When is 20% > 80%?

sac said:
I suspect that (like most of these issues) it is much more important to the parents than to the kids and most kids wouldn't even know that they are missing anything except for their parents making a big issue of it.

Ain't this the truth. So much of the drama that is supposedly about our kids is really about parents working through their own concerns. Given that the town has a perfectly nice Halloween celebration, I don't quite understand why the elementary schools need to do anything special.

sprout said:

annielou said:
There is no interest on my part in trying to reason with the unreasonable. My only intention is to oppose the idea that, because a small group of people chose to apply a religious label to a generally accepted secular celebration, said celebration was cancelled. It's called separation of church and state.

I don't think separation of church and state applies here. But it would be interesting to see how you think it does.

Separation of church and state, as I understand it, means that a specific religious belief cannot assert its influence on governmental entities. The school in question is public. Halloween, as it is celebrated in 21st century America, is not a form of worship of anything. However it has been labeled as such by the 20% whose belief system says that it is. That is religion imposing itself on a governmental entity

Now you have me thinking about how I can convince government entities to stop closing everything on Christmas...

After all these thoughtful posts, and my initial concern about the cancellation, I've now been convinced that it's really not a bi deal, my nostalgia for elementary school Halloween activities aside.

sprout said:

sprout said:

annielou said:
There is no interest on my part in trying to reason with the unreasonable. My only intention is to oppose the idea that, because a small group of people chose to apply a religious label to a generally accepted secular celebration, said celebration was cancelled. It's called separation of church and state.

I don't think separation of church and state applies here. But it would be interesting to see how you think it does.

Separation of church and state, as I understand it, means that a specific religious belief cannot assert its influence on governmental entities. The school in question is public. Halloween, as it is celebrated in 21st century America, is not a form of worship of anything. However it has been labeled as such by the 20% whose belief system says that it is. That is religion imposing itself on a governmental entity

Now you have me thinking about how I can convince government entities to stop closing everything on Christmas...

I would be on your side 1000% Christmas is a religious holiday

joan_crystal said:
When one in five members of the student body opt out of an activity that is intended to be for all of the students in the school, regardless of the reasoning behind such self-exclusion, it is time to think of replacing that activity with something all of the children can participate in comfortably. In that situation, what is wrong with the school administration and PTA leadership finding that a school-wide activity is not working well and deciding to replace it with one that has a better chance of being a success?

Yes!

And this is exactly what the SB PTA and administration have done in this case.

annielou said:

sprout said:
Now you have me thinking about how I can convince government entities to stop closing everything on Christmas...

I would be on your side 1000% Christmas is a religious holiday

Good. That can now be the focus of the church-and-state argument.

The school parade was canceled because 20% of the student body was not participating.

dave said:
Harvest festivals have roots in pagan religious rites. It would be inconsistent to allow that and disallow Halloween.

I will bet that for consistency, if 20% of students do not participate in the Harvest Festival, that will be changed too.

Ha! Not if its a fundraiser

annielou said:
Ha! Not if its a fundraiser

For the right sized fund-raiser, I'm sure they'd allow these folks to plan an activity.

annesimms said:
Respectfully, Halloween doesn't have Christian roots. It is a pagan/Wiccan/Northern European celebration.

I didn't know that.

But if it has pagan roots, that is certainly also against Judaism!

REMOVED

alp said:
Ok, so Halloween isn't a big deal.
What happens if an elementary school has an LGBT or Pride day? I'm hoping that wouldn't be cancelled because the same parents thought it was against their religion.

What within this thread makes you think your comment is remotely relevant?

Woot said:

REMOVED

What within this thread makes you think your comment is remotely relevant?

I can only assume you might have a prejudice. It is relevant, but I'll take it out because I understand it's a tough situation for the school.

sarahzm said:
Suppose 20% of the students were observant Orthodox Jews and were not allowed to eat meat with dairy, so milk, butter, cheese , yogurt and other dairy products were removed from the school lunch room.
Suppose 20% of the students were part of a religious sect that believed that the color red was representative of the devil and devil worship. So because 20% of the students were not allowed to wear red, and were offended by it, no one in the school was allowed to wear red either.
Suppose 20% of the families had a religious objection to the inclusion of sex education in school and opted to keep their children at home when those classes were being taught.
Suppose 20% of the families had a religious objection to the observance of thanksgiving in school - so the principal and PTA heads with the approval of the superintendent removed any mention or observance of Thanksgiving at that one school.
Suppose the elementary schools had access to swimming and swimming was a choice for the Phys ed curriculum, but 20% of the families in a school had a religious objection to their daughters wearing the proscribed bathing suits so the principal removed swimming from the curriculum.
Suppose there was a book that was part of the 5th grade curriculum, but 20% of the families had a religious objection to what was in the book. There are 100s of appropriate books that could be included - so the book was eliminated.
Suppose 20% of the students observed Ramadan and were not allowed to eat or drink during the day for one month of the year. Do you eliminate school lunch for that period.
To me diversity and freedom of religion is being allowed to observe and practice in ways that you see fit. And that observance and practice is respected by others. Of course, no one's religious practices should be forced on anyone else. But that is what happened when they removed Halloween.
Halloween IS NOT a religious practice. It is a cultural practice with a long tradition. Just because there are people who have religious objections to that practice does not make it a religious practice. No secular part of the school curriculum, or of school life - academic or otherwise should be eliminated because of religious objections of anyone.
By eliminating the Halloween parade, the principal is imposing on the community the religious objections by a few to a secular, tradition celebration. I find that deeply objectionable.

