What does Putin want (and whatabout it)

nan said:

Do you understand the concept of Manufactured Consent?   Viewers have been primed for years with the Russiagate Hoax.  They have a cardboard Disney villain version of Putin tattooed on their brains.  Of course they are going to listen to this and react as they don't to other just as horrible wars.  When the US invades they go to sleep.  When Putin invades, they put giant Ukrainian flags on their lawns and brag about paying higher gas prices on Facebook. 

Putin is acting, not like a "cardboard Disney villain", but like one of those stock Russian leader characters in spy fiction.

Nobody wants nuclear war. Most of us understand that a leader like Putin, who relies on his nuclear threat in order to wreck "conventional" death and destruction, is the very real (not cardboard) villain in this piece.


nan said:

Morganna said:

@terp , I don't agree with this. I think you should consider that if a topic is aired and there is little response from the viewers, the media moves on. If the audience responds with interest, positive or negative the media will keep feeding it.

As an example, best one I could think of for the moment, Rachel Maddow aired a couple of shows over the years that went in depth on the issue of abortion. It must have fallen flat. No future guests, no chatter in twitter world I guess. I'm not making a point that it should have been explored just suggesting to you that the news is stoked by the viewers.

I realize this could be a chicken or the egg argument but just consider it. The public gets what it is asking for, They tell us, but we choose what we want to hear or we grab the remote.

Do you understand the concept of Manufactured Consent?   Viewers have been primed for years with the Russiagate Hoax.  They have a cardboard Disney villain version of Putin tattooed on their brains.  Of course they are going to listen to this and react as they don't to other just as horrible wars.  When the US invades they go to sleep.  When Putin invades, they put giant Ukrainian flags on their lawns and brag about paying higher gas prices on Facebook. 

Do you understand the concept of Actual Reality?   That fine gentleman Putin invaded a country, arrested nearly 20,000 peaceful protesters, bombed residential neighborhoods, committed scores of war crimes, clamped down on the Russian media and internet and dislocated over 2 million people.  He has basically done everything that you and your fellow Putin apologists make an MOL career out of protesting.   

And yet, no **** problem when Uncle Vladi does it.  So please spare us your outrage over people with Ukrainian flags on their FB pages or their willingness to pay more for gas.   You've lost the right to be outraged.  I hope the mirrors in Florida allow you to look at yourself in them.


I think I'll just post a link to this article every new page.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/stephen-kotkin-putin-russia-ukraine-stalin

Thanks to Drummerboy for uncovering this.

In brief, the argument is that we could have disbanded NATO and Russia could very well be behaving as they are today.


nan said:

Do you understand the concept of Manufactured Consent?   Viewers have been primed for years with the Russiagate Hoax.  They have a cardboard Disney villain version of Putin tattooed on their brains.  Of course they are going to listen to this and react as they don't to other just as horrible wars.  When the US invades they go to sleep.  When Putin invades, they put giant Ukrainian flags on their lawns and brag about paying higher gas prices on Facebook. 

A less aggressive response could have opened with "I believe that viewers have  Manufactured Consent" followed by your point of view that "viewers have been primed for years with the Russiagate Hoax"  instead of  "Do you understand the concept of Manufactured Consent?" One expresses your belief, the other suggests the person is a dunce who probably can not grasp your sophisticated thoughts on world domination.

Then again you once referred to me as a Rockefeller Republican, to which at a complete loss of words I can only reply, "Go Vegan."


From the New Yorker interview with Stephen Kotkin.

"

Way before nato existed—in the nineteenth century—Russia looked like this: it had an autocrat. It had repression. It had militarism. It had suspicion of foreigners and the West. This is a Russia that we know, and it’s not a Russia that arrived yesterday or in the nineteen-nineties. It’s not a response to the actions of the West. There are internal processes in Russia that account for where we are today.


tjohn said:

From the New Yorker interview with Stephen Kotkin.

"

Way before nato existed—in the nineteenth century—Russia looked like this: it had an autocrat. It had repression. It had militarism. It had suspicion of foreigners and the West. This is a Russia that we know, and it’s not a Russia that arrived yesterday or in the nineteen-nineties. It’s not a response to the actions of the West. There are internal processes in Russia that account for where we are today.

