When is 20% > 80%?

it's not as much about diversity as it Is about inclusiveness as accurately noted by Susan1014.

It's all about church and state separation. Our schools are public schools and so should honor that separation. Back in the day when I was a kid, the overwhelming majority culture was white and Christian. So as marginal people, when the day started in public school with the reading of a passage form the New Testament (after the flag salute), we Jews said nothing. When in December we were expected to create Xmas cards and decorations (for my home?) we said nothing. When we were expected to sing Xmas Carols as part of the school day, we said nothing. (That's why most Jewish people my age know all the words to all the Carols). Same pattern for Halloween, Easter, etc.

In this day and age, I am not sure many of you would put up with a reading of Bible text at the beginning of your kid's school day, would you? So think about how you would feel about that and then imagine that this how some feel about Halloween.

FYI, many observant Jews do not celebrate Halloween because it is a Christian holiday (All Hallow's Eve being the Eve of Nov. 1 All Saint's Day) and their kids do not go trick or treating...I would imagine that there are other minorities who have the same non-practice.

The face of America has changed...look up the statistics. We have come a long way. And we need to deal and look harder at the separation of church and state for the "tossed salad" that is America today (that melting pot thing sorta didn't happen, did it?)

The Halloween activities in the Village are different - are funded by the MVA and the Chamber of Commerce (correct me if I am wrong please). If this is all private money, then there is no church/state issue. If the MVA is funded at all by the town/public funds, then the MVA shouldn't be involved. (MVA is quasi-governmental)

So apparently there was a big kerfuffle up in Bridgeport CT about this same issue. The superintendent of schools banned Halloween activities but then had to rescind because angry parents got over 3000 signatures on a petition to reinstate the activities. Majority rules, end of story, right? No. Right wingers wrapped this together with their perceived "attack on Christmas" and it was all over Fox News and everything. The sad part is that many formerly reasonable parents up there are now in the reactionary right column. There's two ends to the extreme spectrum here: people who think there's a devil out there ready to exert influence over a little girl in an Elsa outfit, and the right wing nuts who are perfectly willing to use such controversies as a recruiting tool. Our more local cancellation has reached silly dimensions and is a moot point by now anyway. But I understand that this is somewhat of anational issue that has elements of church/state conflict and political conflict coming from both ends.

I'm pretty sure someone made a movie about this one...

"Anyone practicing a religion that doesn't believe in dancing

annielou said:
So apparently there was a big kerfuffle up in Bridgeport CT about this same issue. The superintendent of schools banned Halloween activities but then had to rescind because angry parents got over 3000 signatures on a petition to reinstate the activities. Majority rules, end of story, right? No. Right wingers wrapped this together with their perceived "attack on Christmas" and it was all over Fox News and everything. The sad part is that many formerly reasonable parents up there are now in the reactionary right column. There's two ends to the extreme spectrum here: people who think there's a devil out there ready to exert influence over a little girl in an Elsa outfit, and the right wing nuts who are perfectly willing to use such controversies as a recruiting tool. Our more local cancellation has reached silly dimensions and is a moot point by now anyway. But I understand that this is somewhat of anational issue that has elements of church/state conflict and political conflict coming from both ends.

There is nothing about the Seth Boyden decision that has anything to do with Christianilty or Right Wing politics.

OliveBee said:
It's all about church and state separation. Our schools are public schools and so should honor that separation. Back in the day when I was a kid, the overwhelming majority culture was white and Christian. So as marginal people, when the day started in public school with the reading of a passage form the New Testament (after the flag salute), we Jews said nothing. When in December we were expected to create Xmas cards and decorations (for my home?) we said nothing. When we were expected to sing Xmas Carols as part of the school day, we said nothing. (That's why most Jewish people my age know all the words to all the Carols). Same pattern for Halloween, Easter, etc.
In this day and age, I am not sure many of you would put up with a reading of Bible text at the beginning of your kid's school day, would you? So think about how you would feel about that and then imagine that this how some feel about Halloween.

