Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine

nan said:

cramer said:

nan said -
When are you going to stop hating Putin and start realizing that we have failed leadership ready to send us down the toilet just so the ruling elites can make more bank?

Where is the world  did you get that idea?  You are a true Putin stooge. You hate the U.S. 

So, you are fine with price caps on Russian oil as a way of dealing with this crisis?  

I don't hate the US but I'm very unhappy with them right now. They have the wrong focus. Europe also. 

Whats your problem with price caps on Russian oil?


“Real grown ups don't fall for the lies around proxy wars.”….

I swear…


jamie said 

I wonder what he's doing with all the nazis he's rounded up so far?  

throw lots of chlorine on the bodies and pour concrete over them. 


cramer said:

nan said:

cramer said:

nan said -
When are you going to stop hating Putin and start realizing that we have failed leadership ready to send us down the toilet just so the ruling elites can make more bank?

Where is the world  did you get that idea?  You are a true Putin stooge. You hate the U.S. 

So, you are fine with price caps on Russian oil as a way of dealing with this crisis?  

I don't hate the US but I'm very unhappy with them right now. They have the wrong focus. Europe also. 

Whats your problem with price caps on Russian oil?

Did a whole long post on that:  https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/subforum/russia-ukraine-showdown/politics-plus?page=next&limit=1980

What is your take on it?


Jaytee said:

jamie said 

I wonder what he's doing with all the nazis he's rounded up so far?  

throw lots of chlorine on the bodies and pour concrete over them. 

Interesting that you know how to get rid of bodies.  


nan said:

cramer said:

nan said:

cramer said:

nan said -
When are you going to stop hating Putin and start realizing that we have failed leadership ready to send us down the toilet just so the ruling elites can make more bank?

Where is the world  did you get that idea?  You are a true Putin stooge. You hate the U.S. 

So, you are fine with price caps on Russian oil as a way of dealing with this crisis?  

I don't hate the US but I'm very unhappy with them right now. They have the wrong focus. Europe also. 

Whats your problem with price caps on Russian oil?

Did a whole long post on that:  https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/subforum/russia-ukraine-showdown/politics-plus?page=next&limit=1980

What is your take on it?

I didn't see anything in that post about a cap on Russian oil. Maybe you can quote the relevant part for me. 

You do realize, I hope, that the price caps on Russian oil are not meant to effect the prices of other crude oils around the world?  The caps are meant to decrease the price that Russia gets for its oil. which is  funding Putin's war on Ukraine. Because of the sanctions, Russia is only able to sell its oil to China and India. Because China and India know that they are in the driver's seat, Russian oil from the Urals is selling at 25% discount to Brent crude, which is the benchmark. 

btw - The prices of WTI crude and Brent crude are lower than before the invasion. 


nan said:

Interesting that you know how to get rid of bodies.  

It’s the procedure the Russian construction company is using in the rebuilding of the Mariupol theatre… before the inspectors arrive in their quest for evidence of war crimes committed by Russian forces, that is being investigated currently.


Russia faces ‘economic oblivion’ despite claims of short-term resilience, economists say

"However, many economists see long-lasting costs to the Russian economy from the exit of foreign firms – which will hit production capacity and capital and result in a “brain drain” – along with the loss of its long-term oil and gas markets and diminished access to critical imports of technology and inputs.

Ian Bremmer, president of Eurasia Group, told CNBC on Monday that while short-term disruptions from sanctions are less than originally anticipated, the real debate goes beyond 2022.

“Anecdotal evidence suggests the manufacturing dislocations are rising as inventories are depleted and scarcity of foreign parts becomes binding. Chips and transport are among the sectors cited, in some cases reflecting dual-use military demand,” Bremmer said.

“Governmental arrears may be contributing to broader shortages. Imports of consumer goods are increasing, but less so intermediate/investment goods.”

Bremmer highlighted that as sanctions intensify and popular discontent grows, the educated are leaving Russia, underscoring the importance of trade sanctions on sensitive technologies and the “longer timeline by which sanctions undermine trend productivity and growth.”

“Brain drain leads to a direct decline in the working age population, especially high-productivity workers, reducing GDP,” he said.

“It affects overall productivity, reducing innovation and affects overall confidence in the economy, reducing investment and savings.”

Eurasia Group projects a sustained, long-term decline in economic activity to eventually result in a 30%-50% contraction in Russian GDP from its prewar level."

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/02/russia-faces-economic-oblivion-despite-short-term-resilience.html


nan said:

I have zero patience for people who use words like "tankie" to sound grown-up.  Real grown ups don't fall for the lies around proxy wars.  