It's not only birds that don't exist. Russia doesn't exist. Only America exists. All countries, and all people, are simply shadows cast on the wall by America. Though it's unclear if America is the source of the light or the blocker of that light. Either way, it's the only real thing in the universe.


nohero said:

Putin is acting, not like a "cardboard Disney villain", but like one of those stock Russian leader characters in spy fiction.

Nobody wants nuclear war. Most of us understand that a leader like Putin, who relies on his nuclear threat in order to wreck "conventional" death and destruction, is the very real (not cardboard) villain in this piece.

You are just proving my point with your one-sided Putin is all evil and nothing put Putin caused this.  There is no nuance or larger picture of how the US has been using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia and how there are Nazis in the Ukrainian military and how the US over threw the democratically elected government in 2014 and put in a US puppet and encouraged attacks in the Donbas using US weapons and causing 14,000 deaths (which no one on MOL gave a rat's a** about).  

Putin should not have invaded but this war was predictable and preventable and the US has at least some blame.  Until this is acknowledged we will continue on the path to nuclear war with people like you cheering it on. 

At least tell me you don't support a no fly zone yet. 


Morganna said:

A less aggressive response could have opened with "I believe that viewers have  Manufactured Consent" followed by your point of view that "viewers have been primed for years with the Russiagate Hoax"  instead of  "Do you understand the concept of Manufactured Consent?" One expresses your belief, the other suggests the person is a dunce who probably can not grasp your sophisticated thoughts on world domination.

Then again you once referred to me as a Rockefeller Republican, to which at a complete loss of words I can only reply, "Go Vegan."

I'm not going vegan, and I don't remember referring to you as a Rockefeller Republican. I do remember recently you were saying that Ukraine should be put into NATO which IS a dunce's view.  This is not like topics we have discussed before because this IS about WWIII and we will be having nuclear war and it will be the Democrats who who lead the way.  They were so terrified of Trump starting it but, ironically, look who turns out to be the biggest war mongers of all. 


tjohn said:

I think I'll just post a link to this article every new page.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/stephen-kotkin-putin-russia-ukraine-stalin

Thanks to Drummerboy for uncovering this.

In brief, the argument is that we could have disbanded NATO and Russia could very well be behaving as they are today.

Stephen Kotkin, darling of the Hoover Institute, thinks NATO is benign and Russia is hell-bent on destroying and enriching itself for no apparent reason.  What a surprise. 


nan said:

nohero said:

Putin is acting, not like a "cardboard Disney villain", but like one of those stock Russian leader characters in spy fiction.

Nobody wants nuclear war. Most of us understand that a leader like Putin, who relies on his nuclear threat in order to wreck "conventional" death and destruction, is the very real (not cardboard) villain in this piece.

You are just proving my point with your one-sided Putin is all evil and nothing put Putin caused this.  There is no nuance or larger picture of how the US has been using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia and how there are Nazis in the Ukrainian military and how the US over threw the democratically elected government in 2014 and put in a US puppet and encouraged attacks in the Donbas using US weapons and causing 14,000 deaths (which no one on MOL gave a rat's a** about).  

Putin should not have invaded but this war was predictable and preventable and the US has at least some blame.  Until this is acknowledged we will continue on the path to nuclear war with people like you cheering it on. 

At least tell me you don't support a no fly zone yet. 

holy hell

and you have the gall to tell the rest of us that we're misinformed?


tjohn said:

From the New Yorker interview with Stephen Kotkin.

"

Way before nato existed—in the nineteenth century—Russia looked like this: it had an autocrat. It had repression. It had militarism. It had suspicion of foreigners and the West. This is a Russia that we know, and it’s not a Russia that arrived yesterday or in the nineteen-nineties. It’s not a response to the actions of the West. There are internal processes in Russia that account for where we are today.

Seriously?  You think this simplistic view makes sense?  It's like a 1970s junior high filmstrip presentation.  19th century Russia explains Putin?  Well then what does that say about us--we raped and tortured and killed the Native Americans and stole their land.  But now we are the nice guys spreading democracy around the world. It's only in Russia that they stayed bad.  


nan said:

tjohn said:

From the New Yorker interview with Stephen Kotkin.

"

Way before nato existed—in the nineteenth century—Russia looked like this: it had an autocrat. It had repression. It had militarism. It had suspicion of foreigners and the West. This is a Russia that we know, and it’s not a Russia that arrived yesterday or in the nineteen-nineties. It’s not a response to the actions of the West. There are internal processes in Russia that account for where we are today.

