When is 20% > 80%?
joan_crystal said:
I never thought any Jews would be opposed to Halloween until I attended a bar mitzvah in the Boston area, where the Rabbi was questioning whether Jews should even open their doors to trick or treaters due to the day's Christian roots.
lord_pabulum said:
https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/when-is-20-80?page=next&limit=30#discussion-replies-3117438
I think I get it. In this discussion, a holiday’s “roots” can refer only to the radicle, or original, growth. Anything that happened afterward, no matter how many centuries ago, should be described as the holiday’s “propagation,” or some such, so that all of us are clear about the actual terms on which a fuss may or may not be made.
sprout said:If I remember correctly, Clinton school also did not allow kids to wear costumes to school. Kids had to bring them to school, but wait until the last hour to get dressed up for the parade and trunk-or-treat that occurred just before the end of the school day. I believe there were also many rules about the costumes (no full face masks or face coverage, no weaponry, etc.)
My daughter loves dressing up. She kind of dresses up on random days of the year and goes to school in her various creations. She is aware that some of her friends at SB do not celebrate Halloween, and that the school rule is that kids can't dress up in costume for school tomorrow.
So, she will wait the extra hour before dressing up tomorrow: We will pick her up after school, she will get dressed in her costume, and we will go to the Maplewood parade downtown. Then she will go trick-or-treating in the evening -- either in the same costume, or as often occurs, in some other creative creation she decides to wear at the last moment.
Your daughter sounds like a smart and compassionate kid. Kudos!
I hope so... but in this case, it may be more that she is aware that this is just how things are done at SB, and it's a school rule - so there's not really anything to try to discuss or negotiate. I'm not sure if she's aware that some parents interpret this school rule as being 'deprived' of a Halloween event. Maybe I'll ask her about it, and what her feelings are, in a few days -- after the chocolate/candy rush from trick-or-treating has passed.
Note: Her class knows that no food is allowed in the classrooms at any time (to discourage any future mouse problem), so there is never any expectation of getting 'treats' in her classes.
sprout said:She is aware that some of her friends at SB do not celebrate Halloween, and that the school rule is that kids can't dress up in costume for school tomorrow.
Read what you wrote, someone ELSE doesn't celebrate Halloween, so SHE cannot dress up. So the religious beliefs of another student are being pushed on someone who doesn't follow that religion.
Again, I'm just saying a compromise would have been nice. No parade, no parties, but at least allow the students who want to dress up the opportunity to do so.
FWIW I was one of those kids who NEVER dressed up for school, I was too self conscious to. But that doesn't mean I don't understand that other children love it.
And going to the religion based argument (as incredibly stupid as it is) would a christian student be allowed to be offended by a Jewish student wearing a star of David since Judaism doesn't recognize Christ as the son of God? Of course not.
Dressing up as Jack Sparrow or Darth Vader isn't proselytizing.
spontaneous said:
sprout said:
She is aware that some of her friends at SB do not celebrate Halloween, and that the school rule is that kids can't dress up in costume for school tomorrow.
Read what you wrote, someone ELSE doesn't celebrate Halloween, so SHE cannot dress up. So the religious beliefs of another student are being pushed on someone who doesn't follow that religion.
She can dress up later. Why make her friends feel left out?
The children of the religious parents are truly the ones who are having the religious beliefs pushed on them -- by their parents. The rest of us are not being forced to follow their religion. We're being requested to be nice to those kids. The note home read: "Please do not send your child to school with a costume or candy on October 31st". It's not a request to follow their religion.
lord_pabulum said:
joan_crystal said:
I never thought any Jews would be opposed to Halloween until I attended a bar mitzvah in the Boston area, where the Rabbi was questioning whether Jews should even open their doors to trick or treaters due to the day's Christian roots.
https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/when-is-20-80?page=next&limit=30#discussion-replies-3117438
I am quoting a Rabbi in the Boston area, not making a specific claim on my own. Many holidays we now attribute to western religious celebration originate in pagan ritual.
sprout said:
spontaneous said:
sprout said:
She is aware that some of her friends at SB do not celebrate Halloween, and that the school rule is that kids can't dress up in costume for school tomorrow.
Read what you wrote, someone ELSE doesn't celebrate Halloween, so SHE cannot dress up. So the religious beliefs of another student are being pushed on someone who doesn't follow that religion.
She can dress up later. Why make her friends feel left out?
The children of the religious parents are truly the ones who are having the religious beliefs pushed on them -- by their parents. The rest of us are not being forced to follow their religion. We're being requested to be nice to those kids. The note home read: "Please do not send your child to school with a costume or candy on October 31st". It's not a request to follow their religion.
