Who Meddled more Putin or Trump? The Collusion Thread visits Venezuela
Mar 31, 2019 at 4:48pm Edited
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:I stopped here. I've already pointed you to materials on the Constitution of Venezuela and the last election. So the "who needs elections" line was written for the ignorant. His argument based on the pictures has a similar intended audience.
https://www.gregpalast.com/in-venezuela-white-supremacy-is-a-key-to-trump-coup/
In Venezuela, White Supremacy is a Key to Trump’s CoupFebruary 8, 2019
Greg PalastOn January 23, right after a phone call from Donald Trump, Juan Guaidó, former speaker of Venezuela’s National Assembly, declared himself president. No voting. When you have official recognition from The Donald, who needs elections?
[Edited to add] Take a closer look at your two pictures of the groups of people. Both photos were taken on the same set of stairs. In the one with the "darker" people, the pillars are also darker, the back walls are also darker, and the gold of the crest on the back wall is also darker. It's almost as if the whole picture was reproduced so that the subjects looked darker than in the other one.
Denial that a group of elected officials are predominantly people of color vs another group that is predominantly white is such a white suburban American thing to do.
paulsurovell said:
Denial that a group of elected officials are predominantly people of color vs another group that is predominantly white is such a white suburban American thing to do.
I said I'm not going to rely on pictures where you can hardly make out the faces, and where the picture claiming to show more people of color is obviously reproduced darker than the other one. In other words, the "OJ treatment". See comparison below.
The fact that your "source" doesn't bother to get any information about these people as individuals, but just says "See how they look", says something about him and anyone who relies on him.
Was I meant to count the women in the two photos? Because I’m tempted to count the women.
Are the Trump coup supporters really trying to deny that the Venezuelan opposition is based in the whiter upper class and that Maduro's support is predominantly among the darker lower classes?
https://www.voanews.com/a/are-race-and-class-at-the-root-of-venezuelas-political-crisis/1886458.html
Apr 1, 2019 at 12:16pm Edited
paulsurovell said:
Are the Trump coup supporters really trying to deny that the Venezuelan opposition is based in the whiter upper class and that Maduro's support is predominantly among the darker lower classes?
https://www.voanews.com/a/are-race-and-class-at-the-root-of-venezuelas-political-crisis/1886458.html
The article you cite doesn't come down either way on whether race, or race and class, is a factor. Certainly not to the extent you have, pushing forward that article entitled "In Venezuela, White Supremacy is a Key to Trump’s Coup", based on those pictures.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:The article you cite doesn't come down either way on whether race, or race and class, is a factor. Certainly not to the extent you have, pushing forward that article entitled "In Venezuela, White Supremacy is a Key to Trump’s Coup", based on those pictures.
Are the Trump coup supporters really trying to deny that the Venezuelan opposition is based in the whiter upper class and that Maduro's support is predominantly among the darker lower classes?
https://www.voanews.com/a/are-race-and-class-at-the-root-of-venezuelas-political-crisis/1886458.html
The VOA article establishes the fact of a whiter wealthy class and a darker lower class. It's well known that the opposition is based in the wealthy class.
The pictures -- which clearly show a whiter opposition and a darker Chavista assembly -- are one part of the Palast article. The author's reporting is another. And I'm sure in your desire to smear the author, you've learned that Greg Palast is a leading activist for racial justice in America, especially in the voter suppression field.
Palast knows a thing or two about white supremacy and how it plays out in Venezuela. And no one should be surprised that Trump wants to put the whiter, richer Venezuelans back in power. It's unfortunate that you are supporting him in this effort.
sbenois said:
Nothing like using a doctored photo to make a point.
The only doctored photo was the one you posted.
Um, the only one posted was by me - edited to make the color more correct based on the green background.
The photo that was used in the article - is not color accurate for the very reasons Nohero noted. He is completely correct.
sbenois said:
Um, the only one posted was by me - edited to make the color more correct based on the green background.
The photo that was used in the article - is not color accurate for the very reasons Nohero noted. He is completely correct.
