No Deal on Brexit

lord_pabulum said:
Taxation without representation.   Way back when in the 70's Britain voted to join the common market (note:common market).  It is no longer a common market just a bastion for Eurocrats to sit on their spotty behinds squeezing blackheads.  The idiots in Brussels don't give a tinker's cuss about the Cumberland sausage.  good riddance to the EU.

 I for one can't wait until that 350 million pounds a week starts flowing back into the NHS, just like they said it would.

ridski said:

basil said:

ridski said:

 I had a chat with my Mum yesterday, who's still a die-hard Brexiteer despite having seen the clustereff they left behind. She blames May for kicking out all the people who "could've done it right" like Dave Davis and Dominic Raab. Then again, I think my Mum voted UKIP in the 2014 European Parliament elections which led to Cameron calling for the referendum as a way to appease UKIP voters at home and keep them on the side of the Tories.

Still, she is my Mum.

Out of curiosity, why does she believe Brexit is a good idea? 

 Because she dropped out of school at age 12 and has never been much of a critical thinker. Her neighborhood has diversified from mostly white with a black and Indian population, to mostly Eastern European, a large handful of which were unemployed and begging in front of cash machines and shopfronts, and she thought this was bad (in reality, it used to be Scottish people and Irish travelers before that... The neighborhood was always a shithole) and blamed Blair and Labour for letting everyone in, thought the UK should shore up the border and stop listening to those pesky EU types who don't live here.

We don't really talk about it much, though, especially after I found out she was seriously considering voting UKIP, so she may have other reasons on top of that.

 I've left the quote in full, because a lot of the sentiments are echoed by a friend who lives in Melbourne but was born in Cornwall. He moved here in the '60s, I believe, worked here and back in the the UK for a while then focused on here. But he's virulently anti-Common Market/EU for all his 'UK should be a republic' talk. 

In his case, he's not an uncritical thinker but very set in his ways. He's proud of being British, not European. He's proud of being curmudgeonly, quirky and insular. He doesn't want to lose the peculiarities of being British in a warm sea of homogenous 'continental urbanity', which I think a lot of people "of a certain age" are fearful is being foisted on them.

They can't quite understand the new opportunities (necessities, really) in the portability of study and work that the EU offers, let alone the other flexibilities and regional strengths that strategic thinkers tend to look for. Even if the world as we know it is changing. (What - no coffee in a couple of decades??? Noooooo!!!)

ridski said:

 I for one can't wait until that 350 million pounds a week starts flowing back into the NHS, just like they said it would.

 When Mexico writes a check for the wall...

No doubt that the leadership elites of the EU have been out of touch with regular working folks in Europe over the past decade.

But is the best solution to arrogant leadership shooting yourself in the face?

Stolen from the interweb

Somewhere In the middle are the three options, but the kicker is the epithet tossed at Cameron at the end.   Love me some Pie. 

https://youtu.be/oFxZ-rPPYd8

basil said:

Robert_Casotto said:
Why should some unelected Flemish autocrat in Brussels dictate what Brit mums should and shouldn’t do.


Believe we on this side of the pond fought a war or two over similar circumstances.

I thought we fought against "taxation without representation" on this side of the pond. The UK is well re-presented in EU/Brussels at the moment, so this must be for a different reason.

 When I worked in NY, I remember paying state tax to NY. I don't remember getting any representation there.

DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

I can't imagine there'd be much public blowback if the government just said "never mind, bad idea".

I think your imagination, in this case, might could use a reboot.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you say that. If I remember correctly, the Brexit vote was close - and with all of the nonsense that's occurred, I'd be surprised if a majority is still in favor. Any chaos that might ensue after a rejection of the referendum couldn't be as bad as what's been going on since the vote.

And jeebus, if they actually do a Brexit with no agreement, I think the population would pretty much demand that the referendum be rejected, within a few days of the ensuing disruption.

BG9 said:

basil said:

Robert_Casotto said:
Why should some unelected Flemish autocrat in Brussels dictate what Brit mums should and shouldn’t do.


Believe we on this side of the pond fought a war or two over similar circumstances.

I thought we fought against "taxation without representation" on this side of the pond. The UK is well re-presented in EU/Brussels at the moment, so this must be for a different reason.

 When I worked in NY, I remember paying state tax to NY. I don't remember getting any representation there.

 Every documented non citizen working here is taxed without representation.

drummerboy said:

DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

I can't imagine there'd be much public blowback if the government just said "never mind, bad idea".

I think your imagination, in this case, might could use a reboot.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you say that. If I remember correctly, the Brexit vote was close - and with all of the nonsense that's occurred, I'd be surprised if a majority is still in favor. Any chaos that might ensue after a rejection of the referendum couldn't be as bad as what's been going on since the vote.
And jeebus, if they actually do a Brexit with no agreement, I think the population would pretty much demand that the referendum be rejected, within a few days of the ensuing disruption.

 Your comment was about blowback. Even a small minority can generate s***loads of blowback. I just think you underestimate what the Brexiteers -- who aren't a small minority -- are capable of if the government said, "Never mind."

ridski said:

 Every documented non citizen working here is taxed without representation.

 At rates that dwarf those before the revolution no less. 

terp said:

ridski said:

 Every documented non citizen working here is taxed without representation.

 At rates that dwarf those before the revolution no less. 

.

This opinion piece says what I have been struggling to express, with much more historical knowledge than I possess, about the ugliness of England’s imperial arrogance and the violence they have visited upon the world. I do know the Irish haven’t forgotten. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html

ridksi - Have you forgotten the evolution of the prime minister position and how the current  parliamentary party system works?

