The Rose Garden and White House happenings: Listening to voters’ concerns
OK I'll bite, as it were. Yes to keeping the swimsuit on if she was expecting to visit a home or go to a party where there was a pool. Yes if she hadn't been home. Yes if she went home but didn't prioritize changing out of the suit.
mtierney, guessing based on your response to "male" DaveS: yes even though it would be inconvenient to use the bathroom. i was never on swim team, but spent a lot of (not that comfortable) time with swimsuit under clothes many moons ago.
mtierney said:
DaveSchmidt said:Aha, David, you are the only poster who responded, but you got it only half right! Probably due to the fact you are a male.
LOST said:If I interpreted it correctly, the gender-restricted question was whether women would keep a swimsuit on under their clothes after a morning of swim practice.
mtierney,
Has she answered your question?
I really wanted to use an emoji , but I couldn’t put one where I wanted it. New issue?
Actually I posted asking twice" what was the question?" Nevertheless she persisted.
What was the question?
Again, FWIW, that note of my calling the police will not exist now because no further action resulted. Other government records of that time relating to me, with much more importance, were shredded without my knowledge or consent - why would the police keep a two-line note of a call-out?
And what use is a memory of trying to wake upstairs neighbours when I can’t remember them, they won’t remember me, we’ve all moved on and it’s decades later? I literally cannot recall names, how many people were in that apartment, if they were fair or dark, how many males and how many females (they had the top floor of a mansion, I had the old kitchens).
At the time of the event you can’t believe it’s happened, and you don’t know what to do, and what happens next. Fifteen or more voices scream in your brain, and you rehash ‘the movie’ endlessly. You tell yourself you have to get on with your life, you’re not the first person this has happened to...worse things happen in war...at least I’m not sick, not pregnant...when weeks or months have passed, then it’s ‘pull yourself together already, get over it’...
The criteria people set for ‘is this a true event?’ don’t allow for shock, acting out of habit and instinct, acting to keep up appearances, let alone the passage of time and how that affects significant memories made in trauma.
(A few years after the attempted rape, I was in The Car Crash that left me with horrible injuries. I no longer remember the crash but I flinch and suppress the urge to scream every time traffic rushes to my left)
@joanne, thank you so much for sharing your story. I have been struggling with a reluctance to share mine. Know this, I understand.
Two observations, mtierney:
While plenty of Republicans and others still defend Kavanaugh as a victim of mistaken identity, it’s getting harder to find people, especially people who heard Blasey Ford testify, who doubt that she was sexually assaulted.
If you question whether the swimsuit under the clothes is plausible, you should also ask yourself why Blasey Ford would make up such a detail.
There’s a well-known history of Australian women with a title that includes ‘...damned whores and God’s police’. You can apply that phrase to the survivors of sexual assault: we’re damned for getting on with our lives, and for wallowing in self-pity if we succumb to self-doubt and depression. If we have any ‘taint’ of politics or self-assertion in our lives, we’re man-hating femmonazis; if we haven’t got a life partner and enjoy dancing, we’re “sex-crazed”. We just can’t have a normal life post-assault.
It’s not like breaking a leg while skiing.
What will become of our elected government if these weapons are at hand? Who would risk everything to participate at any level of government? What will become of anyone’s opposing views on any issue?
What sort of society would call for capital punishment for alleged misbehavior by a teenage boy 36 years ago? Should the unsubstantiated accusation be enough to eradicate all that was good and honest in his life? The collateral damage to the accused’s children will take decades to assess.
These are the assault weapons of words.
Dr Ford’s GoFundMe account set up immediately left a bad taste in my mouth.
The Practice of Ritual Defamation
How values, opinions and beliefs are
controlled in democratic societies.
Laird Wilcox
1990
Defamation is the destruction or attempted destruction of the reputation, status, character or standing in the community of a person or group of persons by unfair, wrongful, or malicious speech or publication. For the purposes of this essay, the central element is defamation in retaliation for the real or imagined attitudes, opinions or beliefs of the victim, with the intention of silencing or neutralizing his or her influence, and/or making an example of them so as to discourage similar independence and "insensitivity" or non-observance of taboos. It is different in nature and degree from simple criticism or disagreement in that it is aggressive, organized and skillfully applied, often by an organization or representative of a special interest group, and in that it consists of several characteristic elements.
Ritual Defamation is not ritualistic because it follows any prescribed religious or mystical doctrine, nor is it embraced in any particular document or scripture. Rather, it is ritualistic because it follows a predictable, stereotyped pattern which embraces a number of elements, as in a ritual.