"Edited" --> weasel word for "doctored"
Actually Pauil, there is no mystery here. My post CLEARLY said right at the top that is is corrected. It still does. I thought that I would do a service by attempting to correct the photo based on the green background.
But thanks for once again playing your idiotic parsing games.
“The effect of the sanctions is continuing and cumulative. It’s sort of like in Star Wars when Darth Vader constricts somebody’s throat, that’s what we are doing to the regime economically,” said one senior Trump administration official who briefed a small group of reporters on Friday."Regime" is code-word for "Venezuela." Sanctions that are designed to cause suffering and death among the Venezuelan people. Brought to you by Trump, Bolton, "Death Squad" Abrams and the Democratic leadership.
sbenois said:
Actually Pauil, there is no mystery here. My post CLEARLY said right at the top that is is corrected. It still does. I thought that I would do a service by attempting to correct the photo based on the green background.
But thanks for once again playing
"Corrected" is "doctored."
sbenois said:
your idiotic parsing games.
Snake hissing.
China schools the Trump-Bolton-Democratic international outlaws:
https://www.newsweek.com/china-us-venezuela-russia-troops-backyard-1375871
White House national security adviser John Bolton tweeted Monday that the U.S. "will not tolerate hostile foreign military powers meddling" within the Western Hemisphere.
[ . . . ]
Asked about these developments, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Geng Shuang told a press briefing Tuesday that "countries in the Western Hemisphere, including Latin American countries, are all sovereign states," so "they have the right to determine their own foreign policy and their way to engage in mutually beneficial cooperation with countries of their own choosing."
[ . . . ]
"Regarding the Venezuela issue, we want to stress that it can only be resolved by the Venezuelan people, and stability is in the interests of Venezuela and the region," Geng told reporters. "China would like to work with the international community to help Venezuela restore stability at an early date. Meanwhile, we will continue to advance friendly and mutually beneficial cooperation with Latin American countries.
"Latin American affairs are not a certain country's exclusive business, nor is Latin America a certain country's backyard," he added.
Humanitarian aid:
China delivers medical supplies to Venezuela.
paulsurovell said:
Humanitarian aid:
China delivers medical supplies to Venezuela.
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-03/30/c_137936244.htm
China has been helping Maduro keep control in other ways.
In April 2008, former Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez dispatched Justice Ministry officials to visit counterparts in the Chinese technology hub of Shenzhen. Their mission, according to a member of the Venezuela delegation, was to learn the workings of China’s national identity card program.
Chávez, a decade into his self-styled socialist revolution, wanted help to provide ID credentials to the millions of Venezuelans who still lacked basic documentation needed for tasks like voting or opening a bank account. Once in Shenzhen, though, the Venezuelans realized a card could do far more than just identify the recipient.
There, at the headquarters of Chinese telecom giant ZTE Corp, they learned how China, using smart cards, was developing a system that would help Beijing track social, political and economic behavior. Using vast databases to store information gathered with the card’s use, a government could monitor everything from a citizen’s personal finances to medical history and voting activity.
You may or may not have heard of China's social credit system, which is use of 21st century technology to more closely track and control people. Maduro has been implementing the system in Venezuela.
The project languished. But 10 years after the Shenzhen trip, Venezuela is rolling out a new, smart-card ID known as the “carnet de la patria,” or “fatherland card.” The ID transmits data about cardholders to computer servers. The card is increasingly linked by the government to subsidized food, health and other social programs most Venezuelans rely on to survive.
And ZTE, whose role in the fatherland project is detailed here for the first time, is at the heart of the program.
As part of a $70 million government effort to bolster “national security,” Venezuela last year hired ZTE to build a fatherland database and create a mobile payment system for use with the card, according to contracts reviewed by Reuters. A team of ZTE employees is now embedded in a special unit within Cantv, the Venezuelan state telecommunications company that manages the database, according to four current and former Cantv employees.
The fatherland card is troubling some citizens and human-rights groups who believe it is a tool for Chávez’s successor, President Nicolás Maduro, to monitor the populace and allocate scarce resources to his loyalists.
Link: How ZTE helps Venezuela create China-style social control
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:China has been helping Maduro keep control in other ways.
