Road Rage attack/incident

IMHO, smacking someone's car if they speed by while you're in pedestrian walkway should be considered self-defense.

not much of self defense there -- that's like hitting your head against a hammer in defense of being hit by the hammer..

We don't know the whole situation in this case, but as usual we are all eager to jump to conclusions on what happened and why the police acted this way or another way.. let's give it some time for the story details to surface..

Having said that, there are way too many reckless drivers and crazy violent people out there all around us ...

yahooyahoo said:
IMHO, smacking someone's car if they speed by while you're in pedestrian walkway should be considered self-defense.

CBS local news report.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/10/28/cbs2-exclusive-woman-says-aggressive-driver-attacked-her-in-front-of-maplewood-home/

How does this court case shake out? Any legal eagles?

The latest Village Green article has some updates, including a statement from the MPD.

http://villagegreennj.com/police-and-fire/maplewood-police-release-new-details-road-rage-dispute/

It says both women were identified and injured, but suggests that neither has yet pressed charges. I'm confident that the police will make an arrest, as appropriate, if the pedestrian presses charges against the driver. The issue may be whether the pedestrian merely engaged in self defense or became an active participant in a mutual brawl. Eyewitness accounts seem to suggest the former, but the release notes that both women have been advised of the procedures for pressing charges.

The police just released this footage of the incident from the newly installed video camera placed that intersection:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c412hqucHKw

Interesting statement by the Police. It states that an assault took place and it implies there was a motor vehicle violation.

I'm not sure how you can call it a "mutual brawl" when the driver stopped, got out of the car, and engaged in a fight. What is the difference between "self defense" and "mutual brawl?" Do you have to stand there until the person starts pounding you in the face?

tomdevon said:
The latest Village Green article has some updates, including a statement from the MPD.
http://villagegreennj.com/police-and-fire/maplewood-police-release-new-details-road-rage-dispute/
It says both women were identified and injured, but suggests that neither has yet pressed charges. I'm confident that the police will make an arrest, as appropriate, if the pedestrian presses charges against the driver. The issue may be whether the pedestrian merely engaged in self defense or became an active participant in a mutual brawl. Eyewitness accounts seem to suggest the former, but the release notes that both women have been advised of the procedures for pressing charges.

yahooyahoo said:
Interesting statement by the Police. It states that an assault took place and it implies there was a motor vehicle violation.
I'm not sure how you can call it a "mutual brawl" when the driver stopped, got out of the car, and engaged in a fight. What is the difference between "self defense" and "mutual brawl?" Do you have to stand there until the person starts pounding you in the face?

I wasn't calling it anything, just noting with interest that the MPD statement said that both parties to the incident have been given instructions for the procedures to file a criminal complaint, and also that both parties had injuries. While I had heard that the driver simply attacked the pedestrian, who was injured and hospitalized, the police statement seems to suggest that the altercation may have been less one-sided than initially reported. Maybe the police are just remaining neutral in their language, but I was leaving open the possibility that the pedestrian may have gone beyond self defense. But I also agree with you that some level of self defense was certainly justified in this situation.

yahooyahoo said:
Interesting statement by the Police. It states that an assault took place and it implies there was a motor vehicle violation.
I'm not sure how you can call it a "mutual brawl" when the driver stopped, got out of the car, and engaged in a fight. What is the difference between "self defense" and "mutual brawl?" Do you have to stand there until the person starts pounding you in the face?

tomdevon said:
The latest Village Green article has some updates, including a statement from the MPD.
http://villagegreennj.com/police-and-fire/maplewood-police-release-new-details-road-rage-dispute/
It says both women were identified and injured, but suggests that neither has yet pressed charges. I'm confident that the police will make an arrest, as appropriate, if the pedestrian presses charges against the driver. The issue may be whether the pedestrian merely engaged in self defense or became an active participant in a mutual brawl. Eyewitness accounts seem to suggest the former, but the release notes that both women have been advised of the procedures for pressing charges.

