What does Putin want (and whatabout it)
drummerboy said:
one of your poorer posts. You're seriously claiming that everything on that list was a popular uprising fomented by the U.S.?
You don't get how regime change is done. It's not just a bunch of bandits breaking into the palace and shooting/kidnapping/exiling the leader and appointing someone else. In modern times, at least, they use social media propaganda to get people to protest so it looks like a popular uprising and then they add on with hired rebels/Nazis/Isis/terrorist gangs to push things into chaos and then they storm the palace and switch the guy. They start by imposing sanctions so everyone is miserable and then they do the social media blaming the leadership.
The US tries so many I'm surprised someone has not written a Coup 101 for Dummies book.
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:
I see you are still stalking Paul on Twitter. Some things never change.
I’ve always assumed that being read was one of the reasons people post on Twitter.
Clearly you have never experienced the wrath of the nohero monster when he follows you on twitter. The reading is not worth the writing.
PVW said:
If conspirators were really as superhumanly competent and effective as the theorists make them out to be, they wouldn't have to resort to conspiracies in the first place.
The coups don't always work and sometimes it's an embarrassing fail. Venezuela, for example, should have been a Netflix Comedy Special.
nan said:
PVW said:
If conspirators were really as superhumanly competent and effective as the theorists make them out to be, they wouldn't have to resort to conspiracies in the first place.The coups don't always work and sometimes it's an embarrassing fail. Venezuela, for example, should have been a Netflix Comedy Special.
Attempts to oust Maduro failed because he was firmly in control of the military and actually enjoyed a decent amount of popular support. Which brings us back to one of PVW's original points that we can almost never produce outcomes in other countries which weren't in the works already. We have had some success when we have good support from the armed forces of another country which is, of course, how coups work. I suppose one could imagine a world where we can trigger mass uprisings, but I always wake up before that actually works out.
paulsurovell said:
Three people? Their statements are credible but what's not credible -- with the evidence so far -- is that the bomb hit the mall and that there were 1,000 people inside. Even the article raises doubts as to whether the bomb hit the mall (probably because there's no crater) noting Russia's version "has not been independently verified" and this -->
Your desire to protect Vlad is very admirable. I wish you would do the same for Vlad's constant blaming of Ukraine for missile that didn't hit Vlad's objective. Never have seen you come to the side of the Ukrainians.
I have to remind you - the Russians have invaded and are decimating the county - do you agree with this?
The bombed out apartment complexes - was this part of the denazification or demilitarization aspect of his "operation"? Or has Ukraine been bombing their own housing units?
DaveSchmidt said:
PVW said:
... and dead ends.
We're right here, you know.
I think he wanted to say "cul-de-sac", which sounds nicer.
paulsurovell said:
That's what happened today. I blocked @nohero from my Twitter account after he told people not to trust me and refused to retract the statement.tjohn said:
The literal definition of stalker makes sense to me where the victim is the subject of unwanted attention by another person who shows up where they are and watches them.
I bet you can guess my response to this. 
nan said:
tjohn said:
You seemed to have misunderstood PVW's point that Maidan was going to happen with or without U.S. encouragement of the pro-E.U. faction. Our government is capable of a great many things, but fomenting popular uprisings isn't really on that list.
No it was not. It was not even popular.
Do you know anyone from Ukraine? Have you ever spoken to someone who was in Ukraine when it happened, or still has family there? Or did you read something which supports your sweeping generalization that "it was not even popular"?
tjohn said:
Attempts to oust Maduro failed because he was firmly in control of the military and actually enjoyed a decent amount of popular support. Which brings us back to one of PVW's original points that we can almost never produce outcomes in other countries which weren't in the works already. We have had some success when we have good support from the armed forces of another country which is, of course, how coups work. I suppose one could imagine a world where we can trigger mass uprisings, but I always wake up before that actually works out.
The leader of Bolivia had massive support but was ousted anyway. He was able to return later, but so much for your thesis.
When it comes to Maduro, the US media assured us that he did not have support, was a dictator and not the true leader of Venuzula. They imposed sanctions to inspire citizen rebellion They US announced that the hapless Juan Guaido, a guy most of Venezuela had never heard of and for whom they had not voted was now declared president, but only by the US. Guaido wore sunglasses and rode a motercycle (with a beautiful woman behind) but in the end was left standing awkwardly at the alter. I think they are keeping him in storage for the next coup.
Later Trump denied sending some inept mercenaries and hilarity ensured.
https://www.vox.com/2020/5/11/21249203/venezuela-coup-jordan-goudreau-maduro-guaido-explain
nohero said:
I think he wanted to say "cul-de-sac", which sounds nicer.
I almost did, then I thought wait, that makes the internet sound way too suburban...
