DUMP TRUMP (previously 2020 candidates)

drummerboy said:
 If you have to ask the question, I can't possibly answer it to your satisfaction. Suffice to say, it's not normal or good to have a whole generation of young adults start off life with such burdensome debt. And whereas most countries have robust, government funded secondary education to prevent this unhealthy situation, we do not.  That also, is not normal or good.
These kids are victims of being Americans and its deadly, economically conservative bent.

I bet you're not satisfied with that answer, because capitalism!

 Not to mention it isn't a "handout" if you had to work for years earning a degree to receive it. 

dave said:
This just in:   Community lashes out at Buttigieg for failing to deflect tornado that just hit South Bend

 This just in. The View has cancelled Pete Buttigieg. You can watch the video here:

https://twitter.com/RealTimBlack/status/1143405091787067393

paulsurovell said:

DaveSchmidt said:

nan said:
It's not being ignored now.  

 Or two months ago, four days after he announced his candidacy. I already posted this link once. Here it is again.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/us/politics/buttigieg-black-police-chief-fired.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

Since the article two months ago, how much attention has been given to the police chief issue?  Was it ignored -- or almost ignored -- since then?
Disclaimer -- I'm not commenting on the merits of the police chief or the recent police shooting issues, just trying to clarify facts behind the piling on on Nan's comment that the police chief issue has been ignored.

 My point is that the mainstream media mostly gave Mayor Pete a free ride, highlighting his language skills, education and the identity politics of being the first openly gay presidential candidate.  They did write some things about issues in South Bend, but none of them were deep dives.  The alternative press, especially TYT looked much closer and sent reporters to South Bend to investigate.  They found that Pete's explanation of the demoting of the police chief, the secret tapes, general problems in the police department, and his relationship with the poor and homeless and other issues were not so simple, and in some cases much larger on-going problems.  To anyone paying attention, this sudden blow up in South Bend, is no surprise. 

So, moving on to the next example of the DNC acting like the corrupted, elitist institution it is, tickets for the 2020 debates will cost $3,000+.  Some independent media was also denied press passes.  So, expect lots of clapping for centrists, unless I'm wrong and Bernie has big support among the people who can afford $3,000 tickets to one debate or $4,000 for both.

ml1 said:

drummerboy said:
 If you have to ask the question, I can't possibly answer it to your satisfaction. Suffice to say, it's not normal or good to have a whole generation of young adults start off life with such burdensome debt. And whereas most countries have robust, government funded secondary education to prevent this unhealthy situation, we do not.  That also, is not normal or good.
These kids are victims of being Americans and its deadly, economically conservative bent.

I bet you're not satisfied with that answer, because capitalism!

 Not to mention it isn't a "handout" if you had to work for years earning a degree to receive it. 

 A handout is "something given free to a needy person or organization." It's also "anything that a person, government, charity, or other organization freely donates to needy people."

Uh...

ml1 you have said previously that progressives should more stridently and unabashedly support their positions. So I would think progressives would take this opportunity to say, I support the redistribution of income that #CancelStudentDebt represents, and I believe the government should give $1.6 trillion to college graduates who have outstanding loan balances. 

I recognize that the word 'handout' has a negative connotation and I don't expect progressives to use it in their own references to #CancelStudentDebt. But at the same time denying that it is a handout flies in the face of the definition of the word IMO.   

So, is free High School a hand out?  Or is it a right?

Smedley said:
 A handout is "something given free to a needy person or organization." It's also "anything that a person, government, charity, or other organization freely donates to needy people."

Uh...
ml1 you have said previously that progressives should more stridently and unabashedly support their positions. So I would think progressives would take this opportunity to say, I support the redistribution of income that #CancelStudentDebt represents, and I believe the government should give $1.6 trillion to college graduates who have outstanding loan balances. 
I recognize that the word 'handout' has a negative connotation and I don't expect progressives to use it in their own references to #CancelStudentDebt. But at the same time denying that it is a handout flies in the face of the definition of the word IMO.   

 it's not a donation if it requires people to work. So it doesn't fly in the face of the definition. 

nan said:
 This just in. The View has cancelled Pete Buttigieg. You can watch the video here:
https://twitter.com/RealTimBlack/status/1143405091787067393

 What do you meant they "Cancelled" him - when was he scheduled to be on?  Link?

nan said:
So, moving on to the next example of the DNC acting like the corrupted, elitist institution it is, tickets for the 2020 debates will cost $3,000+.  Some independent media was also denied press passes.  So, expect lots of clapping for centrists, unless I'm wrong and Bernie has big support among the people who can afford $3,000 tickets to one debate or $4,000 for both.

