What does Putin want (and whatabout it)
nan said:
From what I've read and watched in the Oliver Stone movies, Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe. And that was before the invasion. I googled that and the first link I found concurs.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/poorest-countries-in-europe
They have many closed industries and they pay a lot for energy and have had a "Carrying coals to Newcastle" problem. They have been famous for coal, but the industry is a mess and they ended up importing it sometimes from Pennsylvania.
From the the link:
Some of Ukraine's continuing issues contributing to its poverty are government corruption, Russian aggression (specifically Russia's illegal seizure of Crimea in 2014), and weak infrastructure.
nan said:
nohero said:
As you can read, others here are well aware of what the film claims.
Consider becoming aware of investigations of its "fact" claims, and also what genuine economic statistics indicate.
Ok, let me know what you find out. Does Ukraine in fact have a flourishing aviation, automotive, and ship building industry? Are they using their own coal from the Dombas instead of paying to have it shipped in from Pensylvannia? Was Hunter Biden not on the board of Burisma? Are they actually exporting many products?
I agree there is some debate about genuine economic statistics. For example, I know the US is considered the richest country in the world, and yet we have no national heealthcare, a crumbling infrastructure (have you tried taking a train to NYC lately?), a whole generation stuck in college debt, unafordable housing and many, many homeless and hungry people. But no problem getting billions to send to Ukraine to get us even closer to Armageddon.
Not surprised Biden's favoriability is around 38% and we will probably have an even worse version of Trump as our next president, if we are even around to have a next president.
I'm sure that their aviation, automotive and ship building industries are flourishing at the moment. And their export business is exploding right now. In fact, they are exporting large chunks of their population. Their import business is also doing well. They are importing Russian tanks and missiles at an incredible rate.
But enough about the vibrant economy of Ukraine! What were you saying about college debt?
nan said:
jamie said:
Decent review:
First thing to note before watching this "documentary" is that the filmmaker is from Eastern Ukraine, which explains his pro-Russian ideology. The interviews conducted in the film are of Putin and Yanukovich; no other leaders or Presidents have been interviewed or asked any questions on their opinion or thoughts. As you watch the film, you will notice that every account of events is very one-sided and fails to portray all the facts, conveniently leaving out parts of the story that are crucial to the understanding of the unfolding of Ukraine's history. The constant naming of Ukrainians as Nazis along with side-by-side images of Ukrainian political leaders with Nazi leaders and their demonstrations is a propaganda tool that is used throughout the film to paint nationalistic Ukrainians as terrorists and anti-Semitists. This film is meant to recount Ukraine's history but leaves out every positive fact and victory as well as "forgetting" about the injustices committed against the Ukrainian people such as Holodomor, a mass starvation effort carried out by Stalin and the USSR during which millions of Ukrainians died. Overall, this is an offensive and extremely biased account of Ukraine and should only be watched to get a better understanding of the tools Russia and pro-Russians use in their propaganda.
---------------
I have found that those who love this "doc" are those who have a anti-MSM mantra online.
Jamie - The mainstream media give ONE view of the Ukraine situation 24/7. You can turn on CNN/MSNBC/NPR/PPS/FOX/ and many others and get ONE view of Ukraine. You never complain about their lack of contrasting views. There is even a movie on Netflix about Ukraine with a similar sounding name to Ukraine on Fire (probably on purpose) which only gives the CIA/propaganda view and I remember you were fine with that one.
So everyone already knows one side of the story. Oliver Stone makes a movie about another side to the story and all you want is for the other very loud and easily found views to take over half of that too.
Because you don't want any other side told. You just want to believe the simplistic view that Putin is a mad dictator who woke up one day and did not get enough coffee and decided to invade his neighbor and now has plans to invade all the neighbors until he is king of the world. That's what has been told to you over and over for years, without any other side, and you can't see past that.
since you (presumably) don't watch any of the mainstream media, how are you so sure of what they present?
because from this end, what you are presenting is a silly caricature. the fact that you believe it so strongly is a questionable choice on your part.
drummerboy said:
since you (presumably) don't watch any of the mainstream media, how are you so sure of what they present?
because from this end, what you are presenting is a silly caricature. the fact that you believe it so strongly is a questionable choice on your part.
