Jayzus. There are a ton of fair and balanced articles available from any number of reputable sources explaining how it came to war in the Ukraine.
I am not going to waste my time watching some biased raw sewage put together by clever screen play writers who can tell a convincing tale about anything.
The sad thing is, Nan, that you want to peddle this infomercial crap and claim the rest of us are blinded by this thing you call the mainstream media when many people on this thread have posted links to fair and balanced articles by people who actually know what the **** they are talking about.
I did watch Ukraine on Fire and skimmed through the last one - and even cited an example (which you haven't replied to). I feel the whole thing is propaganda - so I'm asking you which particular piece would you want to people to see?
It truly is pure Russian propaganda and it's remarkable that you're embracing it so much - weird. Fortunately, it doesn't appear that many other people are.
And when Putin does have a public video clip in the movie - it's him walking through huge golden doors. Ugh! At least it's not western propaganda - right!!
Jayzus. There are a ton of fair and balanced articles available from any number of reputable sources explaining how it came to war in the Ukraine.
I am not going to waste my time watching some biased raw sewage put together by clever screen play writers who can tell a convincing tale about anything.
The sad thing is, Nan, that you want to peddle this infomercial crap and claim the rest of us are blinded by this thing you call the mainstream media when many people on this thread have posted links to fair and balanced articles by people who actually know what the **** they are talking about.
Tjohn,
You spout nonsense about Ukraine, just crazy disconnected dribble. You would not know "fair and balanced" from a crooked twig falling off a rock. If you don't want to watch a different viewpont than don't but your characterization of what you have not watched is false and way out of line.
Look, you act like the history of Ukraine started in 2014 and that everything is our fault. I am well aware of the stupid and immoral things we have done through out our history, but there is so much more to the Ukraine mess than just that.
Neither you nor Paul can seem to answer relevant and related questions? And I list these three events because they inform Putin's view of the U.S. and NATO.
Should we have been involved in any way in the fighting in the Balkans in the 1990's other than trying to broker a peace deal?
Should we have been involved at all in the Syrian internal warfare?
Should we have been involved at all in the Libyan rebellion?
Should be have been involved in the fight against ISIS?
Should we have intervened when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
With the exception of the Kuwait invasion, I tend to lean towards no, but that means we get a steady news feed of tremendous human suffering knowing that all we will do is wring our hands.
It's not a "propaganda piece." It has bias as does every documentary, but it's not written just to brainwash a whole population into accepting an extreme view.
It's from Russian government media, the people who brought you "It's illegal to call it a 'war'."
I can see quite a few scenarios in which Ukraine doesn't get invaded by Russia. What is less clear to me are the scenarios under which Ukraine is a fully independent nation free to form its own policies and associations. And just for fun, we'll assume Ukraine swears off of NATO but not the EU.
And, of course, to complicate matters, it seems that Ukrainians have strong feelings on this subject.
I did watch Ukraine on Fire and skimmed through the last one - and even cited an example (which you haven't replied to). I feel the whole thing is propaganda - so I'm asking you which particular piece would you want to people to see?
It truly is pure Russian propaganda and it's remarkable that you're embracing it so much - weird. Fortunately, it doesn't appear that many other people are.
And when Putin does have a public video clip in the movie - it's him walking through huge golden doors. Ugh! At least it's not western propaganda - right!!
If you watched it than you can critique it. You hate Putin so much that anything about him that is not 100% negative reads as propaganda to you. That's because you are used to US media where everything said about him is 100% negative. It's all black and white. This makes it impossible for you to see the larger picture. You can't accept that your country had anything to do with this war, never mind funded Nazis groups to help them overthrow the government of Ukraine, making it a client state and waging proxy war with Russia. You can't see that the Ukrainians have been murdering their own people for eight years in an ethnic cleansing campaign using US weapons.
But that's what happened. Those movies are not going to win Oscars but they have the facts on that straight.
"Nazi sympathizer" interrupts newscast of glorious government media channel.
Wow. A woman with a poster that says "No war, stop the war, don't believe the propaganda, they're lying to you" runs out behind the famous anchor on Channel 1, the Kremlin's flagship TV channel. https://t.co/X2LwmyuKn2
If you watched it than you can critique it. You hate Putin so much that anything about him that is not 100% negative reads as propaganda to you. That's because you are used to US media where everything said about him is 100% negative. It's all black and white. This makes it impossible for you to see the larger picture. You can't accept that your country had anything to do with this war, never mind funded Nazis groups to help them overthrow the government of Ukraine, making it a client state and waging proxy war with Russia. You can't see that the Ukrainians have been murdering their own people for eight years in an ethnic cleansing campaign using US weapons.
