What does Putin want (and whatabout it)
drummerboy said:
Steve said:
First, I do my best to ignore Lindsay Graham on all issues. He's worthless.
Second, the point being that maybe, just maybe, the Ukrainians would rather fight for their liberty, risking death, than be subject to Russian rule - not unlike folks in the colonies felt in 1775. It really isn't that difficult of a concept. I just don't understand why you and @nan just can't comprehend it.
It's because they're appeasers.
Drummerboy using another little boy word.
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
The narrative "Russia targets civilians" implies that EVERY attack in which civilians died was the result of Russia (Putin) targeting civilians.
It does no such thing. How does that imply every attack? It doesn't. At all.
You really have a problem with English sometimes.
He doesn’t have a problem with English. He has a slight problem with the truth sometimes.
It’s surprising it took as long as it did for the resort to a “word games” defense, trying to redefine the false statement.
One of your bubbles has burst and you're engaged cleanup.
Sorry Mark, but the narrative that "Russia targets civilians" has been demolished.
Get out of the tankie bubble, Paul. Don't keep pushing lies that are contradicted by the sources you claim to rely on.
Great retort.
The U.S. has routinely attempted to reset relations with Russia since the rise to power of Russian President Vladimir Putin in 2000. The Soviet Union’s collapse led legions of scholars and policy-makers to pivot towards the new issues of a post-Soviet Middle East, Europe, and Asia. An entire generation of Americans hardly thought about Russia. The Russian Federation was seen as a former foe that could be integrated - albeit uneasily - into the international system led by the U.S.
Yet Russia did not view the slate as clean. The Kremlin’s foreign policy narrative, by contrast, soon focused on America’s disregard for its interests and the need to achieve a multipolar international system free of U.S. hegemony. Putin has remained clear on these goals since his ascent to the Kremlin. Russia needed to recover from its weakened state, reestablish itself as a global power, and achieve a new world order that held up the Kremlin as an equal - not a dependent - to the U.S.
Russia lost the Cold War and is not a fraction of its former economic strength. But Putin still wants to be a big swinging dick.
https://www.understandingwar.org/report/how-we-got-here-russia-kremlins-worldview
PVW said:
paulsurovell said:
The longer you push the war the less there will be left of Ukraine. If my position had been adopted, Ukraine would have remained intact -- including the Donbas which would have been autonomous and still part of Ukraine, as called for in the Minsk agreement. Ukraine -- with US support/encouragement -- refused to implement Minsk and disavow membership in NATO. Every tragic death and injury in Ukraine is the result of that policy and its offspring: the fantasy-policy to defeat Russia.
Russia had quite a lot to do with the failure of Minsk, but you always ignore that for some reason.
I'm relying on the explicit, unequivocal rejection of Minsk by Ukrainian officials. That trumps whatever you're alluding to.
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
Right, because Lyndsay Graham speaks for Ukrainian policy.
How much googling did you have to do to increase one person to two?
Lindsey Graham has been at the forefront of US policy in Ukraine for many years.
ooh look, a picture! That means he directs policy!
===================================================
let's take a look at the phrase "fight to the last Ukrainian" for a moment.
What does it mean?
All it is, is a dramatic way of saying "we will not surrender".
Now exactly WTF do you expect them to say?
If the catch phrase was that, would you be trumpeting it every other day? If you did, wouldn't you sound silly?
I swear, the anti-anti-Putin side are a bunch of imbeciles. Or they just expect their audience to be that.Your attempt at "shaming" when you trumpet the phrase "we will not surrender" is an adolescent (at best) approach that is equivalent to reducing the future of Ukraine and the hundreds of thousands of innocents (primarily Ukrainian soldiers) who will die to -- "we're not chicken". Ironically, this is trumpeted mostly by chicken hawks.
shaming? I don't understand that. Off base again, I think you are.
Anyway, I guess if you were a military leader you'd be talking about your intention to surrender.
Good plan.
You use the word "surrender" like a little boy uses the term "chicken". You see the war through a little boy's eyes. Not surprising since that's exactly how the war is presented by major media.
yeah, that still makes no sense.
Do you somehow think it's unreasonable for one side in a war to say they won't surrender?