The elements of a Ritual Defamation are these:
- In a ritual defamation the victim must have violated a particular taboo in some way, usually by expressing or identifying with a forbidden attitude, opinion or belief. It is not necessary that he "do" anything about it or undertake any particular course of action, only that he engage in some form of communication or expression.
- The method of attack in a ritual defamation is to assail the character of the victim, and never to offer more than a perfunctory challenge to the particular attitudes, opinions or beliefs expressed or implied. Character assassination is its primary tool.
- An important rule in ritual defamation is to avoid engaging in any kind of debate over the truthfulness or reasonableness of what has been expressed, only condemn it. To debate opens the issue up for examination and discussion of its merits, and to consider the evidence that may support it, which is just what the ritual defamer is trying to avoid. The primary goal of a ritual defamation is censorship and repression.
- The victim is often somebody in the public eye - someone who is vulnerable to public opinion - although perhaps in a very modest way. It could be a schoolteacher, writer, businessman, minor official, or merely an outspoken citizen. Visibility enhances vulnerability to ritual defamation.
- An attempt, often successful, is made to involve others in the defamation. In the case of a public official, other public officials will be urged to denounce the offender. In the case of a student, other students will be called upon, and so on.
- In order for a ritual defamation to be effective, the victim must be dehumanized to the extent that he becomes identical with the offending attitude, opinion or belief, and in a manner which distorts it to the point where it appears at its most extreme. For example, a victim who is defamed as a "subversive" will be identified with the worst images of subversion, such as espionage, terrorism or treason. A victim defamed as a "pervert" will be identified with the worst images of perversion, including child molestation and rape. A victim defamed as a "racist" or "anti-Semitic" will be identified with the worst images of racism or anti-Semitism, such as lynchings or gas chambers.
- Also to be successful, a ritual defamation must bring pressure and humiliation on the victim from every quarter, including family and friends. If the victim has school children, they may be taunted and ridiculed as a consequence of adverse publicity. If they are employed, they may be fired from their job. If the victim belongs to clubs or associations, other members may be urged to expel them.
- Any explanation the victim may offer, including the claim of being misunderstood, is considered irrelevant. To claim truth as a defense for a politically incorrect value, opinion or belief is interpreted as defiance and only compounds the problem. Ritual defamation is often not necessarily an issue of being wrong or incorrect but rather of "insensitivity" and failing to observe social taboos.
An interesting aspect of ritual defamation as a practice is its universality. It is not specific to any value, opinion or belief or to any group or subculture. It may be used for or against any political, ethnic, national or religious group. It may, for example, by anti-Semites against Jews, or by Jews against anti-Semites; by rightists against leftists or by leftists against rightists, and so on.
The power of ritual defamation lies entirely in its capacity to intimidate and terrorize. It embraces some elements of primitive superstitious belief, as in a "curse" or "hex." It plays into the subconscious fear most people have of being abandoned or rejected by the tribe or by society and being cut off from social and psychological support systems.
The weakness of ritual defamation lies in its tendency toward overkill and in its obvious maliciousness. Occasionally a ritual defamation will fail because of poor planning and failure to correctly judge the vulnerability of the victim or because its viciousness inadvertently generates sympathy.
It’s important to recognize and identify the patterns of a ritual defamation. Like all propaganda and disinformation campaigns it is accomplished primarily through the manipulation of words and symbols. It is not used to persuade, but to punish. Although it may have cognitive elements, its thrust is primarily emotional. Ritual Defamation is used to hurt, to intimidate, to destroy, and to persecute, and to avoid the dialogue, debate and discussion upon which a free society depends. On those grounds it must be opposed no matter who tries to justify its use.
mtierney said:
What will become of our elected government if these weapons are at hand? Who would risk everything to participate at any level of government? What will become of anyone’s opposing views on any issue?
What sort of society would call for capital punishment for alleged misbehavior by a teenage boy 36 years ago? Should the unsubstantiated accusation be enough to eradicate all that was good and honest in his life?
Part of the problem for Kavanaugh is that he hasn't been good or honest in the rest of his life. He's a sleazy lying political hack.
That aside he's not being prosecuted. He's being considered for a lifetime judicial appointment. He's demonstrating beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is completely unsuited in a multitude of ways.
mtierney said:
What will become of our elected government if these weapons are at hand? Who would risk everything to participate at any level of government? What will become of anyone’s opposing views on any issue?
This woman’s accusation that she was sexually assaulted is a weapon, is it?
mtierney said:
What will become of our elected government if these weapons are at hand? Who would risk everything to participate at any level of government? What will become of anyone’s opposing views on any issue?