I watched mainstream media last week and it was the same as when I used to watch. There are occasional voices going a few steps to the right or left but the dominant message is support for the military industrial complex and and Russia as the crazy evil enemy attacking without any reason. Anyone who says otherwise will not be on for long. YouTube/substack is filled with people who used to be on mainstream media but then ran afoul of the censors. You will never hear a conversation like this:
Russia Ukraine War is Being Used to Justify Oil and Gas Expansion on Tribal Lands
nan said:
There are occasional voices going a few steps to the right or left but the dominant message is support for the military industrial complex and and Russia as the crazy evil enemy attacking without any reason.
I haven’t heard anyone anywhere say there was no reason.
sbenois said:
I'm sure that their aviation, automotive and ship building industries are flourishing at the moment. And their export business is exploding right now. In fact, they are exporting large chunks of their population. Their import business is also doing well. They are importing Russian tanks and missiles at an incredible rate.
But enough about the vibrant economy of Ukraine! What were you saying about college debt?
They were not flourishing before the invasion. I don't support the invasion, but unless we see the big picture we will not be able to diplomatically move away from WWIII. Lets keep our eye on the prize: No nuclear war.
And the problems there can be a cautionary tale for the people here. When there are lots of people with little hope for the future they are more likely to be attracted to far-right ideologies.
DaveSchmidt said:
I haven’t heard anyone anywhere say there was no reason.
The term used here on MOL was "unprovoked" which means no reason.
STANV said:
From the the link:
Some of Ukraine's continuing issues contributing to its poverty are government corruption, Russian aggression (specifically Russia's illegal seizure of Crimea in 2014), and weak infrastructure.
Government corruption like when Joe Biden is running your country and his son gets on the Burisma board? Also, might be technically illegal, but Russia did not really seize Crimea as much as the people there voted by a huge margin to go back to Russia. They did not want to end up like the people in the Donbas.
We can all relate to the problems with weak infrastructure. Have you tried to take the train to New York City recently? Be nice if that 13 billion that just went to Ukraine could be used here. Wish Democrats and Republicans could unite on our infrastructure instead of war.
nan said:
The term used here on MOL was "unprovoked" which means no reason.
It doesn’t mean that at all. (Also, you were talking about MSM, not MOL.)
jamie said:
nan - let's take some current news - who is shelling Volnovakha?
Reuters is reporting the Russia has destroyed this town.
Putin is reporting that Ukraine shelled a hospital in Volnovakha:
https://ria.ru/20220313/volnovakha-1777894310.html
Now - which one do you believe? Which one should we in the US be reading about? And should we even care?
nan this is the 3rd time posting this / please respond.
nan said:
sbenois said:
I'm sure that their aviation, automotive and ship building industries are flourishing at the moment. And their export business is exploding right now. In fact, they are exporting large chunks of their population. Their import business is also doing well. They are importing Russian tanks and missiles at an incredible rate.
But enough about the vibrant economy of Ukraine! What were you saying about college debt?
They were not flourishing before the invasion. I don't support the invasion, but unless we see the big picture we will not be able to diplomatically move away from WWIII. Lets keep our eye on the prize: No nuclear war.
And the problems there can be a cautionary tale for the people here. When there are lots of people with little hope for the future they are more likely to be attracted to far-right ideologies.
Let's keep an eye on your prize. Protect Russia. Repeat ****.
nan said:
DaveSchmidt said:
I haven’t heard anyone anywhere say there was no reason.
The term used here on MOL was "unprovoked" which means no reason.
The Russian invasion was unprovoked.
"Unprovoked" is not the same as "no reason". It just means that you don't blame the victim of the attack.
nan said:
nohero said:
As you can read, others here are well aware of what the film claims.
Consider becoming aware of investigations of its "fact" claims, and also what genuine economic statistics indicate.
Ok, let me know what you find out. Does Ukraine in fact have a flourishing aviation, automotive, and ship building industry? Are they using their own coal from the Dombas instead of paying to have it shipped in from Pensylvannia? Was Hunter Biden not on the board of Burisma? Are they actually exporting many products?
Less than a minute on the Google -
Shipbuilders of Kherson and Nikolaev shipyards earned UAH 440 million in 2021 » Metallurgprom
They're not going to have as good a year in 2022 -
Russian Forces Advance on Mykolaiv in Bid for Ukraine's Coast - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
[Edited to add] I'll let you check to find out about why Ukraine can't rely on coal from the Donbass right now. The answer is pretty simple.
DaveSchmidt said:
It doesn’t mean that at all. (Also, you were talking about MSM, not MOL.)