And what do you call the constant repetition of "fight to the last Ukrainian"? You don't think that's childish? And dishonest?
tjohn said:
The U.S. has routinely attempted to reset relations with Russia since the rise to power of Russian President Vladimir Putin in 2000. The Soviet Union’s collapse led legions of scholars and policy-makers to pivot towards the new issues of a post-Soviet Middle East, Europe, and Asia. An entire generation of Americans hardly thought about Russia. The Russian Federation was seen as a former foe that could be integrated - albeit uneasily - into the international system led by the U.S.
Yet Russia did not view the slate as clean. The Kremlin’s foreign policy narrative, by contrast, soon focused on America’s disregard for its interests and the need to achieve a multipolar international system free of U.S. hegemony. Putin has remained clear on these goals since his ascent to the Kremlin. Russia needed to recover from its weakened state, reestablish itself as a global power, and achieve a new world order that held up the Kremlin as an equal - not a dependent - to the U.S.
Russia lost the Cold War and is not a fraction of its former economic strength. But Putin still wants to be a big swinging dick.
https://www.understandingwar.org/report/how-we-got-here-russia-kremlins-worldview
Better analysis:
https://www.other-news.info/ukraine-is-the-latest-neocon-disaster/
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
nan said:
AI demolished the narrative that "Russia targets civilians". That is upsetting to those who want to push that narrative even if it's proven false. Because it justifies the refusal to acknowledge why Russia invaded which constitutes the only possible terms for a negotiated settlement.
"UKRAINE: RUSSIAN FORCES MUST FACE JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMES IN KYIV OBLAST
Russian forces must face justice for a series of war crimes committed in the region northwest of Kyiv, Amnesty International said today in a new briefing following an extensive on-the-ground investigation.
The briefing, ‘He’s Not Coming Back’: War Crimes in Northwest Areas of Kyiv Oblast, is based on dozens of interviews and extensive review of material evidence. Amnesty International documented unlawful air strikes on Borodyanka, and extrajudicial executions in other towns and villages including Bucha, Andriivka, Zdvyzhivka and Vorzel.
An Amnesty International delegation, led by the organization’s Secretary General, has been visiting the region in recent days, speaking with survivors and families of victims, and meeting with senior Ukrainian officials.
“The pattern of crimes committed by Russian forces that we have documented includes both unlawful attacks and wilful killings of civilians,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General."
Ukraine: “Anyone can die at any time”: Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces in Kharkiv, Ukraine
June 13, 2022Index Number: EUR 50/5682/2022RUSSIAN FEDERATION ARMED CONFLICT
From the beginning of their invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Russian forces launched a relentless campaign of indiscriminate bombardments against Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second-biggest city. They shelled residential neighbourhoods almost daily, killing and injuring hundreds of civilians and causing wholesale destruction, often using widely banned cluster munitions.
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
Right, because Lyndsay Graham speaks for Ukrainian policy.
How much googling did you have to do to increase one person to two?
Lindsey Graham has been at the forefront of US policy in Ukraine for many years.
ooh look, a picture! That means he directs policy!
===================================================
let's take a look at the phrase "fight to the last Ukrainian" for a moment.
What does it mean?
All it is, is a dramatic way of saying "we will not surrender".
Now exactly WTF do you expect them to say?
If the catch phrase was that, would you be trumpeting it every other day? If you did, wouldn't you sound silly?
I swear, the anti-anti-Putin side are a bunch of imbeciles. Or they just expect their audience to be that.Your attempt at "shaming" when you trumpet the phrase "we will not surrender" is an adolescent (at best) approach that is equivalent to reducing the future of Ukraine and the hundreds of thousands of innocents (primarily Ukrainian soldiers) who will die to -- "we're not chicken". Ironically, this is trumpeted mostly by chicken hawks.
shaming? I don't understand that. Off base again, I think you are.
Anyway, I guess if you were a military leader you'd be talking about your intention to surrender.
Good plan.
You use the word "surrender" like a little boy uses the term "chicken". You see the war through a little boy's eyes. Not surprising since that's exactly how the war is presented by major media.
yeah, that still makes no sense.
Do you somehow think it's unreasonable for one side in a war to say they won't surrender?
And what do you call the constant repetition of "fight to the last Ukrainian"? You don't think that's childish? And dishonest?
Grow up and get out of your mainstream bubble. It's lying to you.
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
One of your bubbles has burst and you're engaged cleanup.
Sorry Mark, but the narrative that "Russia targets civilians" has been demolished.
Get out of the tankie bubble, Paul. Don't keep pushing lies that are contradicted by the sources you claim to rely on.
Great retort.