Humanitarian aid:
China delivers medical supplies to Venezuela.
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-03/30/c_137936244.htm
In April 2008, former Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez dispatched Justice Ministry officials to visit counterparts in the Chinese technology hub of Shenzhen. Their mission, according to a member of the Venezuela delegation, was to learn the workings of China’s national identity card program.You may or may not have heard of China's social credit system, which is use of 21st century technology to more closely track and control people. Maduro has been implementing the system in Venezuela.
Chávez, a decade into his self-styled socialist revolution, wanted help to provide ID credentials to the millions of Venezuelans who still lacked basic documentation needed for tasks like voting or opening a bank account. Once in Shenzhen, though, the Venezuelans realized a card could do far more than just identify the recipient.
There, at the headquarters of Chinese telecom giant ZTE Corp, they learned how China, using smart cards, was developing a system that would help Beijing track social, political and economic behavior. Using vast databases to store information gathered with the card’s use, a government could monitor everything from a citizen’s personal finances to medical history and voting activity.
The project languished. But 10 years after the Shenzhen trip, Venezuela is rolling out a new, smart-card ID known as the “carnet de la patria,” or “fatherland card.” The ID transmits data about cardholders to computer servers. The card is increasingly linked by the government to subsidized food, health and other social programs most Venezuelans rely on to survive.Link: How ZTE helps Venezuela create China-style social control
And ZTE, whose role in the fatherland project is detailed here for the first time, is at the heart of the program.
As part of a $70 million government effort to bolster “national security,” Venezuela last year hired ZTE to build a fatherland database and create a mobile payment system for use with the card, according to contracts reviewed by Reuters. A team of ZTE employees is now embedded in a special unit within Cantv, the Venezuelan state telecommunications company that manages the database, according to four current and former Cantv employees.
The fatherland card is troubling some citizens and human-rights groups who believe it is a tool for Chávez’s successor, President Nicolás Maduro, to monitor the populace and allocate scarce resources to his loyalists.
Now you're going after Chavez as well. Not surprising since your coup leader Abrams was involved in that attempt as well. You're just a cheerleader for Yankee Imperialism.
And any Venezuelan leader who did not take steps for national security in the face of sanctions and threats of invasion would be irresponsible.
paulsurovell said:
Now you're going after Chavez as well. Not surprising since your coup leader Abrams was involved in that attempt as well. You're just a cheerleader for Yankee Imperialism.
And any Venezuelan leader who did not take steps for national security in the face of sanctions and threats of invasion would be irresponsible.
Actually, as described in the article, this is being implemented under Maduro. You're endorsing the type of social control that used to only exist in dystopian literature like "1984".
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:Actually, as described in the article, this is being implemented under Maduro. You're endorsing the type of social control that used to only exist in dystopian literature like "1984".
Now you're going after Chavez as well. Not surprising since your coup leader Abrams was involved in that attempt as well. You're just a cheerleader for Yankee Imperialism.
And any Venezuelan leader who did not take steps for national security in the face of sanctions and threats of invasion would be irresponsible.
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones
paulsurovell said:Actually, as described in the article, this is being implemented under Maduro. You're endorsing the type of social control that used to only exist in dystopian literature like "1984".
Now you're going after Chavez as well. Not surprising since your coup leader Abrams was involved in that attempt as well. You're just a cheerleader for Yankee Imperialism.
And any Venezuelan leader who did not take steps for national security in the face of sanctions and threats of invasion would be irresponsible.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/democrats-just-handed-trump-more-domestic-surveillance-powers-they-should-ncna836836
You're rightly concerned about US domestic surveillance, but not concerned at all about the Maduro regime's attempt at more intrusive social control of its populace, along the lines of China's. That's inconsistent.
Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) weigh in:
https://consortiumnews.com/2019/04/04/vips-urge-trump-to-avoid-war-in-venezuela/
VIPS Urge Trump to Avoid War in Venezuela
April 4, 2019
VIPS warn that Trump’s policies regarding Venezuela appear to be on a slippery slope that could take us toward war in Venezuela and military confrontation with Russia.