What sort of society would call for capital punishment for alleged misbehavior by a teenage boy 36 years ago? Should the unsubstantiated accusation be enough to eradicate all that was good and honest in his life? The collateral damage to the accused’s children will take decades to assess.
Everything you say may be true but,
When Dr. Blasi Ford saw her attackers name on a list of potential Supreme Court nominees what should she have done?
4th time asking @mtierney "what is the question you are asking MOL women? Can't understand why you are not responding.
DaveSchmidt said:
mtierney said:This woman’s accusation that she was sexually assaulted is a weapon, is it?
What will become of our elected government if these weapons are at hand? Who would risk everything to participate at any level of government? What will become of anyone’s opposing views on any issue?
It is being used as such for political gamesmanship in my point of view.
Lost, if I had become aware of the possibility, and I were Dr Ford, I would have contacted him personally, or through my attorney, giving him an account of the events 36 years ago as I remembered. I would have told him that, if nominated, I would bring the matter to the senate.
Who knows. Perhaps he might have recalled the night, realized the enormity of the circumstances and hurt, and apologized sincerely. Dr Ford would have spared herself and her family the emotional stress, and at the same time bravely confronted the man she believed did this thing.
Kanvanaugh had a choice: strongly defend his innocence and fight to save his reputation and family, or, withdraw his name.
But then we wouldn’t have witnessed the shameful political free for all.
mtierney said:
Lost, if I had become aware of the possibility, and I were Dr Ford, I would have contacted him personally, or through my attorney, giving him an account of the events 36 years ago as I remembered. I would have told him that, if nominated, I would bring the matter to the senate.
Who knows. Perhaps he might have recalled the night, realized the enormity of the circumstances and hurt, and apologized sincerely. Dr Ford would have spared herself and her family the emotional stress, and at the same time bravely confronted the man she believed did this thing.
This is an insult to joanne’s comments. You should read them again. And again. And even again.
mtierney said:
DaveSchmidt said:It is being used as such for political gamesmanship in my point of view.
mtierney said:This woman’s accusation that she was sexually assaulted is a weapon, is it?
What will become of our elected government if these weapons are at hand? Who would risk everything to participate at any level of government? What will become of anyone’s opposing views on any issue?
Lost, if I had become aware of the possibility, and I were Dr Ford, I would have contacted him personally, or through my attorney, giving him an account of the events 36 years ago as I remembered. I would have told him that, if nominated, I would bring the matter to the senate.
Who knows. Perhaps he might have recalled the night, realized the enormity of the circumstances and hurt, and apologized sincerely. Dr Ford would have spared herself and her family the emotional stress, and at the same time bravely confronted the man she believed did this thing.
Kanvanaugh had a choice: strongly defend his innocence and fight to save his reputation and family, or, withdraw his name.
But then we wouldn’t have witnessed the shameful political free for all.
your suggestion is nutty. Not to mention callous.
mtierney said:
Lost, if I had become aware of the possibility, and I were Dr Ford, I would have contacted him personally, or through my attorney, giving him an account of the events 36 years ago as I remembered. I would have told him that, if nominated, I would bring the matter to the senate.
That would be blackmail. She called her Congressperson. To me that was appropriate.
And frankly, you do not know what you would have done.
mtierney said:
Lost, if I had become aware of the possibility, and I were Dr Ford, I would have contacted him personally, or through my attorney, giving him an account of the events 36 years ago as I remembered. I would have told him that, if nominated, I would bring the matter to the senate.
Who knows. Perhaps he might have recalled the night, realized the enormity of the circumstances and hurt, and apologized sincerely. Dr Ford would have spared herself and her family the emotional stress, and at the same time bravely confronted the man she believed did this thing.
Kanvanaugh had a choice: strongly defend his innocence and fight to save his reputation and family, or, withdraw his name.
But then we wouldn’t have witnessed the shameful political free for all.
Deplorable.
Apology?! It’s a criminal act! He’s building a brilliant career on the appearance of not only never having done such a thing, but also lying about it! And every one of us who has survived something like this knows it!
His reaction is too much, and he has shown himself unworthy. In many other eras, he would have been rejected as too ambitious, too hungry for this role - it’s a truism, societies regret appointing people to positions of power who actually want that power and seek it, imagine themselves wielding it. You should appoint the one who doesn’t want it, who’s humble and just lives quietly.
Respectfully, mtierney, you grew up in an era when women wore girdles and garter belts. They were hunted by men, often working in pairs or packs, and had to ‘preserve themselves’, to ‘police’ their safety.
This man grew up in a different era, in which such behaviour was no longer viewed as ok, but certain classes found a way to sneak around the rules. Books and movies have been made around such themes; despite that, we know in the real world there aren’t neat, pretty endings to these tales.