FYI, many observant Jews do not celebrate Halloween because it is a Christian holiday (All Hallow's Eve being the Eve of Nov. 1 All Saint's Day) and their kids do not go trick or treating...I would imagine that there are other minorities who have the same non-practice.
The face of America has changed...look up the statistics. We have come a long way. And we need to deal and look harder at the separation of church and state for the "tossed salad" that is America today (that melting pot thing sorta didn't happen, did it?)
The Halloween activities in the Village are different - are funded by the MVA and the Chamber of Commerce (correct me if I am wrong please). If this is all private money, then there is no church/state issue. If the MVA is funded at all by the town/public funds, then the MVA shouldn't be involved. (MVA is quasi-governmental)

Halloween is not Christian. This issue is not a religious issue. I am indifferent if you want to share how difficult your youth was, but it is unrelated.

Woot. You keep waving off everyone's comments as irrelevant. Even if I don't agree with some comments here, everyone is entitled to make their own connections to the issue. It so happens that bigger issues of diversity, church and state , and the idea of whether the majority rules, all touch on this issue. If you personally are satisfied to keep it in the realm of "oh the principal had to make a logistical decision and made it", I think you've made that clear.

annielou said:
Woot. You keep waving off everyone's comments as irrelevant. Even if I don't agree with some comments here, everyone is entitled to make their own connections to the issue. It so happens that bigger issues of diversity, church and state , and the idea of whether the majority rules, all touch on this issue. If you personally are satisfied to keep it in the realm of "oh the principal had to make a logistical decision and made it", I think you've made that clear.

But it's simply not a church-state issue, so I think his point is very valid.

annielou said:
Woot. You keep waving off everyone's comments as irrelevant. Even if I don't agree with some comments here, everyone is entitled to make their own connections to the issue. It so happens that bigger issues of diversity, church and state , and the idea of whether the majority rules, all touch on this issue. If you personally are satisfied to keep it in the realm of "oh the principal had to make a logistical decision and made it", I think you've made that clear.

Great. I was worried people couldn't read.

The point is that the activities are not being called off for religious reasons. They are being called off for participatory reasons. I believe the point some are trying to make is that why kids aren't participating is irrelevant.

mjh said:

annielou said:
Woot. You keep waving off everyone's comments as irrelevant. Even if I don't agree with some comments here, everyone is entitled to make their own connections to the issue. It so happens that bigger issues of diversity, church and state , and the idea of whether the majority rules, all touch on this issue. If you personally are satisfied to keep it in the realm of "oh the principal had to make a logistical decision and made it", I think you've made that clear.

But it's simply not a church-state issue, so I think his point is very valid.

Halloween is not Christian?...or based on religious practice? Please find a source that proves that.

The sources I know of show that it is Celtic/pagan tradition that was transitioned to Christian practice - it is Hallow-een or Hallows Eve, which is the Eve of Hallows...or All Saints Day, which is practiced by the Catholic Church.

So how is that not Christian? - If you ahve a source refuting this, please let me know.

this: http://www.loc.gov/folklife/halloween.html

It is indeed a church-state issue...

ParticleMan said:
The point is that the activities are not being called off for religious reasons. They are being called off for participatory reasons. I believe the point some are trying to make is that why kids aren't participating is irrelevant.

Very valid point - thx...

So the question is - why do some kids/families choose not to participate?..Is it the religious thing or something else entirely? I truly would e interested to know. Even if I am stating that it is religious based holiday, of there is a reason that some do not participate, I woudl think that is important. So...why?

and I do think it is relevant.

This is what changed my mind about the situation. If it starts to be more of a hassle for the staff to deal with the non-participants, regardless of the "why", it's probably not worth the hassle.

ParticleMan said:
The point is that the activities are not being called off for religious reasons. They are being called off for participatory reasons. I believe the point some are trying to make is that why kids aren't participating is irrelevant.

I agree but I don't think it is about it being a hassle. I would think some deeper consideration went into this. And in a town that explores and celebrates its diversity wouldn't it be elucidating and perhaps a teaching moment to know why?