 Yes, some tickets are being used for fundraising by the local party organization.  Others were distributed to representatives of local Florida political groups, for example: the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition, which was behind the voting rights restoration amendment; also, "CLEO Institute founder Caroline Lewis said she and others from the Miami-based climate action non-profit were invited, despite not being major donors to the party"; also, "Susan Glickman, a longtime lobbyist and current Florida director of the Southern Alliance for Clean Energy, will also be attending. She said she was surprised to see the invite pop up in her email inbox, as she is not a donor to the DNC"; among others. There was also a ticket lottery.

Link to news story setting forth relevant facts: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article231560838.html

Bottom line: don't trust what gets put out by Jimmy Dore and base an argument on it.  

Klinker said:
So, is free High School a hand out?  Or is it a right?

and are college scholarships "handouts"?

ml1 said:

Klinker said:
So, is free High School a hand out?  Or is it a right?

and are college scholarships "handouts"?

What do you tell the families that made sacrifices and other tough choices so that their children could graduate from college with minimal debt?

jamie said:
 What do you meant they "Cancelled" him - when was he scheduled to be on?  Link?

 I meant that metaphorically. And I still can't stand any of them. 

ml1 said:
 it's not a donation if it requires people to work. So it doesn't fly in the face of the definition. 

 I'm not sure what you mean by "work" here. I'm guessing you mean completing the coursework in school (not working a job for money while in school or after graduation)?  If so, the reward for doing that work is knowledge and a degree that affords you opportunities upon graduation. That is the quid pro quo. It was not stipulated that if you attain your degree, your debt would be paid off. So the government decree Bernie and Liz are proposing is indeed a donation. 

DaveSchmidt said:

ml1 said:

Klinker said:
So, is free High School a hand out?  Or is it a right?

and are college scholarships "handouts"?

What do you tell the families that made sacrifices and other tough choices so that their children could graduate from college with minimal debt?

 Why do we have to tell them anything? (I happen to fall into that category.)

nohero said:
 Yes, some tickets are being used for fundraising by the local party organization.  Others were distributed to representatives of local Florida political groups, for example: the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition, which was behind the voting rights restoration amendment; also, "CLEO Institute founder Caroline Lewis said she and others from the Miami-based climate action non-profit were invited, despite not being major donors to the party"; also, "Susan Glickman, a longtime lobbyist and current Florida director of the Southern Alliance for Clean Energy, will also be attending. She said she was surprised to see the invite pop up in her email inbox, as she is not a donor to the DNC"; among others. There was also a ticket lottery.
Link to news story setting forth relevant facts: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article231560838.html
Bottom line: don't trust what gets put out by Jimmy Dore and base an argument on it.  

 Dore discussed the tickets going to others and a large number were being distributed to various groups and local politicians without the number going to each disclosed.  Bottom line is most attending have big resources.

DaveSchmidt said:

ml1 said:

Klinker said:
So, is free High School a hand out?  Or is it a right?

and are college scholarships "handouts"?

What do you tell the families that made sacrifices and other tough choices so that their children could graduate from college with minimal debt?

 And what do you tell young people who graduated with debt but worked hard to pay it off?  Sorry suckers, you should have waited for Bernie to come riding through on the gravy train? 

jamie said:
 What do you meant they "Cancelled" him - when was he scheduled to be on?  Link?

 It's a term all the kids are using these days to mean dismiss or reject When I was a kid, we "blanked" people, now they "cancel" people. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cancelled

Smedley said:
 And what do you tell young people who graduated with debt but worked hard to pay it off?  Sorry suckers, you should have waited for Bernie to come riding through on the gravy train? 

 If recreational marijuana becomes legalized, we face a similar question. Do we release everyone who was imprisoned for possession? Do we commute their sentences. Do we owe them something for removing their freedom?