Seriously?  You think this simplistic view makes sense?  It's like a 1970s junior high filmstrip presentation.  19th century Russia explains Putin?  Well then what does that say about us--we raped and tortured and killed the Native Americans and stole their land.  But now we are the nice guys spreading democracy around the world. It's only in Russia that they stayed bad.  

We have not escaped our past.  Trumpism serves as a sharp reminder that there are a lot of Americans who would be happy for a return to the 50's or even earlier.

The Ukrainian government was not overthrown by a U.S. sponsored coup in 2014.  That was the Maidan uprising and it was a result of the ever present pro-Russia / pro-EU split in Ukraine although the pro-Russia faction is much smaller now thanks to butcher Putin.

The people killed in the Donbas fighting were generally killed with Russian and Ukrainian weapons.  Not U.S. weapons.

If the Ukrainian government was a puppet government, then it would have dissolved in a stiff breeze as did the Afghan government when we pulled out.


nan said:

nohero said:

Putin is acting, not like a "cardboard Disney villain", but like one of those stock Russian leader characters in spy fiction.

Nobody wants nuclear war. Most of us understand that a leader like Putin, who relies on his nuclear threat in order to wreck "conventional" death and destruction, is the very real (not cardboard) villain in this piece.

You are just proving my point with your one-sided Putin is all evil and nothing put Putin caused this.  There is no nuance or larger picture of how the US has been using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia and how there are Nazis in the Ukrainian military and how the US over threw the democratically elected government in 2014 and put in a US puppet and encouraged attacks in the Donbas using US weapons and causing 14,000 deaths (which no one on MOL gave a rat's a** about).  

Putin should not have invaded but this war was predictable and preventable and the US has at least some blame.  Until this is acknowledged we will continue on the path to nuclear war with people like you cheering it on. 

At least tell me you don't support a no fly zone yet. 

Seriously, you folks are down the rabbit hole of misleading hate-mongering that's masquerading as "progressive" and "peace activism".


tjohn said:

We have not escaped our past.  Trumpism serves as a sharp reminder that there are a lot of Americans who would be happy for a return to the 50's or even earlier.

The Ukrainian government was not overthrown by a U.S. sponsored coup in 2014.  That was the Maidan uprising and it was a result of the ever present pro-Russia / pro-EU split in Ukraine although the pro-Russia faction is much smaller now thanks to butcher Putin.

The people killed in the Donbas fighting were generally killed with Russian and Ukrainian weapons.  Not U.S. weapons.

If the Ukrainian government was a puppet government, then it would have dissolved in a stiff breeze as did the Afghan government when we pulled out.

I view Trump as a symptom of late stage Capitalism, and I understand why people would want to go back to the 1950s, a rare time in history when the middle class had some power and benefits. 

The 2014 US backed overthrow of the Ukrainian government was one of the most obvious coups in history. We even have a recording of the phone call where they pick the next leader.

After the coup,  which emboldened and financed the Nazi element, the people of Crimea could not wait to rejoin Russia.  There was no Russian invasion.  They were terrified and after seeing what happened in Donbass they  made the right choice.  

The US funded the Azov Battalion so there were American weapons used in the Donbas.  Here is an 2018 article that discusses the funding:  https://therealnews.com/max-blumenthal-us-is-arming-neo-nazis-in-ukraine

This is all covered well in the Oliver Stone movie which is probably going to become unavailable soon (they keep increasing the warnings and putting up gates) so watch it now:


nan said:

I view Trump as a symptom of late stage Capitalism, and I understand why people would want to go back to the 1950s, a rare time in history when the middle class had some power and benefits. 

The 2014 US backed overthrow of the Ukrainian government was one of the most obvious coups in history. We even have a recording of the phone call where they pick the next leader.

After the coup,  which emboldened and financed the Nazi element, the people of Crimea could not wait to rejoin Russia.  There was no Russian invasion.  They were terrified and after seeing what happened in Donbass they  made the right choice.  

This is all covered well in the Oliver Stone movie which is probably going to become unavailable soon (they keep increasing the warnings and putting up gates) so watch it now:

As tjohn pointed out, we have a very recent example of what it looks like when a government imposed by a foreign power with no local support faces opposition.