Same energy -
Zelenskyy was installed via a US backed color revaluation, his goal is to move his county west so he virtue signals in woke ideology while using nazi battalions to crush his enemies.
Around the 1:45 minute the film compares Zelenskyy's Indigenous peoples act to the 1935 Reich citizen law of Hitler's Germany.
The interpretation in the film states that Russian people are NOT "fully fledged" people. WTF
Why are you linking to this junk? Or at least find us data for the content in the videos you're telling us to watch,
Just provide a link which shows an apt comparison of the two acts.
All of this is to once again - is to prove and promote Nazism in Ukraine.
Here some context about it I found:
Why Putin is irritated at the bill on Ukraine’s indigenous peoples
On May 18, 2021, the Day of Remembrance of Victims of the Deportation of the Crimean Tatar People, President Zelenskyi introduced the draft law on indigenous peoples to the Parliament. The bill does not say a word about Russians. On July 1, the Parliament passed the bill. At the time of this writing, the President has not yet signed it into law.
The bill defines Crimean Tatars, Karaites, and Krymchaks as the indigenous peoples of Ukraine. By legal definition they are “an indigenous ethnic community native to the territory of Ukraine, they have their unique language and culture, traditional, social, cultural, or representation bodies, they self-identify as an indigenous people of Ukraine,” and they do not have a state of their own outside Ukraine. The law is also to foster “the consolidation and development of the Ukrainian nation, as well as the development of ethnic, cultural, language, and religious uniqueness of all the indigenous peoples of Ukraine.”
Putin’s reaction: “a hit on the Russian people”.
Putin’s reaction to the bill was unexpectedly strong. In early June, he called the draft law on Ukraine’s indigenous peoples “a strong and serious hit on the Russian people overall.” To speak of Russians as a non-indigenous people of Ukraine is “not just incorrect, but also ridiculous and stupid, it contradicts historical facts,” Putin said. “Division into indigenous, first-class, second-class categories of people and so on – this completely smacks of the theory and practice of Nazi Germany,” the Russian President proceeded.
I was also curious about this but have not been able to find any more info from a reliable or even semi-reliable source. So, I will keep looking. If it is as described in the movie, it's very serious. But not enough information yet.
Look, you act like the history of Ukraine started in 2014 and that everything is our fault. I am well aware of the stupid and immoral things we have done through out our history, but there is so much more to the Ukraine mess than just that.
Neither you nor Paul can seem to answer relevant and related questions? And I list these three events because they inform Putin's view of the U.S. and NATO.
Should we have been involved in any way in the fighting in the Balkans in the 1990's other than trying to broker a peace deal?
Should we have been involved at all in the Syrian internal warfare?
Should we have been involved at all in the Libyan rebellion?
Should be have been involved in the fight against ISIS?
Should we have intervened when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
With the exception of the Kuwait invasion, I tend to lean towards no, but that means we get a steady news feed of tremendous human suffering knowing that all we will do is wring our hands.
The last movie I most recently recommended starts with Ukraine breaking away from the USSR in the early 1990s. It shows how unprepared they were for independence and vulnerable to vulture capitalists and other problems. It's a good movie just for the timeline of events and listening to the people who lived through those times (some seem shellshocked). I learned a lot I did not known or had forgotten.
My big concern here is 1) our government frequently lies us into supporting useless wars, 2) A war with Russia will be nuclear.
All governments present things as they want you to see them, so screaming about Russian Propaganda and believing US media hook, line and sinker is no improvement. Best to get multiple viewpoints with a skeptical eye to all.
interesting historical perspective (from the early 90's) on Ukraine/Russia
Ben Judah is a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council which is the PR branch of NATO. He has the comments adjusted so that only those he allows can respond. Just want to point this out since this will not be fair or balanced. Might still be worth reading.
I will read through this although I have not read the book. Have you?
The last movie I most recently recommended starts with Ukraine breaking away from the USSR in the early 1990s. It shows how unprepared they were for independence and vulnerable to vulture capitalists and other problems. It's a good movie just for the timeline of events and listening to the people who lived through those times (some seem shellshocked). I learned a lot I did not known or had forgotten.
My big concern here is 1) our government frequently lies us into supporting useless wars, 2) A war with Russia will be nuclear.