I'm sick of the money spent on useless neocon directed wars that we lose anyway and it hurts our economy.  We are falling apart and our empire is going down the toilet. 

It's a legitimate shorthand descriptive term for the propagandists who channel the "Xi Xinping Thought" into political arguments in the U.S.

And you are literally posting Russian propaganda now, don't spew that garbage here.

[Edited to add] My bad, it's not just Russian propaganda. It's more like shiteposting on the Twitter, including pro-North Korean propaganda. 


Jaytee said:

nan said:

Interesting that you know how to get rid of bodies.  

It’s the procedure the Russian construction company is using in the rebuilding of the Mariupol theatre… before the inspectors arrive in their quest for evidence of war crimes committed by Russian forces, that is being investigated currently.

Her "sources" don't talk about things like that.


nan said:

Russia wanted a peace deal and the UK stopped it in favor of war because they wanted to overthrow Putin.  Now the Russian sanctions are blowing back on the West while Russia prospers.  When are you going to stop hating Putin and start realizing that we have failed leadership ready to send us down the toilet just so the ruling elites can make more bank?  These are the real problem.  We are not going to overthrow Russia and will be destroyed if we continue to try.  We should be getting along with them anyway. 

Putin's goal was to stop the expansion of NATO on his doorstep, not to disrupt the West.  It's not always about us.  He has uncoupled with the west and joined with China and much of the rest of the world and they are going to eat our lunch.  Meanwhile it's us and the Europeans and they are about to freeze and starve and we can't help them. Not looking good for Team USA.  

Many people in the Donbas were glad to see the Russians arrive and there are lots of videos of them hugging Russian troops.  

I am anti-war and I wish Putin could have done something else such as at least made a speech to the world talking about how he was pushed in a corner or done something besides the invasion.  But, you continue to characterize this as unprovoked and it was very provoked.  That's what proxy wars are about.  You should get up to speed because the US is doing the same thing in Taiwan because we never learn.  The neocons are in charge and they have no stop or off-ramp.

Yes, they will have a referendum--which Zelensky said there would be huge consequences for participating in.  So we will see what happens with that.  I suppose if the voting favors Russia you will say it was fixed and if it favors Ukraine you will say it was fair. 

I glanced at the Dmitry Kosyrev piece and you are right, I don't have a problem with what he wrote (did not read whole thing though).  I was horrified at that Biden speech with the poisonous red background (like Melania's red Christmas trees--the US government can't help but evoke spilled blood).  Instead of talking about all the HUGE problems we have here or Mississippi not having clean water or infrastructure, education, etc. he just dumped on half the voters.  This is what Clinton did in 2016 and look  how that turned out.  When are the Democrats going to do something for ordinary people and stop running on "at least we are not as bad as the monster running?"  I know that speech played well for the people who happily vote for a senile Democratic warmonger  (Vote Blue Anywho) but it's not going to get any of the rest of us off the couch. Why alienate half the country?  Why not give people a concrete reason to vote for you instead of just attacking half the country and  throwing out stupid platitudes?  

Your third link did not translate.

On the Duran:  I posted a Duran video about how the West is going to impose price caps against the advice of every economist on the planet.  You seem to blame the Duran for that, but it's reality.  What do you think of that strategy?  Do you think it will work?  The Duran have interesting conversations.  You don't have to agree with them.  

Back to Ukraine.

Do you still think Putin has cancer?   He looks very healthy to me.   They are also always saying the head military guy has had like 25 heart attacks.  Again, he looks healthy.  

The Russian people support Putin because he's not Yetlsin.  If we were to overthrow Putin we would put in Yeltsin II and that would be hell for them.  We would do more neoliberal shock doctrine such as they got in Ukraine.  People would starve and die again as they did in the 1990s.  Putin is way better than Yetlsin. 

Russia is a beautiful country and it's sad that we are now closed off from relations with them.  This whole war was designed by the West to benefit the war manufacturers and other elites and NATO and it's not good for regular people anywhere.  You have been convinced to go against your own well being.  Looks like many in Europe have had enough and are seeing through the BS because it's now directly affecting their daily lives. 

Again - your faith in VlAd in INCREDIBLE - you actually believe it's our failed leadership that is dropping bombing a wiping out Ukraine?  From what I see Vlad is doing this - tell me if I'm wrong.

You don't stop NATO on your doorstep by starting a war - this gives all the more reason to have a NATO!  Your rhetoric is 1000% behind the operation.

You wish Putin could have done something else????????  That's great to say - but your hourly justification for his actions paint a completely different picture.

How do you have proper referendums when  you forced millions of people to flee from the country?