I'm having trouble reconciling the actions we've seen Ukraine take in recent years - standing up to Trump's extortion, mounting a dogged and effective resistance to Russian military invasion -- with the idea that 2014 was an American coup that Ukrainians meekly accepted.


nan said:

I view Trump as a symptom of late stage Capitalism, and I understand why people would want to go back to the 1950s, a rare time in history when the middle class had some power and benefits. 

The 2014 US backed overthrow of the Ukrainian government was one of the most obvious coups in history. We even have a recording of the phone call where they pick the next leader.


Is that Olivia Benson testifying about the U.S. backed overthrow of the Ukraine government Season 3 episode 31? Wow Law & Order SVU politically correct once again.


Morganna said:

Is that Olivia Benson testifying about the U.S. backed overthrow of the Ukraine government Season 3 episode 31? Wow Law & Order SVU politically correct once again.

Maybe you need to listen without visuals until you can separate fantasy and reality.  Lets be clear: the US government, with Joe Biden in charge, overthrew the government of Ukraine in 2014 and picked the next president.  This is a key part of understanding what is going on now. 


nan said:

Morganna said:

Is that Olivia Benson testifying about the U.S. backed overthrow of the Ukraine government Season 3 episode 31? Wow Law & Order SVU politically correct once again.

Maybe you need to listen without visuals until you can separate fantasy and reality.  Lets be clear: the US government, with Joe Biden in charge, overthrew the government of Ukraine in 2014 and picked the next president.  This is a key part of understanding what is going on now. 

that recording, as has been pointed out numerous times (terp was the last to post it just a few days ago) proves nothing at all.

a mid-level government functionary expressing a preference for a candidate is not proof of a coup. And I'm embarrassed that I have to say that among adults.

the fact that you find this clip so damning is further indication that your claim of a coup is baseless. 

your level of what constitutes evidence is extremely, extremely low, as has been established many times on MOL.


nan said:

Maybe you need to listen without visuals until you can separate fantasy and reality.  Lets be clear: the US government, with Joe Biden in charge, overthrew the government of Ukraine in 2014 and picked the next president.  This is a key part of understanding what is going on now. 

That part is the fantasy, apparently based on some hatred of Ukrainians - for not liking Putin or for some similar sin. 


nohero said:

nan said:

nohero said:

Putin is acting, not like a "cardboard Disney villain", but like one of those stock Russian leader characters in spy fiction.

Nobody wants nuclear war. Most of us understand that a leader like Putin, who relies on his nuclear threat in order to wreck "conventional" death and destruction, is the very real (not cardboard) villain in this piece.

You are just proving my point with your one-sided Putin is all evil and nothing put Putin caused this.  There is no nuance or larger picture of how the US has been using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia and how there are Nazis in the Ukrainian military and how the US over threw the democratically elected government in 2014 and put in a US puppet and encouraged attacks in the Donbas using US weapons and causing 14,000 deaths (which no one on MOL gave a rat's a** about).  

Putin should not have invaded but this war was predictable and preventable and the US has at least some blame.  Until this is acknowledged we will continue on the path to nuclear war with people like you cheering it on. 

At least tell me you don't support a no fly zone yet. 

Seriously, you folks are down the rabbit hole of misleading hate-mongering that's masquerading as "progressive" and "peace activism".

ugh - some are just plain blind to the Stone/Vlad propaganda


From my friend in Ukraine - he's currently in Lviv now:

History will show how this war will end.  At least, masks are finally off and entire planet knows who is who. After this everyone knows that Ukraine is not Russia.


Can nan and paul at least comment on the Anti-press and Anti- Protest actions that Putin put in place?  TIA

Feel free to post Dore and Greenwald's views on this also!


nan said:

Maybe you need to listen without visuals until you can separate fantasy and reality.  Lets be clear: the US government, with Joe Biden in charge, overthrew the government of Ukraine in 2014 and picked the next president.  This is a key part of understanding what is going on now. 

Why did he lose the last election?


drummerboy said:

that recording, as has been pointed out numerous times (terp was the last to post it just a few days ago) proves nothing at all.

a mid-level government functionary expressing a preference for a candidate is not proof of a coup. And I'm embarrassed that I have to say that among adults.

the fact that you find this clip so damning is further indication that your claim of a coup is baseless. 

your level of what constitutes evidence is extremely, extremely low, as has been established many times on MOL.