It does mean that in the context it was used. MOL is mostly a reflection of MSM. The general view is that Putin is a power hungry madman who wants to invade Ukraine and then take over more countries to restore the former USSR. This country does not bother him but they are fearful and just need protection because he's after them. He had previously stormed into Crimea and forced the people there to become part of Russia. His comments about NATO and Nazis are just dumb excuses. NATO is benign and Ukraine, a democratic free country should be able to join NATO if they want. There are some Nazis in Ukraine but that is a minor problem just like here. The 2014 coup was an organic rebellion organized and run by the people. There is more but that's the main deal.
Basically, Putin's reasonable demands are never seen in any context that makes sense so it's easy to paint him as a crazy, power hungry dictator who invaded unprovoked. Other viewpoints are rarely given. There might be the occasional slip but most of the time that's the narrative with no opposing view.
nan said:
DaveSchmidt said:
It doesn’t mean that at all. (Also, you were talking about MSM, not MOL.)
It does mean that in the context it was used. MOL is mostly a reflection of MSM. The general view is that Putin is a power hungry madman who wants to invade Ukraine and then take over more countries to restore the former USSR. This country does not bother him but they are fearful and just need protection because he's after them. He had previously stormed into Crimea and forced the people there to become part of Russia. His comments about NATO and Nazis are just dumb excuses. NATO is benign and Ukraine, a democratic free country should be able to join NATO if they want. There are some Nazis in Ukraine but that is a minor problem just like here. The 2014 coup was an organic rebellion organized and run by the people. There is more but that's the main deal.
Basically, Putin's reasonable demands are never seen in any context that makes sense so it's easy to paint him as a crazy, power hungry dictator who invaded unprovoked. Other viewpoints are rarely given. There might be the occasional slip but most of the time that's the narrative with no opposing view.
He's a good man. Clearly.
jamie said:
nan this is the 3rd time posting this / please respond.
I don't know who is shelling that town/hospital. I'm not a war reporter stationed in Ukraine. I would not trust either source. Do you know what they mean when they say the "Fog of War?" I will read accounts about it later and either make a conclusion or continue to say, "I don't know."
nohero said:
Less than a minute on the Google -
Shipbuilders of Kherson and Nikolaev shipyards earned UAH 440 million in 2021 » Metallurgprom
They're not going to have as good a year in 2022 -
Russian Forces Advance on Mykolaiv in Bid for Ukraine's Coast - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
[Edited to add] I'll let you check to find out about why Ukraine can't rely on coal from the Donbass right now. The answer is pretty simple.
The shipbuilding came after the movie was made. Good for them. Of course the war stopped everything. Duh! War is horrible and tragic, especially in this case when it most likely could have been avoided.
The war in the Donbas prior to the invasion was Ukraine attacking it's own citizens (with American weapons). Where was the sympathy for those victims? The media called them "Russian Separatists" instead of Ukrainians. But now when Putin can be said to kill them they are once again Ukrainians.
It was April 2014 when Russian troops crossed the border into Ukraine and linked up with the separatists, using Russian made weapons to kill Ukrainian citizens.
All this bullsiht, back and forth about trying to rationalize Putin’s full scale scorch earth Armageddon on the Ukrainian people who want nothing to do with Russia, communism or you far left radical nut jobs!! WTF !
nan said:
jamie said:
nan this is the 3rd time posting this / please respond.
I don't know who is shelling that town/hospital. I'm not a war reporter stationed in Ukraine. I would not trust either source. Do you know what they mean when they say the "Fog of War?" I will read accounts about it later and either make a conclusion or continue to say, "I don't know."
ah ok., So you're giving legitimacy to Putin's media machine to some degree. Would you consider his actions "war" or a legit special military operation?
I guess since you can't decide - Reuters and RIA pretty much equal in you opinion? I guess you need ten other sources for verification purposes. Perhaps you can point us to the ones we should be looking at.
Also, can you point to any of your past post regarding free press and freedom to protest in Russia?
nan said:
The war in the Donbas prior to the invasion was Ukraine attacking it's own citizens (with American weapons). Where was the sympathy for those victims? The media called them "Russian Separatists" instead of Ukrainians. But now when Putin can be said to kill them they are once again Ukrainians.
And there was zero Russian provocation in the Donbass region? No Russian culpability? And please use a source other then Stone's "movie".