OliveBee said:
I agree but I don't think it is about it being a hassle. I would think some deeper consideration went into this. And in a town that explores and celebrates its diversity wouldn't it be elucidating and perhaps a teaching moment to know why?

Why they made the decision or why people chose not to participate?

Both have been addressed earlier in the thread.

The decision was out of concern about inclusion, when there were so many not participating. Although hassle might have been a factor, I believe that the feelings of the non-participating children were a far bigger concern to the Principal and PTA in this situation.

Re the why individual families choose not to participate, clearly this was for religious reasons in many cases, but not necessarily all. In any case, it really isn't anyone's business to question why any particular family chooses to opt out of this type of activity, is it?

It may not necessarily be anyone's business on a practical level from the PTA/school decision making standpoint. However, I do think it is important from an emotional standpoint for the community to understand the specifics behind why that particular decision was made.

cupoftea said:
It may not necessarily be anyone's business on a practical level from the PTA/school decision making standpoint. However, I do think it is important from an emotional standpoint for the community to understand the specifics behind why that particular decision was made.

Why the decision was made has been discussed thoroughly earlier in the the thread. What sac said is it isn't anyone's business why a specific family doesn't participate and just FYI, it is not asked on the form so we can really only speculate. I would guess it is mostly religious but there are also economic and cultural factors as well.

OliveBee said:
It's all about church and state separation. Our schools are public schools and so should honor that separation.

I agree. Public schools should not close for any religious new years like the first day of Muharram, Rosh Hashanah or January 1st either

the religious angle is a smokescreen. they feel that underprivileged kids get left out because the fancypants rich kids get the nicer costumes. well, welcome to life.

mamabear said:

cupoftea said:
It may not necessarily be anyone's business on a practical level from the PTA/school decision making standpoint. However, I do think it is important from an emotional standpoint for the community to understand the specifics behind why that particular decision was made.

Why the decision was made has been discussed thoroughly earlier in the the thread. What sac said is it isn't anyone's business why a specific family doesn't participate and just FYI, it is not asked on the form so we can really only speculate. I would guess it is mostly religious but there are also economic and cultural factors as well.

I am not saying we shoudl scrutinize any particular family here, but just educate all of us as to the current makeup of the population and the concerns they have, which obviously are begin supported by the principal and most of us....that's why I wrote that it wouldl be good to know why some do not participate.

Robert_Casotto said:
the religious angle is a smokescreen. they feel that underprivileged kids get left out because the fancypants rich kids get the nicer costumes. well, welcome to life.

but that is as good a reason as teh "smokescreen" of religion.

personally I think the homemade costumes are always nicer.

lord_pabulum said:

OliveBee said:
It's all about church and state separation. Our schools are public schools and so should honor that separation.

I agree. Public schools should not close for any religious new years like the first day of Muharram, Rosh Hashanah or January 1st either

That's a good observation - I think it has to do with the number of absences that woudl happen those days, combined with a PC approach. Would also be good to know the rationale behind that.

Should schools not close for Xmas and Easter? - ,you didn't cite that either.

(They do nto close for Passover)

These are all very important discussions for a great community such as ours.

Robert_Casotto said:
the religious angle is a smokescreen. they feel that underprivileged kids get left out because the fancypants rich kids get the nicer costumes. well, welcome to life.

Why so bitter?

When that shark bites with his teeth, babe ...

#richkidsstoreboughthalloweencostumesmatter.

Cool! (not). NJ.com has picked up the story and in just 3 hours they've got more comments than are posted here.

jfburch said:
Cool! (not). NJ.com has picked up the story and in just 3 hours they've got more comments than are posted here.

Immigration! School choice! Teacher contracts!

We're all just a bunch of pikers in comparison.

DaveSchmidt said:

jfburch said:
Cool! (not). NJ.com has picked up the story and in just 3 hours they've got more comments than are posted here.

Immigration! School choice! Teacher contracts!
We're all just a bunch of pikers in comparison.

Wooden stakes!