Russia is a good country run by a guy who has no problem sending young soldiers to their death - something you seem to applaud.

The purpose of this operation is to disrupt the west - which I think you've proven that you pretty much agree with tactic.  You the theUran are gloating in the achievements of Vlad's actions.

And I don't know if Vlad has cancer - who cares.   Glad your praising his healthiness - \big future for you in RT with comments like that.

The Russian people are forced to like putin.  Can you link to a recent protest against the war in Russia - do you have ANY idea why there aren't any?  WDoes Putin's have any opposition - that isn't currently in prison?


jamie said:

The Russian people are forced to like putin.  Can you link to a recent protest against the war in Russia - do you have ANY idea why there aren't any?  WDoes Putin's have any opposition - that isn't currently in prison?

Ms Nan doesn't even object to executing some prisoners of war, because Putin says they're Nazis.  Why should she care about Russian anti-war activists?


This is fascinating - some of nan's experts backaways was connecting the buffalo shooter with azov:

https://www.isdglobal.org/digital_dispatches/the-ongoing-effort-to-link-the-buffalo-shooter-to-azov-battalion/

Some on the hard left are also pro-Kremlin, sometimes driven by the belief that NATO expansion is unwarranted, and that Putin is fighting against American imperialism and hegemony. For those in this camp, linking Gendron to Azov, and Azov to the US, is a mechanism for undermining the morality of the US government in their support for Ukrainian resistance to the Russian invasion.

It is fascinating to see the cult of Putin justifiers out there.  From people who used to be anti-war.  There's rarely a discussion on what's being done to end this and what putin wants.  No one truly knows.  Everyone line that if we had done X Putin would have not done Y is pure speculation.

There's no talk about the concept of denazification - I bring up a lot because it's the justification for the 
"operation" on every news story in the Vlad media.  This to me IS genocide and a free pass to destroy a country.


Jaytee said:

nan said:

Interesting that you know how to get rid of bodies.  

It’s the procedure the Russian construction company is using in the rebuilding of the Mariupol theatre… before the inspectors arrive in their quest for evidence of war crimes committed by Russian forces, that is being investigated currently.

Oh, were you an intern there?


cramer said:

nan said:

cramer said:

nan said:

cramer said:

nan said -
When are you going to stop hating Putin and start realizing that we have failed leadership ready to send us down the toilet just so the ruling elites can make more bank?

Where is the world  did you get that idea?  You are a true Putin stooge. You hate the U.S. 

So, you are fine with price caps on Russian oil as a way of dealing with this crisis?  

I don't hate the US but I'm very unhappy with them right now. They have the wrong focus. Europe also. 

Whats your problem with price caps on Russian oil?

Did a whole long post on that:  https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/subforum/russia-ukraine-showdown/politics-plus?page=next&limit=1980

What is your take on it?

I didn't see anything in that post about a cap on Russian oil. Maybe you can quote the relevant part for me. 

You do realize, I hope, that the price caps on Russian oil are not meant to effect the prices of other crude oils around the world?  The caps are meant to decrease the price that Russia gets for its oil. which is  funding Putin's war on Ukraine. Because of the sanctions, Russia is only able to sell its oil to China and India. Because China and India know that they are in the driver's seat, Russian oil from the Urals is selling at 25% discount to Brent crude, which is the benchmark. 

btw - The prices of WTI crude and Brent crude are lower than before the invasion. 

Sorry, I put the wrong link in.  I will repost here:

nan

nan

Sep 3, 2022 at 11:06am

So, when things are bad, what does the US government do? Answer: make them worse. Discussion in the video below--I am summarizing what is said--not exact wording.

The G7, has decided to put a price cap on Russian oil. Very bad move. This is an admission of defeat and the response is always to double down. They are constantly looking for some way out. The US treasury said it was a bad idea to ban Russian oil (Janet Yellen very much opposed) that came by ship but the Europeans did it anyway. Yellen came up with this idea to re-balance the oil market in some way by imposing this oil price cap and using the insurance market to enforce it. 90% of the oil from Russia imported into the EU comes by ship. It's going to blow up in their faces.

They are trying to get Russia to keep exporting oil but at a lower price. They are trying to impose a price cap but it is not going to succeed.

It is based on the assumption that China and India will play along. Also, that they won't be able to get insurance services, which is nonsense. The time of the world when London provided all the insurance services is gone.

This is going to lead to major instability. The secondary markets are going to be loving this. Europe is already buying LNG from China which originated in Russia. This is an oil smuggler's charter.

This is going to boomerang back and affect the collective west. It's going to create oil shortages in an already tight market. Oil prices are going to rise.