All governments present things as they want you to see them, so screaming about Russian Propaganda and believing US media hook, line and sinker is no improvement. Best to get multiple viewpoints with a skeptical eye to all.
As was Russia. Vulture capitalists ran wild in Yeltsin's Russia. And then Putin corralled them.
The bigger problem with the war in Ukraine is the genuine outpouring of emotional support for Ukrainians. This affects government decisions just as much as backroom machinations. There is going to be great pressure to escalate in the coming weeks and we simply cannot escalate our way out of this war.
interesting historical perspective (from the early 90's) on Ukraine/Russia
Ben Judah is a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council which is the PR branch of NATO. He has the comments adjusted so that only those he allows can respond. Just want to point this out since this will not be fair or balanced. Might still be worth reading.
I will read through this although I have not read the book. Have you?
You are quick to criticize someone's credentials and background - yet when someone points out the rather obvious fact that a video coming out of state-run media by a state well known for suppressing and controlling the press might be a problem, you get all up in arms.
Personally I wouldn't waste 5 seconds on media coming out of RT.
More on the woman who slandered Russia's troops with her Nazi propaganda.
This woman, Marina Ovsyannikova, has been arrested and charged with violating the new law against "discrediting the use of Russian troops." https://t.co/DpM0UmAr7ihttps://t.co/xXME9HQ2kk
@nan - what is good about Putin? You keep saying that he is not 100% evil/bad/whatever, but you have yet to say what is good about him.
I'm not in some Putin fan club. My main beef is the neocon driven media presentation of him as a cardboard Disney villain whose insane and just wants world domination. It's projection. The US is the nation that wants world domination. After the cold war ended we were getting along with Russia and even did some joint projects. I think Putin was open to that but the neocons and NATO want to continue this Dr. Evil Putin in Russia to justify all the expenditures on military weapons. They also don't like that he's about doing things for his country, not the US.
Russiagate, which was a hoax, also contributed to intense anti-Russian views and the belief that he swayed the 2016 election for Trump and had some kind of a love-fest going with him. Meanwhile Trump was selling arms to Ukraine and bombing Syria and broke off the nuclear arms treaty. But try telling that to a Democrat. They were like "where is Ukraine?" Now they want to put a no fly zone over it and start a nuclear war.
So, I guess what's good about Putin is that, unlike what you hear on CNN/MSNBC, he's not insane and he's not planning world domination. He's intelligent. He has run Russia for a long time and gets reelected. He's way better than drunk Boris Yeltsen was (US Puppet). I don't believe a lot of the stories about him poisoning lots of people, etc, but I don't think he's Mr. Nice Guy either. Clearly they have lots of problems over there, but it's not our country and we have our own problems to worry about.
So, he's typical of the type of people who run countries. I think he's given up on good US relations and is instead turning to China and other countries for alliances. Wouldn't it be nice that instead of fighting, the big countries of the world could come together and fight climate change instead? You know what country makes that the least likely? It begins with a U.
@nan - what is good about Putin? You keep saying that he is not 100% evil/bad/whatever, but you have yet to say what is good about him.
I'm not in some Putin fan club. My main beef is the neocon driven media presentation of him as a cardboard Disney villain whose insane and just wants world domination. It's projection. The US is the nation that wants world domination. After the cold war ended we were getting along with Russia and even did some joint projects. I think Putin was open to that but the neocons and NATO want to continue this Dr. Evil Putin in Russia to justify all the expenditures on military weapons. They also don't like that he's about doing things for his country, not the US.
Russiagate, which was a hoax, also contributed to intense anti-Russian views and the belief that he swayed the 2016 election for Trump and had some kind of a love-fest going with him. Meanwhile Trump was selling arms to Ukraine and bombing Syria and broke off the nuclear arms treaty. But try telling that to a Democrat. They were like "where is Ukraine?" Now they want to put a no fly zone over it and start a nuclear war.
So, I guess what's good about Putin is that, unlike what you hear on CNN/MSNBC, he's not insane and he's not planning world domination. He's intelligent. He has run Russia for a long time and gets reelected. He's way better than drunk Boris Yeltsen was (US Puppet). I don't believe a lot of the stories about him poisoning lots of people, etc, but I don't think he's Mr. Nice Guy either. Clearly they have lots of problems over there, but it's not our country and we have our own problems to worry about.
