sound less offensive than 'white nationalists') and
- "Social Justice Warrior" (a pejorative against anyone who is against the right)
I think you fell for comparing the probabilities of 'heads-I-win; tails-you-lose" sides of a coin.
Since you believe this it must be fact
I put in the 'I believe' because I believe in logic, and it's illogical for the 'Left' to have come up with a pejorative term for themselves, and/or to create a gentler sounding euphemism for white nationalists.
If you have evidence to the contrary, I left the door wide open for you to provide it.
Alt-Right is an interesting one. I think it was once a bit different and had a bigger camp, then it morphed into more what sprout mentioned above and many started distancing themselves from the term.
Anyhoo, I did mention that the searches weren't perfect. I was just trying to get a general read on things. Clearly, for that I should be shot.
SJW almost seems like a positive term. Tim Ferris wanted to rename them 'Bigoteers'.
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Some people are annoyed that society is becoming less tolerant of people who behave like ********. This is referred to as political correctness. I think it's empathy and courtesy. They love to trot out rare examples like this one of extreme behavior on the other side.