"Restorative circles" WTF.

We just need to make sure that in the quest for improving disciplinary outcomes that we don't trample on victims rights. The case described in the letter to the Village Green sure seems like assault to me. I seem remember at the time, the father of the girl just wanted it to stop and wasn't out to ruin the lives of the boys. Good for him. I don't think I would be so inclined.

So I understand the interest in finding better ways to discipline kids in some cases (disruptive behavior, some cases of fighting, etc.), but in cases of assault the perpetrators should be out of the school.

xavier67 said:

breal said:
The first duty is to defend and protect the victim of the wrong conduct. Therapeutic efforts for the offenders comes second. Efforts to equate the two duties, or to make the middle school victims responsible for reforming the middle school offenders, make me crazy. Hint: Those girls don't want to be around the boys who have demeaned them. Forced linkage by the school as part of the boys' therapy is a further abuse, even though it would be free labor. Hint: The girls are not tools to help the boys, and they are not body parts. They are humans in full, trying to walk down the hall.
An adult needs to mete out a real consequence to the boys that doesn't involve a lot of talking. Let the offenders beautify that hallway where the ugly you-are-a-body-part conduct happened.

Uh, restorative circles are meant to be therapeutic for the victims as well as to bring some sense to the offenders. And it's purely voluntary for the victims to participate.

That may be true in general, but if you are scheduling a period a week for these discussions, I don't think this is going to be voluntary in practice. However, we are mixing up some terms here...when you deliberately bring victims and offenders together it is "restorative justice", rather than the restorative circles by homeroom being discussed here.

Even so, I'm concerned if the new approach to the problems that MMS had last year is to put the burden of consciousness raising on tween girls. I hope this is only the most visible part of a broader approach.

It will hurt those boys -- and of course, those girls -- if no adult backs those boys right up. The boys are better than that. They are asking for an adult to reinforce that they are better than that.

And it would be bad for the girls to internalize a message that they should just accept being acted upon because the school can't/won't hold the actors to a higher standard

Isn't this the same school that established a dress code for the girls, but not the boys? Seems they already established the burden of boys' behavior on the girls.

breal said:
And it would be bad for the girls to internalize a message that they should just accept being acted upon because the school can't/won't hold the actors to a higher standard

That seems to be the message to victims thus far whether it is sexual harassment/groping/assault or bully coaches. So much emphasis is placed on restorative measures that the victims get short shrift.

soorlady said:
Isn't this the same school that established a dress code for the girls, but not the boys? Seems they already established the burden of boys' behavior on the girls.

No. The code was for both.

I was thinking that the circles are for general behavior issues and not in response to the sexual assault(s). I think this is a confusing age for the kids, there's a lot going on, and that there are plenty of questionable behaviors. I think it'll be good for the kids to address and talk issues they are addressing (i.e. my friends changed lunch tables on me....)

So when girls are victims of gang sexual assault, their fathers should expect an opportunity to volunteer and the tween girls should expect to be invited to make a power point presentation explaining why it's not right to grab people's breasts and say "let me get up in that"?

Just want to be sure I have this right before I call the administration cowards and incompetents.

Just want to be sure the message is right- "Girls, your person matters and you are valuable- but not quite as valuable as keeping discipline records in line with the expectation of men outside the school- in that case, lie back and think of your administrator's careers."

War on women indeed

I am a mother of three boys, no girls, and I still find it appalling that sexual assault is being downplayed as "harassment" and that these young men are not being held accountable for their actions. These young women who are already dealing with changing bodies, self esteem issues, society expectations for appropriate expression of sexual self, etc, are basically being told that the boy's futures are more important than their rights as women to even walk down a hallway without being sexually assaulted.

Zero consequence doesn't work. Discipline might.

But at least the Parenting Center has an information session scheduled on Restorative Practices.

In December.

I can only hope that MMS parents are getting better information on this than what I've seen.

Again, does anyone know what actions the police/legal system took against these boys?

This situation horrifies me. If I had a daughter in that school, private education would be looking awfully good about now. The administrators should be deeply ashamed of themselves.

ParticleMan said:
Again, does anyone know what actions the police/legal system took against these boys?

If I read correctly in the article, the first two assaults the police were not even involved.

spontaneous said:

ParticleMan said:
Again, does anyone know what actions the police/legal system took against these boys?