Thank you. It was my succinct way of responding, although this says it with greater detail -
cramer said:
"UKRAINE: RUSSIAN FORCES MUST FACE JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMES IN KYIV OBLAST
Russian forces must face justice for a series of war crimes committed in the region northwest of Kyiv, Amnesty International said today in a new briefing following an extensive on-the-ground investigation.
The briefing, ‘He’s Not Coming Back’: War Crimes in Northwest Areas of Kyiv Oblast, is based on dozens of interviews and extensive review of material evidence. Amnesty International documented unlawful air strikes on Borodyanka, and extrajudicial executions in other towns and villages including Bucha, Andriivka, Zdvyzhivka and Vorzel.
An Amnesty International delegation, led by the organization’s Secretary General, has been visiting the region in recent days, speaking with survivors and families of victims, and meeting with senior Ukrainian officials.
“The pattern of crimes committed by Russian forces that we have documented includes both unlawful attacks and wilful killings of civilians,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General."
Ukraine: “Anyone can die at any time”: Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces in Kharkiv, Ukraine
June 13, 2022Index Number: EUR 50/5682/2022RUSSIAN FEDERATION ARMED CONFLICT
From the beginning of their invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Russian forces launched a relentless campaign of indiscriminate bombardments against Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second-biggest city. They shelled residential neighbourhoods almost daily, killing and injuring hundreds of civilians and causing wholesale destruction, often using widely banned cluster munitions.
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
Right, because Lyndsay Graham speaks for Ukrainian policy.
How much googling did you have to do to increase one person to two?
Lindsey Graham has been at the forefront of US policy in Ukraine for many years.
ooh look, a picture! That means he directs policy!
===================================================
let's take a look at the phrase "fight to the last Ukrainian" for a moment.
What does it mean?
All it is, is a dramatic way of saying "we will not surrender".
Now exactly WTF do you expect them to say?
If the catch phrase was that, would you be trumpeting it every other day? If you did, wouldn't you sound silly?
I swear, the anti-anti-Putin side are a bunch of imbeciles. Or they just expect their audience to be that.Your attempt at "shaming" when you trumpet the phrase "we will not surrender" is an adolescent (at best) approach that is equivalent to reducing the future of Ukraine and the hundreds of thousands of innocents (primarily Ukrainian soldiers) who will die to -- "we're not chicken". Ironically, this is trumpeted mostly by chicken hawks.
shaming? I don't understand that. Off base again, I think you are.
Anyway, I guess if you were a military leader you'd be talking about your intention to surrender.
Good plan.
You use the word "surrender" like a little boy uses the term "chicken". You see the war through a little boy's eyes. Not surprising since that's exactly how the war is presented by major media.
yeah, that still makes no sense.
Do you somehow think it's unreasonable for one side in a war to say they won't surrender?
And what do you call the constant repetition of "fight to the last Ukrainian"? You don't think that's childish? And dishonest?
Grow up and get out of your mainstream bubble. It's lying to you.
ooh. good response!
not.
cramer said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
nan said:
AI demolished the narrative that "Russia targets civilians". That is upsetting to those who want to push that narrative even if it's proven false. Because it justifies the refusal to acknowledge why Russia invaded which constitutes the only possible terms for a negotiated settlement.
"UKRAINE: RUSSIAN FORCES MUST FACE JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMES IN KYIV OBLAST
Russian forces must face justice for a series of war crimes committed in the region northwest of Kyiv, Amnesty International said today in a new briefing following an extensive on-the-ground investigation.
The briefing, ‘He’s Not Coming Back’: War Crimes in Northwest Areas of Kyiv Oblast, is based on dozens of interviews and extensive review of material evidence. Amnesty International documented unlawful air strikes on Borodyanka, and extrajudicial executions in other towns and villages including Bucha, Andriivka, Zdvyzhivka and Vorzel.
An Amnesty International delegation, led by the organization’s Secretary General, has been visiting the region in recent days, speaking with survivors and families of victims, and meeting with senior Ukrainian officials.
“The pattern of crimes committed by Russian forces that we have documented includes both unlawful attacks and wilful killings of civilians,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General."
Ukraine: “Anyone can die at any time”: Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces in Kharkiv, Ukraine
June 13, 2022Index Number: EUR 50/5682/2022RUSSIAN FEDERATION ARMED CONFLICT
From the beginning of their invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Russian forces launched a relentless campaign of indiscriminate bombardments against Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second-biggest city. They shelled residential neighbourhoods almost daily, killing and injuring hundreds of civilians and causing wholesale destruction, often using widely banned cluster munitions.