So, he's typical of the type of people who run countries. I think he's given up on good US relations and is instead turning to China and other countries for alliances. Wouldn't it be nice that instead of fighting, the big countries of the world could come together and fight climate change instead? You know what country makes that the least likely? It begins with a U.
the gish gallop continues.
can you name one "neo-con" that is influential today?
I asked you earlier for the Dems pushing for war. Still waiting. Who are they, exactly?
And I guarantee every time you say "Russiagate hoax" a thousand eyes roll here on MOL. The amount of evidence that you ignore is just staggering.
@nan - what is good about Putin? You keep saying that he is not 100% evil/bad/whatever, but you have yet to say what is good about him.
So, I guess what's good about Putin is that, unlike what you hear on CNN/MSNBC, he's not insane and he's not planning world domination. He's intelligent. He has run Russia for a long time and gets reelected. He's way better than drunk Boris Yeltsen was (US Puppet). I don't believe a lot of the storiesabout him poisoning lots of people, etc, but I don't think he's Mr. Nice Guy either. Clearly they have lots of problems over there, but it's not our country and we have our own problems to worry about.
So, I guess what's good about Putin is that, unlike what you hear on CNN/MSNBC, he's not insane and he's not planning world domination. He's intelligent. He has run Russia for a long time and gets reelected. ...
Poisoning and arresting opposition politicians makes reelection a piece of cake.
"Ukraine: The Everlasting Present" is an RT production. RT is under the Russian government.
Media Literacy 101 says that, before sharing something like that, one should look for other sources to provide "vetting" of the film, or at least a basic fact check of claims on which its arguments are based.
[Edited to add] Here's an RT article from last fall, promoting the movie and summarizing some of its key, pre-invasion, propaganda.
The US has censored RT and Sputnik radio which is sad because it had some terrific programs which had nothing to do with Russia or Putin. They gave air space to shut out voices from many spheres. Chris Hedges had a great interview show. Abby Martin had a good show. It's a big loss for diversity of thought. Media literacy 101 does not care about diversity of thought. It wants you to be obedient instead of thinking for yourself.
I'd trust the sketchy disbarred lawyer guy from the Duran before I'd listen to them. Same goes for Wikipedia.
@nan - what is good about Putin? You keep saying that he is not 100% evil/bad/whatever, but you have yet to say what is good about him.
I'm not in some Putin fan club. My main beef is the neocon driven media presentation of him as a cardboard Disney villain whose insane and just wants world domination. It's projection. The US is the nation that wants world domination. After the cold war ended we were getting along with Russia and even did some joint projects. I think Putin was open to that but the neocons and NATO want to continue this Dr. Evil Putin in Russia to justify all the expenditures on military weapons. They also don't like that he's about doing things for his country, not the US.
Russiagate, which was a hoax, also contributed to intense anti-Russian views and the belief that he swayed the 2016 election for Trump and had some kind of a love-fest going with him. Meanwhile Trump was selling arms to Ukraine and bombing Syria and broke off the nuclear arms treaty. But try telling that to a Democrat. They were like "where is Ukraine?" Now they want to put a no fly zone over it and start a nuclear war.
So, I guess what's good about Putin is that, unlike what you hear on CNN/MSNBC, he's not insane and he's not planning world domination. He's intelligent. He has run Russia for a long time and gets reelected. He's way better than drunk Boris Yeltsen was (US Puppet). I don't believe a lot of the stories about him poisoning lots of people, etc, but I don't think he's Mr. Nice Guy either. Clearly they have lots of problems over there, but it's not our country and we have our own problems to worry about.
So, he's typical of the type of people who run countries. I think he's given up on good US relations and is instead turning to China and other countries for alliances. Wouldn't it be nice that instead of fighting, the big countries of the world could come together and fight climate change instead? You know what country makes that the least likely? It begins with a U.
ugh - who's doing the Russian caricature now? It's nice to know how you think we think - you teach us on every post.
It comes down to a MSM rant every single time.
Wonder if the people whose towns are currently being destroyed have the same impression of Vlad as you. Some of them probably think he could be a little evil. They'd be a little sad to read your posts. Very Trumpian.
@nan - what is good about Putin? You keep saying that he is not 100% evil/bad/whatever, but you have yet to say what is good about him.
I'm not in some Putin fan club. My main beef is the neocon driven media presentation of him as a cardboard Disney villain whose insane and just wants world domination. It's projection. The US is the nation that wants world domination. After the cold war ended we were getting along with Russia and even did some joint projects. I think Putin was open to that but the neocons and NATO want to continue this Dr. Evil Putin in Russia to justify all the expenditures on military weapons. They also don't like that he's about doing things for his country, not the US.