If I read correctly in the article, the first two assaults the police were not even involved.

I think he's asking if anyone knows what actions were taken when the Police were called (as the article states "In one incident, Maplewood Middle School administration called the police and filed a report.")

tjohn said:

So I understand the interest in finding better ways to discipline kids in some cases (disruptive behavior, some cases of fighting, etc.), but in cases of assault the perpetrators should be out of the school.

I'm just curious what this means. Where should these 11, 12, 13 year old boys be sent? To a juvenile detention facility? And if so, for how long -- the rest of their academic lives?

sprout said:

I'm just curious what this means. Where should these 11, 12, 13 year old boys be sent? To a juvenile detention facility? And if so, for how long -- the rest of their academic lives?

You tell me. Our responsibility to the victims exceeds our responsibility to the boys doing this sort of thing.

sprout said:

spontaneous said:

ParticleMan said:
Again, does anyone know what actions the police/legal system took against these boys?

If I read correctly in the article, the first two assaults the police were not even involved.

I think he's asking if anyone knows what actions were taken when the Police were called (as the article states "In one incident, Maplewood Middle School administration called the police and filed a report.")

tjohn said:

So I understand the interest in finding better ways to discipline kids in some cases (disruptive behavior, some cases of fighting, etc.), but in cases of assault the perpetrators should be out of the school.

I'm just curious what this means. Where should these 11, 12, 13 year old boys be sent? To a juvenile detention facility? And if so, for how long -- the rest of their academic lives?

I am not sure but it was sexual harassment. It is a very serious crime and should be dealt with in a serious manner.

It wasn't harassment, it was assault. The school is attempting to downplay it by calling it harassment

spontaneous said:
It wasn't harassment, it was assault. The school is attempting to downplay it by calling it harassment

if it was assault (which I'm not doubting), why have the boys not been arrested and prosecuted? The school does not determine what is harassment and what is assault. Those are legal terms.

ParticleMan said:

spontaneous said:
It wasn't harassment, it was assault. The school is attempting to downplay it by calling it harassment

if it was assault (which I'm not doubting), why have the boys not been arrested and prosecuted? The school does not determine what is harassment and what is assault. Those are legal terms.

As reported by the father, in NJ it's criminal sexual context, which is a felony, which triggers Meghan's Law reporting for offenders. It's not Mickey Mouse- the statute covers exactly the sort of situation alleged.

If earlier incidents were reported to the administration but not law enforcement, as was noted in the prior thread that is also illegal.

As to whether it would wreck the boy's lives, juvenile records are generally sealed- but when they're not it's because the crime merits it. The crimes, as alleged, are deadly serious and not just boys "clowning" or "being boys". If they're too stupid to figure that out, or so impulsive they're incapable of controlling themselves then no, they don't belong in a normal learning environment.

tjohn said:

sprout said:

I'm just curious what this means. Where should these 11, 12, 13 year old boys be sent? To a juvenile detention facility? And if so, for how long -- the rest of their academic lives?

You tell me. Our responsibility to the victims exceeds our responsibility to the boys doing this sort of thing.

If the youth in question cannot figure out how to function correctly in the current setting, there are a range of possible out-of-district placements designed to help youth who have behavioral (or emotional) issues that are not manageable in the current setting. MMS and juvenile detention are not the only choices.

Jackson_Fusion said:
The crimes, as alleged, are deadly serious and not just boys "clowning" or "being boys". If they're too stupid to figure that out, or so impulsive they're incapable of controlling themselves then no, they don't belong in a normal learning environment.

susan1014 said:
If the youth in question cannot figure out how to function correctly in the current setting, there are a range of possible out-of-district placements designed to help youth who have behavioral (or emotional) issues that are not manageable in the current setting. MMS and juvenile detention are not the only choices.

Ok, while I remain super skeptical of the whole restorative circle concept, which I agree sounds like making the victims explain why their abuse was inappropriate to offenders, still the above suggestions that the boys "cannot figure out" how to behave or are "too stupid to figure that out" just seems to me to let the adults in charge of the middle school off the hook too much.

Was appropriate and inappropriate behavior clearly explained to all the students? More importantly, were the rules consistently enforced? I remain disturbed by the initial account that a teacher witnessed physical harassment and did nothing. When authority turns a blind eye, that tells the students/kids that the adults don't really mean what they say about rules and expectations.