After the new Amnesty report, "They shelled residential neighborhoods" becomes "They shelled residential neighborhoods because they had been converted into military facilities".
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
Right, because Lyndsay Graham speaks for Ukrainian policy.
How much googling did you have to do to increase one person to two?
Lindsey Graham has been at the forefront of US policy in Ukraine for many years.
ooh look, a picture! That means he directs policy!
===================================================
let's take a look at the phrase "fight to the last Ukrainian" for a moment.
What does it mean?
All it is, is a dramatic way of saying "we will not surrender".
Now exactly WTF do you expect them to say?
If the catch phrase was that, would you be trumpeting it every other day? If you did, wouldn't you sound silly?
I swear, the anti-anti-Putin side are a bunch of imbeciles. Or they just expect their audience to be that.Your attempt at "shaming" when you trumpet the phrase "we will not surrender" is an adolescent (at best) approach that is equivalent to reducing the future of Ukraine and the hundreds of thousands of innocents (primarily Ukrainian soldiers) who will die to -- "we're not chicken". Ironically, this is trumpeted mostly by chicken hawks.
shaming? I don't understand that. Off base again, I think you are.
Anyway, I guess if you were a military leader you'd be talking about your intention to surrender.
Good plan.
You use the word "surrender" like a little boy uses the term "chicken". You see the war through a little boy's eyes. Not surprising since that's exactly how the war is presented by major media.
yeah, that still makes no sense.
Do you somehow think it's unreasonable for one side in a war to say they won't surrender?
And what do you call the constant repetition of "fight to the last Ukrainian"? You don't think that's childish? And dishonest?
Grow up and get out of your mainstream bubble. It's lying to you.
ooh. good response!
not.
So glad you included the "ooh" and the "not".
paulsurovell said:
After the new Amnesty report, "They shelled residential neighborhoods" becomes "They shelled residential neighborhoods because they had been converted into military facilities".
Paul, you know that’s a lie.
Even in the report you claim to rely on, it specifically says that not every location was a military facility.
It was quoted to you, you saw it and responded.
paulsurovell said:
cramer said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
nan said:
AI demolished the narrative that "Russia targets civilians". That is upsetting to those who want to push that narrative even if it's proven false. Because it justifies the refusal to acknowledge why Russia invaded which constitutes the only possible terms for a negotiated settlement.
"UKRAINE: RUSSIAN FORCES MUST FACE JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMES IN KYIV OBLAST
Russian forces must face justice for a series of war crimes committed in the region northwest of Kyiv, Amnesty International said today in a new briefing following an extensive on-the-ground investigation.
The briefing, ‘He’s Not Coming Back’: War Crimes in Northwest Areas of Kyiv Oblast, is based on dozens of interviews and extensive review of material evidence. Amnesty International documented unlawful air strikes on Borodyanka, and extrajudicial executions in other towns and villages including Bucha, Andriivka, Zdvyzhivka and Vorzel.
An Amnesty International delegation, led by the organization’s Secretary General, has been visiting the region in recent days, speaking with survivors and families of victims, and meeting with senior Ukrainian officials.
“The pattern of crimes committed by Russian forces that we have documented includes both unlawful attacks and wilful killings of civilians,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General."
Ukraine: “Anyone can die at any time”: Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces in Kharkiv, Ukraine
June 13, 2022Index Number: EUR 50/5682/2022RUSSIAN FEDERATION ARMED CONFLICT
From the beginning of their invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Russian forces launched a relentless campaign of indiscriminate bombardments against Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second-biggest city. They shelled residential neighbourhoods almost daily, killing and injuring hundreds of civilians and causing wholesale destruction, often using widely banned cluster munitions.
After the new Amnesty report, "They shelled residential neighborhoods" becomes "They shelled residential neighborhoods because they had been converted into military facilities".
I quoted you as saying "AI demolished the narrative that " Russia targets civilians." Then I quoted two AI reports that say Russa targets civilians,
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
One of your bubbles has burst and you're engaged cleanup.
Sorry Mark, but the narrative that "Russia targets civilians" has been demolished.
Get out of the tankie bubble, Paul. Don't keep pushing lies that are contradicted by the sources you claim to rely on.
Great retort.
Thank you. It was my succinct way of responding, although this says it with greater detail -
Click to Read More
See above response.