Coffeegretchen said:
This opinion piece says what I have been struggling to express, with much more historical knowledge than I possess, about the ugliness of England’s imperial arrogance and the violence they have visited upon the world. I do know the Irish haven’t forgotten. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html

 Interesting piece of fiction.

lord_pabulum said:

Coffeegretchen said:
This opinion piece says what I have been struggling to express, with much more historical knowledge than I possess, about the ugliness of England’s imperial arrogance and the violence they have visited upon the world. I do know the Irish haven’t forgotten. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html

 Interesting piece of fiction.

 Which part is fiction?

lord_pabulum said:
ridksi - Have you forgotten the evolution of the prime minister position and how the current  parliamentary party system works?

 Have you forgotten that 's' comes before 'k' in ridski?

ridski said:

lord_pabulum said:
ridksi - Have you forgotten the evolution of the prime minister position and how the current  parliamentary party system works?

 Have you forgotten that 's' comes before 'k' in ridski?

 dyslexia rules ko

drummerboy said:

lord_pabulum said:

Coffeegretchen said:
This opinion piece says what I have been struggling to express, with much more historical knowledge than I possess, about the ugliness of England’s imperial arrogance and the violence they have visited upon the world. I do know the Irish haven’t forgotten. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html

 Interesting piece of fiction.

 Which part is fiction?

 "The Brexiteers, pursuing a fantasy of imperial-era strength and self-sufficiency"

https://newsthump.com/2019/01/16/zombies-left-hugely-offended-by-comparisons-to-theresa-mays-government/?fbclid=IwAR1apaj-XrklaTwcTjxAzawoGYTZavaRxT8FKC8vM3zZ6twzv6H0mEESos0

lord_pabulum said:

drummerboy said:

lord_pabulum said:

Coffeegretchen said:
This opinion piece says what I have been struggling to express, with much more historical knowledge than I possess, about the ugliness of England’s imperial arrogance and the violence they have visited upon the world. I do know the Irish haven’t forgotten. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/sunday/brexit-ireland-empire.html

 Interesting piece of fiction.

 Which part is fiction?

 "The Brexiteers, pursuing a fantasy of imperial-era strength and self-sufficiency"

 Really? And what do you think the Brexiteers are pursuing? "a fantasy of imperial-era strength and self-sufficiency" strikes me as pretty dead on - especially the fantasy part.

Kinda like the same fantasy as MAGA.

That's your opinion db.  My opinion is Brussels overreach.  But you tend to muddle facts and opinion.

lord_pabulum said:
That's your opinion db.  My opinion is Brussels overreach.  But you tend to muddle facts and opinion.

People that say that a democratically elected government is overreaching typically mean that the government is making them do stuff that they don't agree with (like pay more taxes, or pay less taxes, or mandate healthcare, or whatever). For example in the US, conservatives would always say all the time that the federal government was overreaching and it should leave this stuff to the states. Of course, now that they control the federal government, they feel the opposite. So it is a very subjective and temporary emotion.

basil said:

lord_pabulum said:
That's your opinion db.  My opinion is Brussels overreach.  But you tend to muddle facts and opinion.

People that say that a democratically elected government is overreaching typically mean that the government is making them do stuff that they don't agree with (like pay more taxes, or pay less taxes, or mandate healthcare, or whatever). For example in the US, conservatives would always say all the time that the federal government was overreaching and it should leave this stuff to the states. Of course, now that they control the federal government, they feel the opposite. So it is a very subjective and temporary emotion.

 That's actually a great argument for decentralization of government.  Having 1 governing body to manage large landmasses with heterogeneous peoples/cultures doesn't scale particularly well.   Even if democratically elected, there are likely to be many who will feel they are not represented and are even being forced to do and pay for things they strongly disagree with.  

First thing I think about whenever it comes to really hard decisioning. — What would some Flemish guy in Brussels do.  Hasn’t failed me yet.

@ridski, have you read/heard this news yet??

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-18/prince-philip-in-car-accident-duke-unharmed/10725170

Fancy being the one trying to tell Phil he has to stop driving....

Robert_Casotto said:
First thing I think about whenever it comes to really hard decisioning. — What would some Flemish guy in Brussels do.  Hasn’t failed me yet.

The "Flemish guy in Brussels" speaks a Dutch dialect - that's what makes him Flemish.  You want to refer to "some French-speaking Eurocrat in Brussels" if you're going to adhere to the techniques of what passes for Right Wing Humor.  

Glad I was able to inform you of this.  As Donald Trump has said, "I love the poorly educated."

I'm not sure anyone has disagreed with the fact that the EU leadership has been out of touch for years with the people of Europe.  But has anyone convincingly argued that Brexit is the proper remedy for that?

It's becoming obvious that there were a lot of things that the pro-Brexit people weren't thinking of.  I suppose if this results in a unified Ireland and an independent Scotland, maybe it will in fact turn out to be a good thing.

lord_pabulum said:
That's your opinion db.  My opinion is Brussels overreach.  But you tend to muddle facts and opinion.

 Sure, it's my "opinion". But some opinions are closely aligned with reality. Some are not.

The entire Brexit rationale during the referendum was based on lies and misinformation. People had no clue what they were voting for. They certainly had no idea whatsoever of the negative consequences to the UK.

During all of the past two years as they tried to cobble together their exit strategy, has even one significant part of the Brexit agreement led to an advantage for the UK?

Sounds pretty close to what constitutes a "fantasy" to me.