Halloween is a religious holiday, no matter how secularized it has become, There are certain portions of the population that do not celebrate it for exactly that reason. Because it is a religious holiday, it has no place in school, anymore than does Xmas or Passover or Easter or Hanukah. Maplewood Schools are part of the public school system...and so fall under "separation of church and state".

There is a parade in the Village and tick or treating after school, or in this case, on Saturday. There is no need for it to be in public schools any more than Xmas Carols should be in school.

ArchBroad said:
one of the great things about out township is its diversity. Part of that is the learning experiences associated with being exposed to different viewpoints, cultures and religions. Cancelling Halloween seems the antithesis of celebrating our diversity.

Being exposed to various cultures is not the same thing...I do not expect you to follow the laws of Passover in order to know about and understand it. and then there is that church/state separation thing.

Which religion is being promoted by wearing Spiderman outfits and acquiring Snickers bars?

I've actually asked this question of some in laws. The closest response I got was that apparently the devil enjoys costume parades. Perhaps he should go to the Greenwich Village Halloween parade to get a taste of real costumery. The same in laws will also not celebrate birthdays, Christmas, thanksgiving, 4th of July or whatever because they are not "in the bible". It goes without saying the driving a car, using modern banking and healthcare and insurance are not in the bible but this is notproblematic.

At the end of the day, I think about trying to reason with them about how putting on a costume and asking for candy, or having a cake with candles, or opening a brightly wrapped wish list item is a happy time, I just remember that they are eagerly waiting for my family and I to be thrown into the Lake of Fire because we don't know "the truth", and keep my yap shut.

if 100 kids at school are crying, hurt, feeling left out and confused about this parade due their parent's fundamentalist/extremist/bible thumping/whatever beliefs then I think the school should cancel it. For the kids' sake.

Who knows what else these kids are stuck having to deal with, at least they won't have to suffer through this parade situation.

alp said:

Woot said:

REMOVED

What within this thread makes you think your comment is remotely relevant?

I can only assume you might have a prejudice. It is relevant, but I'll take it out because I understand it's a tough situation for the school.

I don't have a bias. I am quite supportive of LGBT community. I didn't understand the point you were attempting to make and assumed you didn't read many of the comments. The principals decision was not based on religion. And a Halloween parade is not a civil right's issue.

dave said:
Which religion is being promoted by wearing Spiderman outfits and acquiring Snickers bars?

^ THIS ^

kibbegirl said:

dave said:
Which religion is being promoted by wearing Spiderman outfits and acquiring Snickers bars?

^ THIS ^

Which religion is being promoted when kids sit on a fat guy in red suit's lap and tells him which lego set he wants that year?

Depends. Are you referring to the Wailing Wall Lego set?

mamabear said:

kibbegirl said:

dave said:
Which religion is being promoted by wearing Spiderman outfits and acquiring Snickers bars?

^ THIS ^

Which religion is being promoted when kids sit on a fat guy in red suit's lap and tells him which lego set he wants that year?

Seriously? Christmas has always been synonymous with Christianity, hence the name, and you know that. If someone takes Halloween as being devilish because that's what they were taught to think, we can't do much to alter that. However, if you can demonstrate how Halloween has been widely commercialized via print and tv ads as being synonymous with being Wiccan and the Occult, then I'll ride with you.

kibbegirl said:
However, if you can demonstrate how Halloween has been widely commercialized via print and tv ads as being synonymous with being Wiccan and the Occult, then I'll ride with you.

ETA: Supposed to have a witch (with bubbling cauldron) and zombie image showing below... but they're not uploading.

kibbegirl said:

mamabear said:

kibbegirl said:

dave said:
Which religion is being promoted by wearing Spiderman outfits and acquiring Snickers bars?

^ THIS ^

Which religion is being promoted when kids sit on a fat guy in red suit's lap and tells him which lego set he wants that year?

Seriously? Christmas has always been synonymous with Christianity, hence the name, and you know that. If someone takes Halloween as being devilish because that's what they were taught to think, we can't do much to alter that. However, if you can demonstrate how Halloween has been widely commercialized via print and tv ads as being synonymous with being Wiccan and the Occult, then I'll ride with you.