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:
One of your bubbles has burst and you're engaged cleanup.
Sorry Mark, but the narrative that "Russia targets civilians" has been demolished.
Get out of the tankie bubble, Paul. Don't keep pushing lies that are contradicted by the sources you claim to rely on.
Great retort.
Thank you. It was my succinct way of responding, although this says it with greater detail -
Click to Read MoreSee above response.
See above repsonse.
The Russian, by virtue of having started an entirely optional war, are guilty of all war crimes deriving from that war. It's really quite simple.
For the same reason, I don't generally complain about the Russians monstrous treatment of the Germans in WW II. Germany started it.
cramer said:
paulsurovell said:
cramer said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
nan said:
AI demolished the narrative that "Russia targets civilians". That is upsetting to those who want to push that narrative even if it's proven false. Because it justifies the refusal to acknowledge why Russia invaded which constitutes the only possible terms for a negotiated settlement.
"UKRAINE: RUSSIAN FORCES MUST FACE JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMES IN KYIV OBLAST
Russian forces must face justice for a series of war crimes committed in the region northwest of Kyiv, Amnesty International said today in a new briefing following an extensive on-the-ground investigation.
The briefing, ‘He’s Not Coming Back’: War Crimes in Northwest Areas of Kyiv Oblast, is based on dozens of interviews and extensive review of material evidence. Amnesty International documented unlawful air strikes on Borodyanka, and extrajudicial executions in other towns and villages including Bucha, Andriivka, Zdvyzhivka and Vorzel.
An Amnesty International delegation, led by the organization’s Secretary General, has been visiting the region in recent days, speaking with survivors and families of victims, and meeting with senior Ukrainian officials.
“The pattern of crimes committed by Russian forces that we have documented includes both unlawful attacks and wilful killings of civilians,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General."
Ukraine: “Anyone can die at any time”: Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces in Kharkiv, Ukraine
June 13, 2022Index Number: EUR 50/5682/2022RUSSIAN FEDERATION ARMED CONFLICT
From the beginning of their invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Russian forces launched a relentless campaign of indiscriminate bombardments against Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second-biggest city. They shelled residential neighbourhoods almost daily, killing and injuring hundreds of civilians and causing wholesale destruction, often using widely banned cluster munitions.
After the new Amnesty report, "They shelled residential neighborhoods" becomes "They shelled residential neighborhoods because they had been converted into military facilities".
I quoted you as saying "AI demolished the narrative that " Russia targets civilians." Then I quoted two AI reports that say Russa targets civilians,
Here's one of thousands of examples of how the media has promoted the narrative to American audiences, so many times that they assume it's true. But AI found that Ukraine has systematically positioned soldiers and military equipment in civilian areas, exposing the narrative as war propaganda.
tjohn said:
The Russian, by virtue of having started an entirely optional war, are guilty of all war crimes deriving from that war. It's really quite simple.
For the same reason, I don't generally complain about the Russians monstrous treatment of the Germans in WW II. Germany started it.
The first two sentences are true, but Ukraine's practice of putting soldiers and weapons in civilian facilities is a violation of laws of war and potentially a war crime.
paulsurovell said:
cramer said:
paulsurovell said:
cramer said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
nan said:
AI demolished the narrative that "Russia targets civilians". That is upsetting to those who want to push that narrative even if it's proven false. Because it justifies the refusal to acknowledge why Russia invaded which constitutes the only possible terms for a negotiated settlement.
"UKRAINE: RUSSIAN FORCES MUST FACE JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMES IN KYIV OBLAST
Russian forces must face justice for a series of war crimes committed in the region northwest of Kyiv, Amnesty International said today in a new briefing following an extensive on-the-ground investigation.
The briefing, ‘He’s Not Coming Back’: War Crimes in Northwest Areas of Kyiv Oblast, is based on dozens of interviews and extensive review of material evidence. Amnesty International documented unlawful air strikes on Borodyanka, and extrajudicial executions in other towns and villages including Bucha, Andriivka, Zdvyzhivka and Vorzel.
An Amnesty International delegation, led by the organization’s Secretary General, has been visiting the region in recent days, speaking with survivors and families of victims, and meeting with senior Ukrainian officials.
“The pattern of crimes committed by Russian forces that we have documented includes both unlawful attacks and wilful killings of civilians,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General."