Jaytee said:
It was April 2014 when Russian troops crossed the border into Ukraine and linked up with the separatists, using Russian made weapons to kill Ukrainian citizens.
All this bullsiht, back and forth about trying to rationalize Putin’s full scale scorch earth Armageddon on the Ukrainian people who want nothing to do with Russia, communism or you far left radical nut jobs!! WTF !
nan said:
It does mean that in the context it was used. MOL is mostly a reflection of MSM. The general view is that Putin is a power hungry madman who wants to invade Ukraine and then take over more countries to restore the former USSR. This country does not bother him but they are fearful and just need protection because he's after them. He had previously stormed into Crimea and forced the people there to become part of Russia. His comments about NATO and Nazis are just dumb excuses. NATO is benign and Ukraine, a democratic free country should be able to join NATO if they want. There are some Nazis in Ukraine but that is a minor problem just like here. The 2014 coup was an organic rebellion organized and run by the people. There is more but that's the main deal.
Basically, Putin's reasonable demands are never seen in any context that makes sense so it's easy to paint him as a crazy, power hungry dictator who invaded unprovoked. Other viewpoints are rarely given. There might be the occasional slip but most of the time that's the narrative with no opposing view.
For the most part - I've been using what has been reported via the Putin media model. He's the one using Nazis as an excuse the his actions. It's even in the action - denazification. He has hardly mentioned NATO in his reporting and excuse for this operation. He want to kills the nazis and wipe out the military complex in Ukraine. That's what he's actually reporting.
He said he would target civilians - they are.
He said he wasn't using young conscripts - he is.
He's now jailing people for up to 15 years for using he word war or invasion.
And yet - you have zero thoughts on any of this.
The Russian people in the end are the ones who will be completely isolated. If you don't think the was Putin's goal - then I hope you do some more reading. Vlad is ecstatic with the prospect.
jamie said:
nan said:
It does mean that in the context it was used. MOL is mostly a reflection of MSM. The general view is that Putin is a power hungry madman who wants to invade Ukraine and then take over more countries to restore the former USSR. This country does not bother him but they are fearful and just need protection because he's after them. He had previously stormed into Crimea and forced the people there to become part of Russia. His comments about NATO and Nazis are just dumb excuses. NATO is benign and Ukraine, a democratic free country should be able to join NATO if they want. There are some Nazis in Ukraine but that is a minor problem just like here. The 2014 coup was an organic rebellion organized and run by the people. There is more but that's the main deal.
Basically, Putin's reasonable demands are never seen in any context that makes sense so it's easy to paint him as a crazy, power hungry dictator who invaded unprovoked. Other viewpoints are rarely given. There might be the occasional slip but most of the time that's the narrative with no opposing view.
For the most part - I've been using what has been reported via the Putin media model. He's the one using Nazis as an excuse the his actions. It's even in the action - denazification. He has hardly mentioned NATO in his reporting and excuse for this operation. He want to kills the nazis and wipe out the military complex in Ukraine. That's what he's actually reporting.
He said he would target civilians - they are.
He said he wasn't using young conscripts - he is.
He's now jailing people for up to 15 years for using he word war or invasion.
And yet - you have zero thoughts on any of this.
The Russian people in the end are the ones who will be completely isolated. If you don't think the was Putin's goal - then I hope you do some more reading. Vlad is ecstatic with the prospect.
Interesting huh? War crimes galore and it's not a problem. Arresting a Mayor and installing a puppet....no problem. Uncle Vladi is just misunderstood. Besides, we need to discuss the poor quality of NJ Roads first.
nan said:
DaveSchmidt said:
I haven’t heard anyone anywhere say there was no reason.
The term used here on MOL was "unprovoked" which means no reason.
er, no. that's not what that means.
nan said:
nohero said:
Less than a minute on the Google -
Shipbuilders of Kherson and Nikolaev shipyards earned UAH 440 million in 2021 » Metallurgprom
They're not going to have as good a year in 2022 -
Russian Forces Advance on Mykolaiv in Bid for Ukraine's Coast - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
[Edited to add] I'll let you check to find out about why Ukraine can't rely on coal from the Donbass right now. The answer is pretty simple.
The shipbuilding came after the movie was made. ...
You have an unshakeable faith that evidence cannot dislodge.
nan said:
The shipbuilding came after the movie was made. Good for them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipbuilding_in_Ukraine
SMDH
Which is kind of why I think we need to find some way to end this war.