One thing they are not willing to do is to give up on the attrition war because all their credibility is not invested in it. This is the Kherson Offensive of the economic attrition. The military experts in Ukraine said the Kherson offensive was a bad idea but we had it anyway. Same with the oil price cap.

Yellen made it clear that doing this ban would push the price of oil up but the hardliners won as they always do. The people who want the most idiotic sanctions always get their way. There is going to be a huge crisis come winter because by that point there is going to be accumulating oil shortages, massive imbalances in the oil market because we are going to find there is no oil from Russia coming to Europe, there is not enough oil coming from the Gulf to make that up. We are going to have a cascade effect on oil prices in the United States which is a very sensitive issue which are going to start rising as well.

So, Yellen says that instead of having the oil banned let's try to bring down the price by imposing this price cap on Russian oil. It does not solve the problem. Also, the previous import ban is not being lifted. They are just adding this on to the other thing. It creates more complexities. It is disrupting the efficient working of the oil market.

Oil will not be able to move smoothly around the world economy. It will result in higher oil prices. The Saudi's said not to do this. They said the market is tight and Saudi Arabia is at the limits of what it can produce. All the big oil producers have said the same. Every economist and oil industry specialist said it was a bad idea. BUT, they are going to do it anyway.

Saudi Arabia is probably looking at this and thinking, "Let's get into BRICS." The leadership in the West are a bunch of Bozos.

The more this fails and the more they press on with it -- think of Annalena Baerbock's comments (German politician who said Ukraine matters more than German voters--I've posted her comments twice), who says "I don't care about Germany. We are just going to carry on with this thing until eventually we win." Also that we are going to face down protests in Germany. This is a deeply authoritarian response. We also have the US President increasingly talking about the dangers to Democracy from the Republicans. The worse things get, the more these people are going to try to clamp down. That is the dynamic that we are now seeing. They are going to double down on their anti-Russian policy and they are going to double down on anyone within their own societies who says "This is wrong."


nan said:

Jaytee said:

nan said:

Interesting that you know how to get rid of bodies.  

It’s the procedure the Russian construction company is using in the rebuilding of the Mariupol theatre… before the inspectors arrive in their quest for evidence of war crimes committed by Russian forces, that is being investigated currently.

Oh, were you an intern there?

"No one knows how many Ukrainians were crushed beneath the rubble, burned, killed by shrapnel or blast waves or asphyxiated in and around the theater. The estimates of dead I heard from survivors ranged from 60 to 200, but The Associated Press found that it could be up to 600. With Mariupol in Russian hands, it’s unlikely that a real accounting of the dead, or for that matter any on-the-ground investigation of the bombing, will take place."

Witness to the Massacre in Mariupol - The New York Times (nytimes.com)


nohero said:

nan said:

Jaytee said:

nan said:

Interesting that you know how to get rid of bodies.  

It’s the procedure the Russian construction company is using in the rebuilding of the Mariupol theatre… before the inspectors arrive in their quest for evidence of war crimes committed by Russian forces, that is being investigated currently.

Oh, were you an intern there?

"No one knows how many Ukrainians were crushed beneath the rubble, burned, killed by shrapnel or blast waves or asphyxiated in and around the theater. The estimates of dead I heard from survivors ranged from 60 to 200, but The Associated Press found that it could be up to 600. With Mariupol in Russian hands, it’s unlikely that a real accounting of the dead, or for that matter any on-the-ground investigation of the bombing, will take place."

Witness to the Massacre in Mariupol - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Yeah, that's the mainstream media version.  There are others, also with witnesses. 

Was bombing of Mariupol theater staged by Ukrainian Azov extremists to trigger NATO intervention?

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/18/bombing-mariupol-theater-ukrainian-azov-nato-intervention/

New witness testimony about Mariupol maternity hospital ‘airstrike’ follows pattern of Ukrainian deceptions, media malpractice

BBC correspondent-fixer shaping Ukraine war coverage is PR operative involved in “war-messaging tool”

BBC reports on the suspicious destruction of a theater in the Ukrainian city of Mariupol were co-authored by a Ukrainian PR agent tied to a firm at the forefront of her country’s information warfare efforts.

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/25/bbc-fixer-war-ukrainian-nationalist-pr-operative/


nohero said:

jamie said:

The Russian people are forced to like putin.  Can you link to a recent protest against the war in Russia - do you have ANY idea why there aren't any?  WDoes Putin's have any opposition - that isn't currently in prison?

Ms Nan doesn't even object to executing some prisoners of war, because Putin says they're Nazis.  Why should she care about Russian anti-war activists?