Ukraine: “Anyone can die at any time”: Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces in Kharkiv, Ukraine
June 13, 2022Index Number: EUR 50/5682/2022RUSSIAN FEDERATION ARMED CONFLICT
From the beginning of their invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Russian forces launched a relentless campaign of indiscriminate bombardments against Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second-biggest city. They shelled residential neighbourhoods almost daily, killing and injuring hundreds of civilians and causing wholesale destruction, often using widely banned cluster munitions.
After the new Amnesty report, "They shelled residential neighborhoods" becomes "They shelled residential neighborhoods because they had been converted into military facilities".
I quoted you as saying "AI demolished the narrative that " Russia targets civilians." Then I quoted two AI reports that say Russa targets civilians,
Here's one of thousands of examples of how the media has promoted the narrative to American audiences, so many times that they assume it's true. But AI found that Ukraine has systematically positioned soldiers and military equipment in civilian areas, exposing the narrative as war propaganda.
You are wrong when you say Russa doesn't target civilians as my links to two AI research articles show.
Scott Ritter once again expressing important truths and warnings. Looks like this was published by RT instead of NYT. Shame on NYT.
Scott Ritter speaking the obvious, because the media won't publish the obvious. https://t.co/ihCYlhkjeW
— Paul Surovell (@paulsurovell) August 8, 2022
cramer said:
paulsurovell said:
cramer said:
paulsurovell said:
cramer said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
nan said:
AI demolished the narrative that "Russia targets civilians". That is upsetting to those who want to push that narrative even if it's proven false. Because it justifies the refusal to acknowledge why Russia invaded which constitutes the only possible terms for a negotiated settlement.
"UKRAINE: RUSSIAN FORCES MUST FACE JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMES IN KYIV OBLAST
Russian forces must face justice for a series of war crimes committed in the region northwest of Kyiv, Amnesty International said today in a new briefing following an extensive on-the-ground investigation.
The briefing, ‘He’s Not Coming Back’: War Crimes in Northwest Areas of Kyiv Oblast, is based on dozens of interviews and extensive review of material evidence. Amnesty International documented unlawful air strikes on Borodyanka, and extrajudicial executions in other towns and villages including Bucha, Andriivka, Zdvyzhivka and Vorzel.
An Amnesty International delegation, led by the organization’s Secretary General, has been visiting the region in recent days, speaking with survivors and families of victims, and meeting with senior Ukrainian officials.
“The pattern of crimes committed by Russian forces that we have documented includes both unlawful attacks and wilful killings of civilians,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General."
Ukraine: “Anyone can die at any time”: Indiscriminate attacks by Russian forces in Kharkiv, Ukraine
June 13, 2022Index Number: EUR 50/5682/2022RUSSIAN FEDERATION ARMED CONFLICT
From the beginning of their invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Russian forces launched a relentless campaign of indiscriminate bombardments against Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second-biggest city. They shelled residential neighbourhoods almost daily, killing and injuring hundreds of civilians and causing wholesale destruction, often using widely banned cluster munitions.
After the new Amnesty report, "They shelled residential neighborhoods" becomes "They shelled residential neighborhoods because they had been converted into military facilities".
I quoted you as saying "AI demolished the narrative that " Russia targets civilians." Then I quoted two AI reports that say Russa targets civilians,
Here's one of thousands of examples of how the media has promoted the narrative to American audiences, so many times that they assume it's true. But AI found that Ukraine has systematically positioned soldiers and military equipment in civilian areas, exposing the narrative as war propaganda.
You are wrong when you say Russa doesn't target civilians as my links to two AI research articles show.
Ukraine: Civilians killed by ‘reckless’ Russian attacks on Serhiivka apartment block and beach resort
"Russian air strikes on an apartment block and beach resort hotel in the coastal town of Serhiivka in southern Ukraine killed at least 21 civilians, Amnesty International said today following a new on-the-ground investigation.
The strikes, apparently using anti-ship missiles, hit the town in the Odesa region shortly before 1am on 1 July, injuring at least 35 people. Five people remain in serious condition in intensive care, meaning the total death toll may rise.
“These powerful weapons were designed to destroy warships, and firing them into residential areas is extremely reckless,” said Donatella Rovera, Amnesty International’s Senior Crisis Response Adviser.
“This attack is yet another example of the Russian military’s utter disregard for civilians in Ukraine as they continue to cause needless death and destruction. All those responsible for such war crimes must face justice for their actions.”