MEMORANDUM FOR: The President
FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)
SUBJECT: Avoiding War with Russia over Venezuela
Mr. President:
Your Administration’s policies regarding Venezuela appear to be on a slippery slope that could take us toward war in Venezuela and military confrontation with Russia. As former intelligence officers and other national security practitioners with many decades of experience, we urge you not to let yourself be egged on into taking potentially catastrophic military action in response to civil unrest in Venezuela or Russian activities in the Western Hemisphere. With the recent arrival of two transport aircraft and enduring political support for the government of Venezuela, the Russians are far from crossing any “red line” emanating from the 1823 Monroe Doctrine.
Unfulfilled Objectives in Venezuela
Inside Venezuela, U.S. actions have failed to do more than plunge the country into deeper crisis, cause greater human suffering, and increase the prospects of violence on a national scale. President Maduro’s mishandling of the economy and authoritarian reactions to provocations are impossible to defend, but they result in part from the fact that he has been under siege since he was first elected in 2013 and has faced sanctions aimed ultimately at removing him from office. In our view, the advice you’ve received from your top advisors – Florida Senator Marco Rubio, National Security Advisor John Bolton, Special Representative Elliott Abrams, and Secretary of State Michael Pompeo – was and apparently continues to be wrong.
-- Recognition of Venezuelan National Assembly President Juan Guaidó as “interim president” did not prompt the military to rise up against President Maduro. Neither did attacking the officer corps as merely corrupt opportunists and drug-traffickers enriched through loyalty to former President Chávez and Maduro, nor did repeatedly threatening them with harsher sanctions. Those actions reflected a fundamental misunderstanding about the Venezuelan military, which has never been free of corruption and political compromise but has also never been so totally isolated from the Venezuelan people that it hasn’t felt their suffering. U.S. policies incorrectly assumed that the officers – while probably fed up with Maduro’s shortcomings – would support Guaidó despite his faction’s commitment to dismantle Chavismo, which most officers believe brought historically necessary changes to the country, including enfranchisement of the poor.
Similarly, your Administration’s repeated hints at military intervention have been counterproductive to your regime-change objectives. Your policy and intelligence advisors were correct in interpreting the disparate polling data showing popular support for Guaidó as actually being support for the U.S. to extricate the country from its crisis – the National Assembly President was a political unknown until the United States and others recognized his claim to the Presidency – but your team showed a lack of understanding of Venezuelan nationalism. Venezuelans do not welcome the destruction that would be caused by U.S. military attack; they recall the death toll of Operation Just Cause, when the United States killed more than 3,000 Panamanians (by its own count) to remove one corrupt authoritarian, Manuel Noriega. Threats of invasion have pushed people to circle around Maduro, however reluctantly, not reject him.
-- Your Administration’s strategy of punishing the Venezuelan people, including apparently knocking out their electricity, seems based on the false assumption that humanitarian crisis will prompt a coup to remove Maduro. In fact, the U.S. sanctions have allowed Maduro to shift blame from his own failings to U.S. malice – and it has left Guaidó, whom your advisors portray as the moral equivalent of our Founders, looking like a sell-out to Yankee imperialists at the cost of the Venezuelan people’s health and welfare and magnified civil disorder
Lost Opportunity for Diplomacy
Senator Rubio, Mr. Bolton, Mr. Abrams, and Mr. Pompeo have also squandered a formidable moment to build on common values with allies in Latin America and Europe. Even though most Latin Americans find your aides’ public assertion that the Monroe Doctrine is alive and well to be insulting, the right-leaning Presidents of most of South and Central America rallied with you to support Guaidó’s self-proclamation. But Guaidó’s lack of leadership – he appears totally scripted by U.S. Government agencies – his inflexibility on negotiations, his open call for U.S. military intervention, and your own Administration’s dangling threat of war are rapidly alienating all but the most subservient to U.S. policy dictates. Negotiation proposals, such as those being developed by the International Contact Group, are gaining momentum.