I oppose the death penalty, which we also have in this country.  Russia does not have the death penalty, by the way. 


nan said:

Russia does not have the death penalty, by the way. 

Poorly built windows are religious symbols…

Food poisoning is an act of God..


nan said:

  Russia does not have the death penalty, by the way. 

Tell that to Alexander Litvinenko.


I am curious Nan. Do you believe in Climate Change and the Moon Landings? How about Pizzagate?

How do you choose which conspiracy theories you are going to subscribe to and which ones you will reject?


GoSlugs said:

I am curious Nan. Do you believe in Climate Change and the Moon Landings? How about Pizzagate?

How do you choose which conspiracy theories you are going to subscribe to and which ones you will reject?


Jaytee said:

nan said:

Russia does not have the death penalty, by the way. 

Poorly built windows are religious symbols…

Food poisoning is an act of God..

We are talking about people who go through the legal system.  Speculation about assassination happens in every country. We just had one of those in Russia done by Ukrainians SBU, by the way. 


GoSlugs said:

nan said:

  Russia does not have the death penalty, by the way. 

Tell that to Alexander Litvinenko.


Taking Aim at Putin: Stephen Cohen Contests the Myths

https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/05/06/taking-aim-at-putin-stephen-cohen-contests-the-myths/

The western press had a vulturous field day accusing Putin of being a murderer of journalists and other “enemies.” Putin’s accusers – in the cases of investigative journalist Anna Politkovskaya (shot to death in Moscow in 2006) and the shadowy Alexander Litvinenko, a “one-time KGB defector with ties to aggrieved Yeltsin-era oligarchs, who died of radiation poisoning in London, also in 2006” (p. 6). Guess what? No evidence points to Putin in either case. The editor of the “devoutly independent Novaya Gazeta still believes that the assassination was ordered by Chechen officials, whose human-rights abuses she was investigating. These are highly and complexly entangled issues: but a still partially corrupt economic system – a “culture of impunity that began before Putin, in the late 1990s” (ibid.) may be responsible for murderous acts.


nan said:

Jaytee said:

nan said:

Russia does not have the death penalty, by the way. 

Poorly built windows are religious symbols…

Food poisoning is an act of God..

We are talking about people who go through the legal system.  Speculation about assassination happens in every country. We just had one of those in Russia done by Ukrainians SBU, by the way. 

WE??? Who's "we" Kemosabe?


Dennis_Seelbach said:

nan said:

Jaytee said:

nan said:

Russia does not have the death penalty, by the way. 

Poorly built windows are religious symbols…

Food poisoning is an act of God..

We are talking about people who go through the legal system.  Speculation about assassination happens in every country. We just had one of those in Russia done by Ukrainians SBU, by the way. 

WE??? Who's "we" Kemosabe?

The world in general.  Were you asleep?  This happened. 

 https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/08/24/how-the-murder-of-daria-dugina-is-a-wild-card-in-a-zero-sum-conflict/


nan said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

nan said:

Jaytee said:

nan said:

Russia does not have the death penalty, by the way. 

Poorly built windows are religious symbols…

Food poisoning is an act of God..

We are talking about people who go through the legal system.  Speculation about assassination happens in every country. We just had one of those in Russia done by Ukrainians SBU, by the way. 

WE??? Who's "we" Kemosabe?

The world in general.  Were you asleep?  This happened. 

 https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/08/24/how-the-murder-of-daria-dugina-is-a-wild-card-in-a-zero-sum-conflict/

Clueless anti-American BS.


Dennis_Seelbach said:

nan said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

nan said:

Jaytee said:

nan said:

Russia does not have the death penalty, by the way. 

Poorly built windows are religious symbols…

Food poisoning is an act of God..

We are talking about people who go through the legal system.  Speculation about assassination happens in every country. We just had one of those in Russia done by Ukrainians SBU, by the way. 

WE??? Who's "we" Kemosabe?

The world in general.  Were you asleep?  This happened. 

 https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/08/24/how-the-murder-of-daria-dugina-is-a-wild-card-in-a-zero-sum-conflict/

Clueless anti-American BS.

I thought we were a free country with the right to criticize the government as we want.  Did that change?


nan said:

I thought we were a free country with the right to criticize the government as we want.  Did that change?

free speech is not necessarily a wheel barrow filled with teeming horse excrement. You are just ridiculous. 


nan said:

GoSlugs said:

I am curious Nan. Do you believe in Climate Change and the Moon Landings? How about Pizzagate?

How do you choose which conspiracy theories you are going to subscribe to and which ones you will reject?

You didn't answer my question.

Seriously, let's just take Climate Change.  Real or conspiracy?


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