It is forcing restrictive behavior on others due to their religion. If you don’t believe in Halloween then don’t dress up. But why do you have the right to tell someone else they can’t dress up!
Again, a compromise would have been no parade, no parties, but allowing children to wear costumes if they wished.
As far as children dressing up for Purim, I have no issue with anyone doing that if it is something they would like to do. If you want to wear green on St Patrick’s day to show both your politics AND your religion, go right ahead. If you want to wear orange on St Patrick’s Day for the same reasons, feel free.
spontaneous said:
It is forcing restrictive behavior on others due to their religion. If you don’t believe in Halloween then don’t dress up. But why do you have the right to tell someone else they can’t dress up!
Quick question: Do you think the 5-yr old to 10-yr old KIDS of parents who are religious don't WANT to dress up or have candy? They are kids. When I was a kid, I was not allowed to do some of what the 'mainstream' was doing, but I desperately wanted to participate, and I desperately wanted to be mainstream. But I was not allowed to, and it was really hard not to cry when I had to tell someone else that I couldn't participate in several 'fun' kid things because of various restrictions my parents and history placed on me.
Now, I don't want my kids to make another kid to feel like they are left out because of their parents and history. And the school seems to agree.
You, however, seem to feel that depriving (or requesting, depending on how you read the "Please" in the note) your child of an opportunity to wear a costume at school, when you are not even there, is the bigger wrong.
So should we ban pork and milk/meat products from the cafeteria so that children who keep kosher don’t feel left out? Ban make up so that children whose parents won’t let them wear it won’t feel different?
You are free to practice your religion and or social beliefs so long as you don’t push your beliefs on me. My son wearing a costume that he spent months making doesn’t stop you from practicing your religion. Dictating his behavior because of your beliefs, on the other hand, is just plain wrong.
I have NOT told him why he cannot wear his costume to school. I have tried to keep it as low key as possible. But believe me, when I received the voicemail and I told him he was not allowed to wear it, he said he knew, and told me how disappointed he was.
Well, maybe you should have signed up for your zoned school in time then. You're at the only elementary school in the district that would disappoint your kid in this respect, and apparently, this is more important to you than the feelings of other kids.
Note: Pork really does not equal candy and costumes to most kids.
When I first heard of this policy, I thought it was a little ridiculous. Wearing costumes is a fun part of the day. But both towns have great events in the afternoon - I certainly didn't have that opportunity as a kid, parading in the middle of the street, getting candy from merchants. And plenty of houses for trick-or-treating. And there are haunted houses, pumpkin farms, tv specials, etc. On FB (SOMa Lounge), someone posted a map of where the best decorated houses are, which is fun. It does get to a point where you have to ask yourself, how big do these holidays need to be? By bedtime, hopefully kids who were disappointed with the school part of the day will have forgotten about it.
sprout, if you want to dictate someone else’s behavior based on YOUR religion then why don’t you go to Indiana and open up a pizza shop. They love people like you there.
Spont -- It's apparent that this really upsets you. But perhaps you can still try to read what I wrote.
sprout said:
Well, maybe you should have signed up for your zoned school in time then. You're at the only elementary school in the district that would disappoint your kid in this respect, and apparently, this is more important to you than the feelings of other kids.
Note: Pork really does not equal candy and costumes to most kids.
Yeah, I read your snarky response.
By the way, my son was on a waiting list for our zoned school. A girl just arrived from Puerto Rico and they somehow managed to find her a spot in that same school, same grade, that he was on a list for. Are you saying I should make a stink and have her sent to another school?
And if you had bothered to read any of my posts from today you would have seen that I was okay with no parades, or parties, as a compromise. You know, a compromise where BOTH parties meet each other in the middle rather than one party demanding to get everything they want and everyone caving in to that?
And I guess the feelings of my kid mean nothing to you. He spent months making this, he didn’t buy it at Party City
joan_crystal said:
I never thought any Jews would be opposed to Halloween until I attended a bar mitzvah in the Boston area, where the Rabbi was questioning whether Jews should even open their doors to trick or treaters due to the day's Christian roots. That said, there are a number of other groups in the Seth Boyden district, Seventh Day Adventists, agnostics, and/or atheists to name just a few, who might oppose the practice of celebrating Halloween in school on religious grounds. Then there are the economic concerns and concerns of lost instruction time that were raised at the time Seth Boyden School first decided there would be no Halloween celebration on school grounds during school hours.
Halloween's roots are pre Christian.
Costumes to school on Halloween is not a compromise. A compromise would be that they have a costume day in December.