Internationalizing the Conflict
National Security Advisor Bolton and others have sought to internationalize the Venezuela issue since before Guaidó’s proclamation. Bolton’s reference to a “Troika of Tyranny” in November – which he called “a triangle of terror stretching from Havana to Caracas to Managua” and “sordid cradle of communism in the Western Hemisphere” – was a veiled Cold War-era swipe at Russia and China. Mr. Bolton, Senator Rubio, and other advisors have made clear on numerous occasions that the overthrow of President Maduro would be just the first stage in efforts to eliminate the current governments of the “Troika” and “Communist influence” in the Western Hemisphere.
-- They have repeatedly asserted that Cuban advisors have been crucial to the Maduro government’s survival without providing evidence. Indeed, the reportedly “hundreds” of Venezuelan military defectors, including many managed by U.S. agencies, have not provided even credible hearsay evidence that Cubans are doing more than providing routine assistance. In addition, the threats coming out of Washington have preempted any willingness that Cuba might have had to contribute to a regional solution to the Venezuelan crisis as it has in similar situations, such as Colombia’s recent peace process, the Angola peace process in 1989-90, and the Central American negotiations in the early 1990s
Provocative Rhetoric about Russia
Most dangerous, however, are aggressive statements about Russia’s engagement with Venezuela. Russian oil companies, particular Rosneft, have long been in Venezuela – bailing out the Venezuelan petroleum company (PDVSA) as its mismanagement and falling oil prices have caused production and revenues to plummet. Most long-term observers believe Rosneft’s decisions, including throwing good money after bad, have been motivated by business calculations, without a particularly ideological objective.
-- Your advisors’ rhetoric imposing an East-West spin on the issue presented President Putin and his advisors an opportunity to try to poke the United States in the eye – especially as Administration efforts to remove Maduro foundered and diplomatic support for Guaidó cracked. Maduro and Putin have not enjoyed particularly close personal relations in the past, and their shared strategic interests are few, but U.S. rhetoric and threats have given them common cause in tweaking us. A meeting in Rome between your special envoy, Elliot Abrams, and Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov achieved nothing amid further U.S. sanctions against Venezuela and continued threats that “all options” were on the table.
Publicly available information is insufficient for us to know exactly what was aboard the two Russian aircraft that landed at Maiquetía last week – two months after your Administration publicly proclaimed its intention to remove Maduro – but precedent suggests Moscow had two main objectives.
-- One, and probably primary, is to embarrass your Administration by defying your rhetoric, just to rub your nose in Moscow’s sovereign right to have the relations, including military liaison, with whomever it pleases. In this sense, Russian behavior resembles its intervention, at Bashar al-Assad’s request, in Syria. And it is not a far cry from Moscow’s reaction to the Western-supported coup in Kiev.
-- Another objective, if press speculation about the Russian advisors and equipment aboard the aircraft is correct, would be to shore up Venezuela’s ability to warn of and respond to a U.S. military strike. Your Administration has publicly asserted that the Russians are helping repair S-300 surface-to-air missile systems, which have a purely defensive purpose. There is no evidence, not even circumstantial, that Russia has any offensive objectives in this relationship.
The U.S. reaction has suggested a much greater chance of military confrontation. Mr. Bolton “strongly caution[ed] actors external to the Western Hemisphere against deploying military assets to Venezuela, or elsewhere in the Hemisphere, with the intent of establishing or expanding military operations.” Without defining what activities he would object to, Mr. Bolton said, “We will consider such provocative actions as a direct threat to international peace and security in the region.” Your Special Representative said the “Russian presence” is “extremely pernicious.” Your Secretary of State said, “Russia’s got to leave Venezuela.” You said, “Russia has to get out” and reiterated that “all options are open” – including presumably forcing the Russians out militarily. And we note that Russia has not closed its embassy in Caracas as your Administration has.
Avoiding the Slippery Slope
As intelligence officers and security experts, we have given many years to protecting our nation from a host of threats, including from the Soviet Union. We also believe, however, that picking fights. including ousting governments, blocking negotiated settlements, and threatening other countries’ sovereign decision to pursue activities that do not threaten our national security – is rarely the wise way to go.