Russiagate, which was a hoax, also contributed to intense anti-Russian views and the belief that he swayed the 2016 election for Trump and had some kind of a love-fest going with him. Meanwhile Trump was selling arms to Ukraine and bombing Syria and broke off the nuclear arms treaty. But try telling that to a Democrat. They were like "where is Ukraine?" Now they want to put a no fly zone over it and start a nuclear war.
So, I guess what's good about Putin is that, unlike what you hear on CNN/MSNBC, he's not insane and he's not planning world domination. He's intelligent. He has run Russia for a long time and gets reelected. He's way better than drunk Boris Yeltsen was (US Puppet). I don't believe a lot of the stories about him poisoning lots of people, etc, but I don't think he's Mr. Nice Guy either. Clearly they have lots of problems over there, but it's not our country and we have our own problems to worry about.
So, he's typical of the type of people who run countries. I think he's given up on good US relations and is instead turning to China and other countries for alliances. Wouldn't it be nice that instead of fighting, the big countries of the world could come together and fight climate change instead? You know what country makes that the least likely? It begins with a U.
There's so much here to unpack but I just don't have the time. Instead, I'll focus on the part in which you actually purported to answer the question (which I've bolded). If what you say is true - that he's not insane - why do you keep saying that he'll use nuclear weapons and blow us all to hell? Taking steps that will result in your own destruction is, shall we say, not the aciton of a sane person.
P.S, While he is not seeking "world domination," he is most clearly and definitely seeking to restore the old USSR.
It's long, but nowhere near as long as a movie, and since it's written rather than video you can go through at your own pace, re-read, pause and come back, go to other sources to follow up on unfamiliar words or topics -- all the advantages the written word has over video for learning about complex topics.
What I liked about this article is that it really makes the attempt to take seriously the perspective of all the parties involved -- the Ukrainians, the Russians, the eastern European states, the NATO countries -- but it doesn't shy away from truth in doing so (eg forthrightly says that Putin attempted to have Navalny murdered via nerve agent).
The author of this piece has a sister who is a famous anti-Putin activist. I am interested in reading the piece but don't think this is going to more fair and balanced than the movie I suggested.
Also, I don't know how you can say "forthrightly . . that Putin attempted to have Navalny murdered." That's not proven, but is frequently spoken of as though it were, similar to the Russiagate narrative that Trump was working with Putin. Anyone who is saying that Putin tried to murder Navalny might be affiliated with or influenced by the CIA/M16 or Bellingcat (a NATO affiliated organization). Just a red flag.
I was also curious about this but have not been able to find any more info from a reliable or even semi-reliable source. So, I will keep looking. If it is as described in the movie, it's very serious. But not enough information yet.
That would probably be your response to any part in your docs. Again - share with us your favorite clip with a key fact. Just let us know the minute - and which movie.
When you say this: If it is as described in the movie, it's very serious. - what if it's not?- is it propaganda?
There's so much here to unpack but I just don't have the time. Instead, I'll focus on the part in which you actually purported to answer the question (which I've bolded). If what you say is true - that he's not insane - why do you keep saying that he'll use nuclear weapons and blow us all to hell? Taking steps that will result in your own destruction is, shall we say, not the aciton of a sane person.
P.S, While he is not seeking "world domination," he is most clearly and definitely seeking to restore the old USSR.
Where do you get your information? Check and see if they are affiliated with the Atlantic Council (PR for NATO) cause it sure sounds like it. How is he clearly and definitely seeking to restore the old USSR? The guy does not want NATO jammed up his butt. How hard is that to understand? What would you think if the guy who runs China put missiles on the US boarder in Mexico? Remember the Cuban Missile crisis? Putin has had that for years.
If we attack Russia, he's going to use nuclear weapons. I said he was not insane, but not Mr. Nice Guy. The United States has the biggest military in the world. Your idea that someone needs to be insane to use nuclear weapons is insane. Harry Truman used them twice. Was he insane?
Jayzus. There are a ton of fair and balanced articles available from any number of reputable sources explaining how it came to war in the Ukraine.
I am not going to waste my time watching some biased raw sewage put together by clever screen play writers who can tell a convincing tale about anything.
The sad thing is, Nan, that you want to peddle this infomercial crap and claim the rest of us are blinded by this thing you call the mainstream media when many people on this thread have posted links to fair and balanced articles by people who actually know what the **** they are talking about.