What am actually just really surprised about is people in our community are flabbergasted that there are other people in our community that believe Halloween has religious roots or that people associate it with devil worship. (Especially considering the proliferation of gore and zombie stuff as if late) How they are just wrong, and what they believe is downright silly because after all it's just kids dressing up like Spider-Man and getting candy. I was just trying to point out that yes there are holidays that have non religious, silly aspects to them doesn't diminish that holiday's religious meaning to those who believe them. To belittle their beliefs to me is just really disappointing.

If we are judging by looking at costume choices for girls, I would assume that Halloween is some pimp holiday. The costumes just keep getting sluttier each year.

The principal made the right decision, I support him 100% and I thank superintendent Ramos for having the vision, trust and fortitude to support that decision.

ArchBroad said:
one of the great things about out township is its diversity. Part of that is the learning experiences associated with being exposed to different viewpoints, cultures and religions. Cancelling Halloween seems the antithesis of celebrating our diversity.

Being exposed to various cultures is not the same thing...I do not expect you to follow the laws of Passover in order to know about and understand it. and then there is that church/state separation thing.

Enjoying that your children get to learn about other cultures is not really supporting diversity. It may be "celebrating diversity". At worst, it smacks of expecting other families to provide cultural tourism as their role in the school community, while the school promotes the secular-consumer majority holidays (the old school-as-focus-of-cultural-assimilation model).

I've done my turn bringing in latkes and dreidels (at personal expense, of course, which is another burden on those who help "celebrate diversity"), but have never been asked to share about the major Jewish holidays. Only December holiday presentations are solicited most years.

But understand that kids of other viewpoints, cultures and religions are not in the schools to provide diversity show-and-tell for majority-culture kids. They are there to get an education in a setting that values them and makes them feel at home.

Actually supporting diversity is about figuring out how to make all of our diverse students feel like full and equal members of our school communities, to the greatest extent possible, so that they can function well as a learning community. Doing this right will take each and every one of us out of our comfort zones.

Getting there may require sacrifices from all of us, and fewer knee-jerk reactions on issues like Halloween parades...if the evidence is there that its function is exclusionary (for any reason), then it needs to be reconsidered, and evaluated to see if there are strong reasons (academic or otherwise) that merit making so many feel excluded. I'm impressed by the SB leadership for their willingness to take this on for their community.

There are, of course, limits to the changes we can/should make to be inclusive of all communities. Academic integrity needs to be respected (e.g. teaching of evolution should not be diluted), as do civil liberties (absolute acceptance of LGBT youth, respecting religious dress requirements while not forcing them on others). I find some of the slippery slope arguments here silly, if not downright reactionary.

Those who cannot accept these limits (or limits on Halloween parades and Christmas carols, FWIW) will sometimes leave for private schools, or more homogeneous public districts that better fit their cultural needs. I will regret their loss, but attribute it to their inability to bend to the costs of true diversity.

Those who cannot accept these limits (or limits on Halloween parades and Christmas carols, FWIW) will sometimes leave for private schools, or more homogeneous public districts that better fit their cultural needs. I will regret their loss, but attribute it to their inability to bend to the costs of true diversity.

So diversity is taking things away in lieu of adding them in?

The issue I'm having with this thread is that the OP made a valid point. When did less become the majority and decision holders? Why can't the kids sing Christmas carols AND Hanukkah songs AND songs from other religions that depict our 'hoods? Should Jehovah Witnesses (using them as an example) be allowed to address the BOE and say that because they don't celebrate any holidays whatsoever, that any holiday decoration, song or discussion is unfair to their child?

As a group, we are extremely tolerant and interested in other religions and respectful of them. What is a head shaker is this will become a slippery slope for things to come. Anyone practicing a religion that doesn't believe in dancing, young adult books in our libraries and a host of other things can, in the future, petition for these things to be taken away.

What you're saying is that if we don't like the fact that Halloween is taken away and make the choice to leave the system because of that (far fetched but trying to make a point), oh well - too bad, how sad. It's more important that we cater to those families who don't want Halloween and make sure that they're comfortable and we're respectful of them. Again, how is that achieving diversity?

And "celebrating diversity" is the gateway to learning about diversity. You just can't plop different groups of people into a 'hood who look differently and speak different languages and say it's "diverse." We must learn about each other. What do you celebrate? What foods do you eat? How do you worship? Can men and women shake hands? Sit together? Shall I cover up my shoulders when coming to your home? These things are learned over time.

@kibbegirl - As has been stated numerous times in this thread, the decision was taken by the PTA and administration, NOT by (or even in response to a request from) the minority who don't celebrate for whatever reason.

And I believe I saw a later post from the OP that said that he now understood the decision after the discussion that took place here.