Two posters who are notorious for posts which other posters respond to with comments like, "That's not what it says", "You left something out", etc. have described something I wrote on the Twitter.
Note to Paul - If you tweet "I'm going to block you if you don't respond", and then block the person, it defeats the purpose.
Do Nan and Paul really want to talk about Maduro in a Ukraine thread? If they call what the Ukrainian legislators did a "coup", what do we call what Maduro did when he disregarded the national legislature, empowered his own alternative legislative body to give himself another term as President, and enforced it all with the military?
nohero said:
nan said:
tjohn said:
You seemed to have misunderstood PVW's point that Maidan was going to happen with or without U.S. encouragement of the pro-E.U. faction. Our government is capable of a great many things, but fomenting popular uprisings isn't really on that list.
No it was not. It was not even popular.
Do you know anyone from Ukraine? Have you ever spoken to someone who was in Ukraine when it happened, or still has family there? Or did you read something which supports your sweeping generalization that "it was not even popular"?
Actually I worked with someone from Ukraine and when I tried to talk to her about it (before the invasion), all she would say was that it was "very sad." She left before the invasion started so I don't know what she thought about that.
But, my view on the lack of a consensus on Maidan comes from this poll.
Not exactly a mandate, right?
An unfalsifiable claim is simply an assertion of faith. If there's an uprising that's successful, Nan assures us that's proof it was the US. If there's an uprising that's unsuccessful, that's proof that it was the US. There's never any way to prove that it wasn't the US.
Conversely, it's never Russia. Victoria Nuland talking about who how things might unfold is somehow proof that she is causing those events, somehow convinced thousands of Ukrainians to come out onto the streets for months of protests, but Russian tanks and troops shelling Kyiv and attempting to besiege it in no way prove that Russia seeks to change the Ukrainian government.
nohero said:
Do Nan and Paul really want to talk about Maduro in a Ukraine thread? If they call what the Ukrainian legislators did a "coup", what do we call what Maduro did when he disregarded the national legislature, empowered his own alternative legislative body to give himself another term as President, and enforced it all with the military?
My reference to Maduro was just in passing, although you are wrong as usual. I'll behave now, I promise. Can I get a bathroom pass?
nan said:
nohero said:
nan said:
tjohn said:
You seemed to have misunderstood PVW's point that Maidan was going to happen with or without U.S. encouragement of the pro-E.U. faction. Our government is capable of a great many things, but fomenting popular uprisings isn't really on that list.
No it was not. It was not even popular.
Do you know anyone from Ukraine? Have you ever spoken to someone who was in Ukraine when it happened, or still has family there? Or did you read something which supports your sweeping generalization that "it was not even popular"?
Actually I worked with someone from Ukraine and when I tried to talk to her about it (before the invasion), all she would say was that it was "very sad." She left before the invasion started so I don't know what she thought about that.
But, my view on the lack of a consensus on Maidan comes from this poll.
Not exactly a mandate, right?
So your answer is, "No, you don't know or spoke to anyone who has an opinion about the 2014 Euromaidan".
You posted an article about a December 2013 poll. At that time there were protests in Kyiv against the President (and apparently diverse views about the protests). The "coup" (as you call it) was months later.
"Not exactly a mandate, right?" should say, "Not exactly relevant to the point, right?"
nan said:
nohero said:
Do Nan and Paul really want to talk about Maduro in a Ukraine thread? If they call what the Ukrainian legislators did a "coup", what do we call what Maduro did when he disregarded the national legislature, empowered his own alternative legislative body to give himself another term as President, and enforced it all with the military?
My reference to Maduro was just in passing, although you are wrong as usual. I'll behave now, I promise. Can I get a bathroom pass?
It was support for your argument. And I described the circumstances correctly.
My sister-in-law's son's wife's sister's brother-in-law works for EMC (well, Dell now) and some people in his company are from Ukraine and he says that the Maidan revolt had a great deal of popular support.
As a consequence of the Maidan protests and attendant violence , an agreement was signed on 21 February 2014 by Yanukovych and leaders of the parliamentary opposition that called for the creation of an interim unity government, constitutional reforms and early elections. Shortly after the agreement, Yanukovych and other government ministers fled the country. Parliament then removed Yanukovych from office and installed an interim government. The Revolution of Dignity was soon followed by the Russian annexation of Crimea and pro-Russian unrest in Eastern Ukraine.
It was not a coup.
tjohn said:
As a consequence of the Maidan protests and attendant violence , an agreement was signed on 21 February 2014 by Yanukovych and leaders of the parliamentary opposition that called for the creation of an interim unity government, constitutional reforms and early elections. Shortly after the agreement, Yanukovych and other government ministers fled the country. Parliament then removed Yanukovych from office and installed an interim government. The Revolution of Dignity was soon followed by the Russian annexation of Crimea and pro-Russian unrest in Eastern Ukraine.