We repeat that we are not defending Maduro and his record, while at the same time pointing out that many of his troubles have been exacerbated by U.S. policies and efforts to oust him. We believe that due process and practical, realistic policies better protect our national interests than threats and confrontational rhetoric. It strains credulity to believe that your advisors picked this fight with President Maduro without realizing that Venezuela would seek help fixing its defensive capabilities.
Moreover and very seriously, rhetoric challenging Russia could all too easily lead to a much more consequential confrontation.
-- Invoking the 1823 Monroe Doctrine is unhelpful. For Russia to provide assistance for purely defensive purposes to a country in which we seek to create regime change and threaten military attack would not be widely seen as violating the Monroe Doctrine or crossing a “red line.”
-- We realize that some in the media are trying to egg you on into taking forceful action, perhaps even of a military nature, to punish Russia in any case. We urge you not to fall into this trap. This is not 19th century Latin America, and it is a far cry from the Cuba missile crisis of 1962.
-- The best way to prevent dangerous miscalculation would be for you to speak directly with President Putin. Washington’s energies would be better spent clearing up differences, adjusting failed policies, and promoting a peaceful resolution in Venezuela.
For the Steering Group, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity
Fulton Armstrong, former National Intelligence Officer for Latin America & former National Security Council Director for Inter-American Affairs (ret.)
William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)
Marshall Carter-Tripp, Foreign Service Officer & former Division Director in the State Department Bureau of Intelligence and Research (ret.)
Bogdan Dzakovic, Former Team Leader of Federal Air Marshals and Red Team, FAA Security, (ret.) (associate VIPS)
Philip Giraldi, CIA, Operations Officer (ret.)
Mike Gravel,,former Adjutant, top secret control officer, Communications Intelligence Service; special agent of the Counter Intelligence Corps and former United States Senator
Larry Johnson, former CIA Intelligence Officer & former State Department Counter-Terrorism Official, (ret.)
John Kiriakou, former CIA Counterterrorism Officer and former Senior Investigator, Senate Foreign Relations Committee
Clement J. Laniewski, LTC, U.S. Army (ret.)
Linda Lewis, WMD preparedness policy analyst, USDA (ret.)
Edward Loomis, NSA Cryptologic Computer Scientist (ret.)
David MacMichael, former Senior Estimates Officer, National Intelligence Council (ret.)
Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA presidential briefer (ret.)
Elizabeth Murray, former Deputy National Intelligence Officer for the Near East & CIA political analyst (ret.)
Todd E. Pierce, MAJ, US Army Judge Advocate (ret.)
Coleen Rowley, FBI Special Agent and former Minneapolis Division Legal Counsel (ret.)
Peter Van Buren,U.S. Department of State, Foreign Service Officer (ret.) (associate VIPS)
Sarah Wilton, Commander, U.S. Naval Reserve (ret.) and Defense Intelligence Agency (ret.)
Ann Wright, U.S. Army Reserve Colonel (ret) and former U.S. Diplomat who resigned in 2003 in opposition to the Iraq War
Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) is made up of former intelligence officers, diplomats, military officers and congressional staffers. The organization, founded in 2002, was among the first critics of Washington’s justifications for launching a war against Iraq. VIPS advocates a US foreign and national security policy based on genuine national interests rather than contrived threats promoted for largely political reasons. An archive of VIPS memoranda is available at Consortiumnews.com.
paulsurovell said:
Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) weigh in:
https://consortiumnews.com/2019/04/04/vips-urge-trump-to-avoid-war-in-venezuela/
VIPS Urge Trump to Avoid War in Venezuela
That is not to argue that Mr. Trump should become more aggressive. Mr. Maduro and his patron in the Kremlin may have called Washington’s bluff for now … But a military intervention in a country bigger than Texas would be ugly, even if Russia did not get further involved, and nearly all the other nations backing Mr. Guaidó firmly opposed one.