It's not that the boys shouldn't be held accountable - they should. But so should the building leadership, the administration and teaching staff need to be responsible for maintaining rules that set the climate and culture of the building. If behavior expectations are not clearly stated, and consistently enforced, and there's not some serious work to get buy in from the students regarding those expectations, then it's just not fair to put all the blame on some immature, young adolescent middle school boys. The adults in the building need to be accountable.

Agreed

When I was a teacher, the law was that a teacher and administrator had a legal obligation to report abuse to law enforcement. Those contacts were abuse.

finnegan said:

Jackson_Fusion said:
The crimes, as alleged, are deadly serious and not just boys "clowning" or "being boys". If they're too stupid to figure that out, or so impulsive they're incapable of controlling themselves then no, they don't belong in a normal learning environment.

susan1014 said:
If the youth in question cannot figure out how to function correctly in the current setting, there are a range of possible out-of-district placements designed to help youth who have behavioral (or emotional) issues that are not manageable in the current setting. MMS and juvenile detention are not the only choices.

Ok, while I remain super skeptical of the whole restorative circle concept, which I agree sounds like making the victims explain why their abuse was inappropriate to offenders, still the above suggestions that the boys "cannot figure out" how to behave or are "too stupid to figure that out" just seems to me to let the adults in charge of the middle school off the hook too much.
Was appropriate and inappropriate behavior clearly explained to all the students? More importantly, were the rules consistently enforced? I remain disturbed by the initial account that a teacher witnessed physical harassment and did nothing. When authority turns a blind eye, that tells the students/kids that the adults don't really mean what they say about rules and expectations.
It's not that the boys shouldn't be held accountable - they should. But so should the building leadership, the administration and teaching staff need to be responsible for maintaining rules that set the climate and culture of the building. If behavior expectations are not clearly stated, and consistently enforced, and there's not some serious work to get buy in from the students regarding those expectations, then it's just not fair to put all the blame on some immature, young adolescent middle school boys. The adults in the building need to be accountable.

I hear you, and by no means do I think the administration should be given a pass. My comments were in response to suggestions that it may not be worth messing up the boy's lives. As I mentioned, my major uncertainty was whether they were, I believe, cowards or incompetents, should the incidents be as alleged

And come on- if a person need someone to tell them assaulting a girl with their friends and telling her "let me get up in that" is prima facie wrong (not inappropriate, not problematic, not troubling- wrong) no circle is going to solve their problems, at least not in short order.

Dare I ask where the parents of the offending boys enter into this scenario? If they are raising their sons to believe this kind of behavior is okay, or at least okay as long as you get away with it, what on earth are kids learning at home? I always thought that was where our core values come from.

PeggyC said:
Dare I ask where the parents of the offending boys enter into this scenario? If they are raising their sons to believe this kind of behavior is okay, or at least okay as long as you get away with it, what on earth are kids learning at home? I always thought that was where our core values come from.

As became apparent when my 10 year old son recently squeezed my butt, out of nowhere, there are lots of things learned either outside the home, or seen in a context when it was appropriate (my spouse and I may not always be as discreet as we think we are), or just something his immature brain thought he'd test out.

sprout said:

PeggyC said:
Dare I ask where the parents of the offending boys enter into this scenario? If they are raising their sons to believe this kind of behavior is okay, or at least okay as long as you get away with it, what on earth are kids learning at home? I always thought that was where our core values come from.

As became apparent when my 10 year old son recently squeezed my butt, out of nowhere, there are lots of things learned either outside the home, or seen in a context when it was appropriate (my spouse and I may not always be as discreet as we think we are), or just something his immature brain thought he'd test out.

I would agree which is why clear and consistently enforced policies are need to guide the adolescent through middle school and high school.

tjohn said:

sprout said:

PeggyC said:
Dare I ask where the parents of the offending boys enter into this scenario? If they are raising their sons to believe this kind of behavior is okay, or at least okay as long as you get away with it, what on earth are kids learning at home? I always thought that was where our core values come from.

As became apparent when my 10 year old son recently squeezed my butt, out of nowhere, there are lots of things learned either outside the home, or seen in a context when it was appropriate (my spouse and I may not always be as discreet as we think we are), or just something his immature brain thought he'd test out.

I would agree which is why clear and consistently enforced policies are need to guide the adolescent through middle school and high school.

I don't think there is any disagreement on that.