I mean, we could just say "government grant funded tertiary education for those starting in 2021*" and leave those who started in 2019 in a ton of debt, or we could help out those in debt, by wiping some of it out and giving young people 20th century-style disposable income that has disappeared.

*Subject to income, used for in-state colleges if grades qualify for college, and returnable upon dropout under certain circumstances. (This is the system I grew up with)

Smedley said:

DaveSchmidt said:

ml1 said:

Klinker said:
So, is free High School a hand out?  Or is it a right?

and are college scholarships "handouts"?

What do you tell the families that made sacrifices and other tough choices so that their children could graduate from college with minimal debt?

 And what do you tell young people who graduated with debt but worked hard to pay it off?  Sorry suckers, you should have waited for Bernie to come riding through on the gravy train? 

Again, why do we have to tell them anything? Why do we owe them an explanation? Are they too stupid to figure it out? Yes, they might feel disappointed. Tough noogies.

Yep. Tough noogies to those who make good decisions, work hard and achieve. Free stuff for everyone else. The progressive way.

drummerboy said:

 Why do we have to tell them anything? (I happen to fall into that category.)

Me, too. But I think some of them will have questions, even if you and I don’t. I suppose they could be ignored or dismissed. It might make more sense, though, to have an answer ready.

ridski said:

Smedley said:
 And what do you tell young people who graduated with debt but worked hard to pay it off?  Sorry suckers, you should have waited for Bernie to come riding through on the gravy train? 

 or we could help out those in debt, by wiping some of it out and giving young people 20th century-style disposable income that has disappeared.

When someone suggests the only option is mass debt cancellation, help in wiping some of it out sounds like another alternative.

[Edited because I misunderstood Smedley’s comment.]

ridski said:

Smedley said:
 And what do you tell young people who graduated with debt but worked hard to pay it off?  Sorry suckers, you should have waited for Bernie to come riding through on the gravy train? 

 If recreational marijuana becomes legalized, we face a similar question. Do we release everyone who was imprisoned for possession? Do we commute their sentences. Do we owe them something for removing their freedom?

I mean, we could just say "government grant funded tertiary education for those starting in 2021*" and leave those who started in 2019 in a ton of debt, or we could help out those in debt, by wiping some of it out and giving young people 20th century-style disposable income that has disappeared.

*Subject to income, used for in-state colleges if grades qualify for college, and returnable upon dropout under certain circumstances. (This is the system I grew up with)

 My understanding is that in NJ, the marijuana ("mj") possession people who are in jail are those who had possession of more than 50g of mj with an intent to distribute.  To me, the "intent to distribute" is the key on how such mj possession persons should be treated.  IMHO, conviction is for pure possession then set them free; whereas if the conviction is for possession with intent to distribute, then no change in sentence.

nan said:

nohero said:
 Yes, some tickets are being used for fundraising by the local party organization.  Others were distributed to representatives of local Florida political groups, for example: the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition, which was behind the voting rights restoration amendment; also, "CLEO Institute founder Caroline Lewis said she and others from the Miami-based climate action non-profit were invited, despite not being major donors to the party"; also, "Susan Glickman, a longtime lobbyist and current Florida director of the Southern Alliance for Clean Energy, will also be attending. She said she was surprised to see the invite pop up in her email inbox, as she is not a donor to the DNC"; among others. There was also a ticket lottery.
Link to news story setting forth relevant facts: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article231560838.html
Bottom line: don't trust what gets put out by Jimmy Dore and base an argument on it.  

 Dore discussed the tickets going to others and a large number were being distributed to various groups and local politicians without the number going to each disclosed.  Bottom line is most attending have big resources.

 Bottom line is Dore's viewers get "punked" by him.

[Edited to add] My original response was to this statement by Ms. Nan: "So, moving on to the next example of the DNC acting like the corrupted, elitist institution it is, tickets for the 2020 debates will cost $3,000+."