If you read the whole editorial, the NY Times position sets forth a more realistic discussion of the facts than the VIPS piece.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:So does the NY Times:
Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) weigh in:
https://consortiumnews.com/2019/04/04/vips-urge-trump-to-avoid-war-in-venezuela/
VIPS Urge Trump to Avoid War in Venezuela
That is not to argue that Mr. Trump should become more aggressive. Mr. Maduro and his patron in the Kremlin may have called Washington’s bluff for now … But a military intervention in a country bigger than Texas would be ugly, even if Russia did not get further involved, and nearly all the other nations backing Mr. Guaidó firmly opposed one.If you read the whole editorial, the NY Times position sets forth a more realistic discussion of the facts than the VIPS piece.
The Times editorial board suffers from the same contempt for the Venezuelan masses that it had when it endorsed the 2001 coup against Chavez. Maduro holds power because those masses are resisting a coup that aims to restore power of the wealthy class and turn over their natural resources to foreign corporations.
paulsurovell said:
The Times editorial board suffers from the same contempt for the Venezuelan masses ...
Projection.
paulsurovell said:
Maduro holds power because those masses are resisting a coup that aims to restore power of the wealthy class and turn over their natural resources to foreign corporations.
Disregarding Maduro's control of the military, the paramilitaries, control of essentials like food, and the millions of refugees who left before the National Assembly asserted its rights under the Venezuelan Constitution.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:Disregarding Maduro's control of the military, the paramilitaries, control of essentials like food, and the millions of refugees who left before the National Assembly asserted its rights under the Venezuelan Constitution.
Maduro holds power because those masses are resisting a coup that aims to restore power of the wealthy class and turn over their natural resources to foreign corporations.
Maduro is President of Venezuela and commander-in-chief of its military forces. The government's involvement in food distribution in the face of shortages is to its credit, not a reason to criticize. Millions of refugees seeking better economic conditions is the story across Latin America, even in countries that are not subject to crippling economic sanctions by Yankee Imperialism. But we are not trying to overthrow there governments.
paulsurovell said:
Maduro is President of Venezuela and commander-in-chief of its military forces. The government's involvement in food distribution in the face of shortages is to its credit, not a reason to criticize. Millions of refugees seeking better economic conditions is the story across Latin America, even in countries that are not subject to crippling economic sanctions by Yankee Imperialism. But we are not trying to overthrow there governments.
The refugees from Venezuela (formerly wealthy country) are in greater numbers. Also, the exodus started long before the recent government crisis and sanctions. And you're minimizing the impact of Maduro controlling the military by mentioning only distributing food - which by the way was being controlled (for political purposes) before the recent government crisis and sanctions.
I heard this piece yesterday, relevant for this thread because it explains how conditions in Venezuela have been deteriorating for years. How Venezuela's Currency Became So Worthless (there's a transcript at the link). An excerpt:
LANSBERG-RODRIGUEZ: Venezuela was already in recession. Venezuela was already - had oil production that was falling and declining very quickly. So there were already a lot of problems. At the same time, a lot of other petro states - Kuwait, Brazil even managed to save a great deal of money because there is an understanding that oil prices go up and they go down. Venezuela used that period to sort of project a lot more influence abroad. They were subsidizing other economies, and that left very little money in the till for when oil prices actually dropped.
SHAPIRO: That explains why the economy would tank and become weak, but it doesn't necessarily explain why the currency would become worthless. So what created the hyperinflation?
LANSBERG-RODRIGUEZ: So hyperinflation basically was created by two factors. The first was, since there was very little money coming in from oil rents - because oil had suddenly become very cheap - and the government didn't feel it was strong enough to actually make fiscal reforms, which tend to be unpopular, you have a situation where the government is essentially running the printing presses full time and using that to pay off any sort of domestic debt.
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I stopped here. I've already pointed you to materials on the Constitution of Venezuela and the last election. So the "who needs elections" line was written for the ignorant. His argument based on the pictures has a similar intended audience.
[Edited to add] Take a closer look at your two pictures of the groups of people. Both photos were taken on the same set of stairs. In the one with the "darker" people, the pillars are also darker, the back walls are also darker, and the gold of the crest on the back wall is also darker. It's almost as if the whole picture was reproduced so that the subjects looked darker than in the other one.