the police can only know the accusations from each participant. it's a "mutual brawl" from their perspective if each participant is making an allegation against the other. It would take a trial with testimony from witnesses to determine what happened. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it's certainly possible the driver could allege that she just got out of the car to talk to the pedestrian, and the pedestrian initiated the physical altercation. I have to say that if I was attacked by someone, even if I had shouted at the person, and slapped the car, I'd press charges.

ml1 said:

the police can only know the accusations from each participant. it's a "mutual brawl" from their perspective if each participant is making an allegation against the other. It would take a trial with testimony from witnesses to determine what happened. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it's certainly possible the driver could allege that she just got out of the car to talk to the pedestrian, and the pedestrian initiated the physical altercation. I have to say that if I was attacked by someone, even if I had shouted at the person, and slapped the car, I'd press charges.

Exactly. No disagreement here.

Absolutely. The police need the victim to file a complaint in order to move forward. If she doesn't, there's nothing they can do

tomdevon said:

ml1 said:

the police can only know the accusations from each participant. it's a "mutual brawl" from their perspective if each participant is making an allegation against the other. It would take a trial with testimony from witnesses to determine what happened. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it's certainly possible the driver could allege that she just got out of the car to talk to the pedestrian, and the pedestrian initiated the physical altercation. I have to say that if I was attacked by someone, even if I had shouted at the person, and slapped the car, I'd press charges.

Exactly. No disagreement here.

Even if the pedestrian had not defended herself, the driver would have bruises and scrapes from giving the other woman a beating. And I doubt the pedestrian just stood there and let herself be hit. So, of course both women have injuries.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/video/3312915-cbs2-exclusive-maplewood-assault/

Speechless ... I hope the victim heals quickly and finds justice. I get that there are 2 sides to every story but she was obviously severely beaten and with coroboration from the neighbor I see no reason to doubt the story. Sure it's in your own best interest not to aggravate a bad driver, but while heated words might get exchanged if you do if someone beats you like that they should be held accountable.

In my opinion.

I don't see how the driver would be injured unless she got out of the car and approached the pedestrian. Even not knowing who did what to whom first, if the car had simply kept going, the driver would have had no injuries. So, to my mind, the driver has to bear most of the responsibility for instigating any confrontation that happened.

Agree...but in that case why not file a complaint

deborahg said:
Agree...but in that case why not file a complaint

A friend of mine in HS was on his bike and a car ran him off the road. He yelled "f you!" at the driver, who proceeded to pull over, get out of his car, and give my friend a beating. When it went to trial, both were convicted. Because he yelled an obscenity at the driver, my friend was guilty of being a "disorderly person."

how do you run a bicycle off the road without hitting him.

Robert_Casotto said:
how do you run a bicycle off the road without hitting him.

you cut the bike off and he steers off the road

ml1 said:

deborahg said:
Agree...but in that case why not file a complaint

A friend of mine in HS was on his bike and a car ran him off the road. He yelled "f you!" at the driver, who proceeded to pull over, get out of his car, and give my friend a beating. When it went to trial, both were convicted. Because he yelled an obscenity at the driver, my friend was guilty of being a "disorderly person."

I'll bet there is more to that story. Cursing at someone because they run you off the road is not deserving of a beatdown.

fabulouswalls said:

ml1 said:

deborahg said:
Agree...but in that case why not file a complaint

A friend of mine in HS was on his bike and a car ran him off the road. He yelled "f you!" at the driver, who proceeded to pull over, get out of his car, and give my friend a beating. When it went to trial, both were convicted. Because he yelled an obscenity at the driver, my friend was guilty of being a "disorderly person."

I'll bet there is more to that story. Cursing at someone because they run you off the road is not deserving of a beatdown.

how many road rage incidents have you heard of that sound reasonable?

fabulouswalls said:

ml1 said:

deborahg said:
Agree...but in that case why not file a complaint

A friend of mine in HS was on his bike and a car ran him off the road. He yelled "f you!" at the driver, who proceeded to pull over, get out of his car, and give my friend a beating. When it went to trial, both were convicted. Because he yelled an obscenity at the driver, my friend was guilty of being a "disorderly person."