The position he wants is for an era different again, in which all citizens are entitled to complete and total control of their personal safety, at all times. Males do not prey on females, the powerful do not prey on the weak, the rich do not buy their way out of legal consequences.
Joanne, please know that I in no way doubt the horrific experience of awakening in your own bed, under attack. Certainly, any woman’s worst nightmare. The circumstances described by a very young Dr Ford attending a party in a house where alcohol was offered and no adult was present is not comparable. There were corroborating witnesses and police called to your home.
What was going on in Washington was politics. He said, she said.
If only Dr Ford had been able to tell her parents soon after she returned home. She would have received comfort and the boy would have received just punishment and hopefully both would have sworn off alcohol for life! Both learning major life lessons. Instead a festering pain grew over decades.
Aha, Joanne, yes indeed, women wore pinch proof girdles to insure absolutely nothing “jiggled” while walking! There were popular bras which were so constructed that while dancing with a boy, a safe distance between them was guaranteed.
It was a different era, but certain things never change.
Joanne you are s very strong person.
I can only imagine the terror people ( women and men) who are sexually assaulted must feel. You show an amazing strength of character.
Other people are simply deplorable. Mtierney do you honestly believe that a simple apology makes everyone feel better? I cannot imagine how you twist your mind around forgiving people for doing such harm to others.
As for Kavanaugh, not only gave several women accused him of sexual assault, he’s a liar. He also went on an unbelievable rant on Thursday accusing everyone short of the Pope for this roadblock to a position to which he feels he is entitled. He’s disgusting and so are his defenders.
My husband just said that K’s continued insistence on his ignorance of the events and his values (focusing on his own needs) almost meets the definition of sociopathy.
(He doesn’t pay much attention to politics or current affairs at all)
The scenes of assault don’t matter; that night is no more shocking emotionally than a night a couple of summers before I flirted with a really interesting guy (friend of friends) at a dance party, spent a couple of hours really enjoying talking with him and accepted an invitation to go out, then overheard him laughing about me with other male mates. Not in a nice way. There are a thousand ways to belittle and demean someone; they’re not all rape or assault but they do constitute the charge of abuse.
mtierney said:
Both learning major life lessons.
The teenage sex assault victim, learning a major life lesson. Thank god for silver linings.
DaveSchmidt said:
mtierney said:The teenage sex assault victim, learning a major life lesson. Thank god for silver linings.
Both learning major life lessons.
Misinterpret my words all you want. The lesson learned clearly is for teenagers not to frequent parties at homes where there is no adult presence, and at which underage kids were drinking. Simple rule of safety — wise in 1982, and wise today.
Who do you think leaked the letter Dr Ford had sent to Senator Feinstein, requesting confidentiality? Once that cat was out of the bag, Dr Ford lost control of the events which followed.
Who benefitted from the release of this private information? This letter was in Feinstein’s office for a couple months, but it was released only days before Kavanaugh’s confirmation. I have a hunch it wasn’t a Republican.
We abide by the rule of law: people are innocent until evidence proves them guilty.
mtierney said:We abide by the rule of law: people are innocent until evidence proves them guilty.
In a criminal trial.
You have not adhered to that standard in evaluating accusations against Hillary Clinton.
You began this thread by allegations to which you did not apply "innocent until proven guilty".
How should we interpret your words?
BTW, these hearings are not a criminal trial. Kavanaugh is so unfit for this post.
Furthermore if 15 year old Blasey had immediately reported the incident to the police or told her parents and they told the police and Kavanugh had been charged and put on trial and then be found by a jury "Not Guilty" because they were not convinced "beyond a reasonable doubt" he never would have become a Judge. Despite the "Not Guilty" verdict the accusation itself would have been enough to stand in his way.
Mtierney,
There's one relevant fact. Dr. Ford was assaulted as a teenager. She is positive that Kavanaugh is the perp and he is now be considered for the Supreme Court. That's why Dr. Ford came forward. There's no ritual defamation going on here.
But keep on posting. I like you. You always make me think of the H.L.Mencken quote:
“Misogynist: A man who hates women as much as women hate one another.”
mtierney said:
The lesson learned clearly is for teenagers not to frequent parties at homes where there is no adult presence, and at which underage kids were drinking. Simple rule of safety — wise in 1982, and wise today.
The lesson should be for teenage boys not to assault teenage girls.
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Aha, David, you are the only poster who responded, but you got it only half right! Probably due to the fact you are a male.
I really wanted to use an emoji , but I couldn’t put one where I wanted it. New issue?