Smedley said:
Yep. Tough noogies to those who make good decisions, work hard and achieve. Free stuff for everyone else. The progressive way.

 yeesh. I suppose you believe we're a meritocracy huh? It's all about hard work and personal responsibility, huh? If you fail it's because you suck at life.

yeesh.

nan said:

 My point is that the mainstream media mostly gave Mayor Pete a free ride, highlighting his language skills, education and the identity politics of being the first openly gay presidential candidate.  They did write some things about issues in South Bend, but none of them were deep dives.  The alternative press, especially TYT looked much closer and sent reporters to South Bend to investigate.  They found that Pete's explanation of the demoting of the police chief, the secret tapes, general problems in the police department, and his relationship with the poor and homeless and other issues were not so simple, and in some cases much larger on-going problems.  To anyone paying attention, this sudden blow up in South Bend, is no surprise. 

Paying attention to the Times article was enough to make the past week’s events in South Bend no surprise to me. (Because of that, “sudden” is not an adjective I’d use to describe them.)

The Young Turks pieces — of a mother who faults Buttigieg for not helping her get county officials to reopen an investigation into her son’s hanging, and of an allegation that Buttigieg fired a city attorney for not preventing a state police investigation of a racially based complaint against one of his police chiefs — were deep dives into shallow water and didn’t add to my understanding.

proeasdf said:
 My understanding is that in NJ, the marijuana ("mj") possession people who are in jail are those who had possession of more than 50g of mj with an intent to distribute.  To me, the "intent to distribute" is the key on how such mj possession persons should be treated.  IMHO, conviction is for pure possession then set them free; whereas if the conviction is for possession with intent to distribute, then no change in sentence.

 Also, Cory Booker's bill would expunge records of those prosecuted and allow for those incarcerated to plea for shortened sentences.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/cory-booker-introduces-bill-to-legalize-marijuana-nationwide.html

Co-sponsors of the bill, known as the Marijuana Justice Act, include fellow 2020 Democratic contenders Sens. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, Bernie Sanders of Vermont, Kamala Harris of California and Kirsten Gillibrand of New York. Booker first introduced the bill in 2017, but it was not taken up for a vote.

drummerboy said:
 yeesh. I suppose you believe we're a meritocracy huh? It's all about hard work and personal responsibility, huh? If you fail it's because you suck at life.

yeesh.

Eighteen-year-olds and their parents should be able to predict what salary they're going to make when they graduate from college.  And they shouldn't be majoring in loser disciplines like art history or philosophy.   

Regardless, what gets overlooked in these discussions is that the rationale behind student loan debt forgiveness or "free college" is that it's an investment in the larger economy.  It would be a huge economic stimulus and would presumably help all of us.

The reasons for investing in human infrastructure are NOT about "compassion" or "handouts".  The main reason is that investing in our people via universal health care, decent pensions and affordable education is that it maximizes the potential of our entire population.  We would be doing those things because they're smart and efficient, not because we want to be "nice" or "compassionate."

And if we don't do those things out of resentment that other people are going to get stuff we didn't get, or aren't going to get, then shame on us for letting the worst of human nature prevent us from doing the best we're capable of.

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:
Yep. Tough noogies to those who make good decisions, work hard and achieve. Free stuff for everyone else. The progressive way.

 yeesh. I suppose you believe we're a meritocracy huh? It's all about hard work and personal responsibility, huh? If you fail it's because you suck at life.

yeesh.

 Yes that's precisely my POV, just like I suppose you believe in a classless communist society. There's no in-between.

yeesh.

ml1 said:

And if we don't do those things out of resentment that other people are going to get stuff we didn't get, or aren't going to get, then shame on us for letting the worst of human nature prevent us from doing the best we're capable of.

 Speaking specifically to the student loan cancellation, here's where I disagree. I don't oppose the plan out of resentment. I oppose it because I think it sends the wrong message and sets the wrong economic incentives (or disincentives), and it starts down a slippery slope that government takes care of everything. At some point that all collapses under its own weight.

So my opposition is not because Im Mr. Grinch, and there's no "shame on me". My opposition is based on my view of how we maximize the potential of our entire population, which is different than yours.  

Smedley said:
Yep. Tough noogies to those who make good decisions, work hard and achieve. Free stuff for everyone else. The progressive way.

 Is Bankruptcy "free stuff' If I borrow a very large sum to start a business and then don't make a go of it and declare bankruptcy have I received "free stuff"?

Would you be OK with allowing student loans to be dischargeable in bankruptcy like any other debt?