I'll bet there is more to that story. Cursing at someone because they run you off the road is not deserving of a beatdown.

But, this incident seems to be started by little more that...

There's the legal issue of who did what, and conviction and penalty, and the somewhat larger issue of road safety in that neighborhood. Residents have been advocating, begging and yelling for more police presence, speed bumps, flashing stop signs, and a few seem to be blaming the TC and MPD (for presumably not having provided enough of the above) for incidents like this one. I don't agree with that, but it's out there.

marylago said:

fabulouswalls said:

ml1 said:

deborahg said:
Agree...but in that case why not file a complaint

A friend of mine in HS was on his bike and a car ran him off the road. He yelled "f you!" at the driver, who proceeded to pull over, get out of his car, and give my friend a beating. When it went to trial, both were convicted. Because he yelled an obscenity at the driver, my friend was guilty of being a "disorderly person."

I'll bet there is more to that story. Cursing at someone because they run you off the road is not deserving of a beatdown.

But, this incident seems to be started by little more that...

You don't think that someone yelling an obscenity at someone else, who is already being an ***** with their driving, is enough for said ***** to further react over the top?

ml1 said:

fabulouswalls said:

ml1 said:

deborahg said:
Agree...but in that case why not file a complaint

A friend of mine in HS was on his bike and a car ran him off the road. He yelled "f you!" at the driver, who proceeded to pull over, get out of his car, and give my friend a beating. When it went to trial, both were convicted. Because he yelled an obscenity at the driver, my friend was guilty of being a "disorderly person."

I'll bet there is more to that story. Cursing at someone because they run you off the road is not deserving of a beatdown.

how many road rage incidents have you heard of that sound reasonable?

Few. Well, none really.

I may be reading it wrong, but my take on @fabulouswalls's comment is that there may be more to the story in regards to them both getting a conviction, not more to the story in regards to the beat down itself

As far as road rage being "reasonable," I can't say I can think of any reasonable incidents, but I can understand what sets some people off. For example, about 25 years ago my then-boyfriend D was driving us somewhere on Rt 24, close to 78 where it is three lanes. Being 18 at the time, of course he was in the left lane so he wouldn't be slowed down by the "old people." He almost missed his exit and immediately cut the wheel and swerved across the roadway, almost hitting someone. The guy followed us off the exit. When we stopped at a red the guy jumped out and started screaming at D to get out of the car. D of course didn't. The guy started kicking the driver side door repeatedly until the light turned green and D took off. Now I am not defending that guy, but I do understand his extreme anger, he was cut off at highway speeds by some asshat teen who could have caused a serious accident, possibly even killing someone.

That said, I do understand that most cases of road rage are over stupid crap, and that even when the incident isn't stupid violence is never justified.

ctrzaska said:

marylago said:

fabulouswalls said:

ml1 said:

deborahg said:
Agree...but in that case why not file a complaint

A friend of mine in HS was on his bike and a car ran him off the road. He yelled "f you!" at the driver, who proceeded to pull over, get out of his car, and give my friend a beating. When it went to trial, both were convicted. Because he yelled an obscenity at the driver, my friend was guilty of being a "disorderly person."

I'll bet there is more to that story. Cursing at someone because they run you off the road is not deserving of a beatdown.

But, this incident seems to be started by little more that...

You don't think that someone yelling an obscenity at someone else, who is already being an ***** with their driving, is enough for said ***** to further react over the top?

No, that was my point...

Ah. Sorry.

spontaneous said:
I may be reading it wrong, but my take on @fabulouswalls's comment is that there may be more to the story in regards to them both getting a conviction, not more to the story in regards to the beat down itself

Not really. Sounds like the other lawyer could have quite easily argued that they helped escalate it (and for good measure that the driver was unaware he did what he did), and as a result of that not being disputed, seems logical. The biggest defense in these cases is either the he said/she said approach (with or without a self-defense angle), or a mutual altercation where it's not worth it for either party to proceed given both might come out behind.