It was not a coup.
Nice try. You left out the key detail about the snacks.
Isn't there some question that this part:
. Parliament then removed Yanukovych from office and installed an interim government.
wasn't quite constitutional?
nohero said:
Two posters who are notorious for posts which other posters respond to with comments like, "That's not what it says", "You left something out", etc. have described something I wrote on the Twitter.
Note to Paul - If you tweet "I'm going to block you if you don't respond", and then block the person, it defeats the purpose.
OK, I did not want to go there but you will not stop so the subtle approach won't work. You are worse than sebenois on twitter. You are disrespectful, annoying and rude. You just won't leave the people you stalk alone. You respond to everything they post with personal attacks like the one Paul asked you to remove. It's one thing on MOL where we all know each other, but on twitter it's more disruptive and offensive. You turn tweet into ten tweets just to try to get you out of the way. You are like a constantly buzzing mosquito mated with a Crane fly.
The only thing I don't understand is why Paul waited so long to ban you? I have incredible patience and I only lasted a few days. And I never ban anyone; I think the only other person I have banned was sbenois.
nan said:
OK, I did not want to go there but you will not stop so the subtle approach won't work. You are worse than sebenois on twitter. You are disrespectful, annoying and rude. You just won't leave the people you stalk alone. You respond to everything they post with personal attacks like the one Paul asked you to remove. It's one thing on MOL where we all know each other, but on twitter it's more disruptive and offensive. You turn tweet into ten tweets just to try to get you out of the way. You are like a constantly buzzing mosquito mated with a Crane fly.
Your political tweeting was very similar to your political MOL-ing, last time I saw it.
tjohn said:
My sister-in-law's son's wife's sister's brother-in-law works for EMC (well, Dell now) and some people in his company are from Ukraine and he says that the Maidan revolt had a great deal of popular support.
My sister works for EMC (now Dell) and she knows there are some Russians that work in her company but not any Ukrainians. Not saying they don't work there, just that my sister does not know them.
Anyway, your antidote is not scientific. The poll I posted did show support but it was not overwhelming.
nan said:
tjohn said:
My sister-in-law's son's wife's sister's brother-in-law works for EMC (well, Dell now) and some people in his company are from Ukraine and he says that the Maidan revolt had a great deal of popular support.
My sister works for EMC (now Dell) and she knows there are some Russians that work in her company but not any Ukrainians. Not saying they don't work there, just that my sister does not know them.
Anyway, your antidote is not scientific. The poll I posted did show support but it was not overwhelming.
zing!!!!!
also, I think you meant anecdote.
nan said:
nohero said:
Two posters who are notorious for posts which other posters respond to with comments like, "That's not what it says", "You left something out", etc. have described something I wrote on the Twitter.
Note to Paul - If you tweet "I'm going to block you if you don't respond", and then block the person, it defeats the purpose.
OK, I did not want to go there but you will not stop so the subtle approach won't work. You are worse than sebenois on twitter. You are disrespectful, annoying and rude. You just won't leave the people you stalk alone. You respond to everything they post with personal attacks like the one Paul asked you to remove. It's one thing on MOL where we all know each other, but on twitter it's more disruptive and offensive. You turn tweet into ten tweets just to try to get you out of the way. You are like a constantly buzzing mosquito mated with a Crane fly.
The only thing I don't understand is why Paul waited so long to ban you? I have incredible patience and I only lasted a few days. And I never ban anyone; I think the only other person I have banned was sbenois.
that is a ridiculous characterization of nohero's twitter activity.
tjohn said:
As a consequence of the Maidan protests and attendant violence , an agreement was signed on 21 February 2014 by Yanukovych and leaders of the parliamentary opposition that called for the creation of an interim unity government, constitutional reforms and early elections. Shortly after the agreement, Yanukovych and other government ministers fled the country. Parliament then removed Yanukovych from office and installed an interim government. The Revolution of Dignity was soon followed by the Russian annexation of Crimea and pro-Russian unrest in Eastern Ukraine.
It was not a coup.
How does this make it not a coup? There is nothing in what you wrote that makes it not a coup.
The first casualty of war is the truth. So, I take detailed military announcements with a grain of salt. They may or may not be true.
But I do look at the map. Territory controlled seems to be a good indicator. By that indicator, Ukraine isn't doing great, but really, given the effort expended, neither is Russia. And I do find convincing the argument that as NATO artillery enters the battle, it will be less run being a Russian invader.
And the basic truth is that Russia launched a brutal invasion of choice into Ukraine because Putin could not accept an wholly independent EU-aligned Ukraine. Putin apparently thought his military would achieve the preliminary objectives in a week or two and is now fighting like a nasty cornered rat.