Amnesty International visited the strike locations in Serhiivka and found no evidence of the presence of Ukrainian soldiers, weapons, or other valid military targets nearby. Satellite imagery reviewed by Amnesty International also did not indicate any military activity in the area prior to the attack."
I found that Amnesty International, having no HIMARS of its own, it valuable primarily when it supports a pre-existing point of view.
Put more succinctly, once the balloon goes up, organizations such as Amnesty International become background noise.
It is certainly Russia's m.o. to hammer civilian areas - Aleppo comes to mind.
Part of it is a deliberate campaign of terror and part of it is a shortage of PGMs.
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
Right, because Lyndsay Graham speaks for Ukrainian policy.
How much googling did you have to do to increase one person to two?
Lindsey Graham has been at the forefront of US policy in Ukraine for many years.
ooh look, a picture! That means he directs policy!
===================================================
let's take a look at the phrase "fight to the last Ukrainian" for a moment.
What does it mean?
All it is, is a dramatic way of saying "we will not surrender".
Now exactly WTF do you expect them to say?
If the catch phrase was that, would you be trumpeting it every other day? If you did, wouldn't you sound silly?
I swear, the anti-anti-Putin side are a bunch of imbeciles. Or they just expect their audience to be that.Your attempt at "shaming" when you trumpet the phrase "we will not surrender" is an adolescent (at best) approach that is equivalent to reducing the future of Ukraine and the hundreds of thousands of innocents (primarily Ukrainian soldiers) who will die to -- "we're not chicken". Ironically, this is trumpeted mostly by chicken hawks.
shaming? I don't understand that. Off base again, I think you are.
Anyway, I guess if you were a military leader you'd be talking about your intention to surrender.
Good plan.
You use the word "surrender" like a little boy uses the term "chicken". You see the war through a little boy's eyes. Not surprising since that's exactly how the war is presented by major media.
yeah, that still makes no sense.
Do you somehow think it's unreasonable for one side in a war to say they won't surrender?
And what do you call the constant repetition of "fight to the last Ukrainian"? You don't think that's childish? And dishonest?
Grow up and get out of your mainstream bubble. It's lying to you.
Nope...YOU are the liar !
Dennis_Seelbach said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
Right, because Lyndsay Graham speaks for Ukrainian policy.
How much googling did you have to do to increase one person to two?
Lindsey Graham has been at the forefront of US policy in Ukraine for many years.
ooh look, a picture! That means he directs policy!
===================================================
let's take a look at the phrase "fight to the last Ukrainian" for a moment.
What does it mean?
All it is, is a dramatic way of saying "we will not surrender".
Now exactly WTF do you expect them to say?
If the catch phrase was that, would you be trumpeting it every other day? If you did, wouldn't you sound silly?
I swear, the anti-anti-Putin side are a bunch of imbeciles. Or they just expect their audience to be that.Your attempt at "shaming" when you trumpet the phrase "we will not surrender" is an adolescent (at best) approach that is equivalent to reducing the future of Ukraine and the hundreds of thousands of innocents (primarily Ukrainian soldiers) who will die to -- "we're not chicken". Ironically, this is trumpeted mostly by chicken hawks.
shaming? I don't understand that. Off base again, I think you are.
Anyway, I guess if you were a military leader you'd be talking about your intention to surrender.
Good plan.
You use the word "surrender" like a little boy uses the term "chicken". You see the war through a little boy's eyes. Not surprising since that's exactly how the war is presented by major media.
yeah, that still makes no sense.
Do you somehow think it's unreasonable for one side in a war to say they won't surrender?
And what do you call the constant repetition of "fight to the last Ukrainian"? You don't think that's childish? And dishonest?
Grow up and get out of your mainstream bubble. It's lying to you.
Nope...YOU are the liar !
Go back to your BINGO game, before they call your number.
Sanctions update:
Greenfield and Pelosi competing to see who can turn the most people against the US.
paulsurovell said:
Sanctions update:
Greenfield and Pelosi competing to see who can turn the most people against the US.
Here is what Ambassador Thomas-Greenfield said.
https://www.macaubusiness.com/mozambique-us-diplomat-warns-against-buying-russian-oil/
And Russia is busy wooing African nations. As is China.
Presumably, African nations will look at all of this and try to figure out what is in their best interest.
So, none of this is a big deal.
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Killing a country and its people to prevent part of the country from being autonomous and to disavow a military alliance that's hostile to its neighbor isn't comparable to the options available to the colonies in 1775.