My kid just wears the costumes (which she also makes) to school on other days of the school year.
And she'll be wearing her latest creation for hours after school. It's fine. Really.
Question - does this mean that NO religious holiday is ever acknowledged?
I don’t think you understand the meaning of the word compromise.
And I also don’t understand why religious nuts are being allowed to dictate policy.
spontaneous said:
I don’t think you understand the meaning of the word compromise.
And I also don’t understand why religious nuts are being allowed to dictate policy.
Because they have kids who don't have a choice about being a child of a 'religious nut'.
Scully said:
Question - does this mean that NO religious holiday is ever acknowledged?
Well, the compromise reached on Christmas music was that it could be played/sung in the district... but not around Christmastime.
(ETA: the policy also prohibits "any printed programs for any Holiday concert to have any graphics which refer to the holidays, such as Christmas trees and dreidels.")
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/10/supreme_court_upholds_ban_on_r.html
sprout said:
spontaneous said:
I don’t think you understand the meaning of the word compromise.
And I also don’t understand why religious nuts are being allowed to dictate policy.
Because they have kids who don't have a choice about being a child of a 'religious nut'.
Again, don't force your religion on me. When I was in CHS a friend of mine was not allowed to wear pants because her family was ultra conservative Christians. She had no choice. I understood, but there was no way in hell that I'd ever agree with being forced to wear skirts and dresses that were ankle length because her family thought it was appropriate. Of course, she was just one girl, so I have to wonder at what percentage of students do we make someone's religious beliefs policy? I'm just curious, so I can be prepared based on the religions currently represented in our school system.
You are advocating policy based on religious observances. That is wrong. It doesn't matter if it is something stupid like a Halloween costume or kite flying, or something more fundamental like women covering their hair or marriage equality. Your right to practice your religion ends when you force it on me. Period.
Scully said:
Halloween's roots are pre Christian.
All of them? From Britannica.com: From the taproot arise smaller lateral roots (secondary roots), which in turn produce even smaller lateral roots (tertiary roots).
Creepy.
sprout said:
You're at the only elementary school in the district that would disappoint your kid in this respect
Wait, you said Clinton didn't allow it. So which is it, did I send my kid to the ONLY school "that would disappoint" my son, or are these religious beliefs now spreading to other schools?
I think I see the problem. You may be looking at it a bit in reverse. The 'religious nuts' you think are forcing their religion on you are actually asking the school not to force Paganism (in the form of pagan imagery/celebration) on their children. I believe those you keep referring to as 'religious nuts' are Christian (but not the type of Christian that celebrate Halloween).
Halloween is so far away from being a religious holiday that you have to be a nut to think it is one.
spontaneous said:
sprout said:
You're at the only elementary school in the district that would disappoint your kid in this respect
Wait, you said Clinton didn't allow it. So which is it, did I send my kid to the ONLY school "that would disappoint" my son, or are these religious beliefs now spreading to other schools?
You really didn't understand what I wrote.
At Clinton the kids were not allowed to WEAR the costumes to school, they had to BRING them to school in a bag. Near the end of the day, around 2pm the kids would change into their costumes, and they would have a parade around the school. The teachers would have their car trunks decorated and full of candy, and there would be 'trunk-or-treating' in the faculty parking lot.
In summary, Clinton had big Halloween events when we were there, but it was only for the final 30 minutes of the school day or so. Maybe an hour. (Clinton school day ends earlier than SB).
spontaneous said:
Halloween is so far away from being a religious holiday that you have to be a nut to think it is one.
Some people say Christmas has also transcended being a religious holiday but I would disagree on both counts.
ska said:
spontaneous said:
Halloween is so far away from being a religious holiday that you have to be a nut to think it is one.
Some people say Christmas has also transcended being a religious holiday but I would disagree on both counts.
Uh, no...
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If I remember correctly, Clinton school also did not allow kids to wear costumes to school. Kids had to bring them to school, but wait until the last hour to get dressed up for the parade and trunk-or-treat that occurred just before the end of the school day. I believe there were also many rules about the costumes (no full face masks or face coverage, no weaponry, etc.)
My daughter loves dressing up. She kind of dresses up on random days of the year and goes to school in her various creations. She is aware that some of her friends at SB do not celebrate Halloween, and that the school rule is that kids can't dress up in costume for school tomorrow.
So, she will wait the extra hour before dressing up tomorrow: We will pick her up after school, she will get dressed in her costume, and we will go to the Maplewood parade downtown. Then she will go trick-or-treating in the evening -- either in the same costume, or as often occurs, in some other creative creation she decides to wear at the last moment.