They are not discussing a preference.  They are arranging a coup with sign offs obtained.  It's very clear.  That you can't see this is might be deliberate blindness, embarrassing denial, or some other defect.  There is lots of other evidence.  Watch the movie Ukraine on Fire and see them hanging out with protesters and all the other clues.  

The Nuland conversation was 24 days before "Yatz" was installed as discussed on February 26th, 2014. The World Socialists used the term "gangsterism" to describe Nuland and Co. and describe how this fulfills the neocon desire for direct confrontation with Russia.  

Leaked phone call on Ukraine lays bare Washington’s gangsterism

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/10/pers-f10.html

highlight:

"

The real political significance of the phone conversation between Nuland and Pyatt is left largely in the shade. This is no accident, as the call provides a devastating exposure of the criminal and imperialist character of US policy in Ukraine and debunks the phony “democratic” pretensions of the Obama administration.

In his State of the Union speech last month, Obama declared: “In Ukraine, we stand for the principle that all people have the right to express themselves freely and peacefully, and to have a say in their country’s future.”

What the tape makes clear, however, is that Washington is employing methods of international gangsterism, including violence, to effect a political coup aimed at installing a regime that is fully subordinate to US geo-strategic interests. This operation has no more to do with democracy than the US-orchestrated coups in countries like Chile and Argentina some 40 years ago.

The precise goal of US efforts is to shift political power into the hands of a collection of Western-aligned Ukrainian oligarchs who enriched themselves off of the private appropriation—theft—of state property carried out as part of the Stalinist bureaucracy’s dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991. In doing so, it aims to turn Ukraine into a US imperialist beachhead on the very border of Russia, whose territory it also wants to divide and subjugate to neocolonial status as part of its drive to assert American hegemony throughout the strategic landmass of Eurasia.

The Nuland-Pyatt conversation is concerned with the nuts and bolts of this venture. They involve the whipping up of anti-Russian Ukrainian nationalism and aid to far-right political forces that serve as a battering ram against the government of President Viktor Yanukovych. The Ukraine president’s turn toward a deal with Russia rather than integration into the European Union was the spark for the current campaign for regime-change.

Nuland makes clear that behind the scenes, Washington is dictating which leaders of the opposition—referred to as “the big three”—should enter the government to swing it behind Washington and what role the others will play. Arseniy Yatsenyuk of the Fatherland Party, who served as minister of economy and minister of foreign affairs in the ill-fated government brought to power by the so-called Orange Revolution orchestrated by Washington in 2004, is identified by the assistant secretary of state as “the guy who’s got the economic experience, the governing experience.”

Nuland proposes that two other prominent right-wing leaders of the anti-Yanukovych protests—ex-boxer Vitali Klitschko, the chief of the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reforms, or Udar (an acronym that means “punch”), and Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of the neo-fascist Svoboda party—remain “on the outside,” continuing to whip up right-wing mobs. Yatsenyuk, she adds, “needs to be talking to them four times a week.”

She and the ambassador refer to two of these figures as “Yats” and “Klitsch,” the kind of names normally reserved for poodles.

During her latest visit to Kiev, which coincided with the leaking of the phone call, Nuland met and posed publicly with the three opposition leaders mentioned in the taped conversation—“Yats,” “Klitsch” and the man who is playing the decisive role in the organization of the violent protests in Maidan Square, Svoboda leader Tyahnybok.

Tyahnybok was reportedly banned last year from entering the US because of rabidly anti-Semitic speeches praising his followers for striking fear in “the Moscow-Jewish mafia ruling Ukraine,” and hailing World War II-era Ukrainian fascists for fighting Russians, Germans “kikes and other scum.” This, however, did not give Nuland pause.

During her previous visit to Ukraine in December 2013, Nuland, the grand-daughter of Jewish immigrants who fled to America to escape pogroms in Tsarist Russia, provided a uniquely repellent spectacle, handing out cookies in Maidan square to Svoboda thugs who venerate the mass murderers of Hitler’s SS.

"


2.5 million refugees.  Cities destroyed.   

Nan remains silent.


ridski said:

Why did he lose the last election?

You mean "Yatz?"   He imposed the EU austerity plan and people suffered greatly.  He got voted out.  Zelensky, the current president, has a sketchy past.  He ran on a peace in the Donbas platform and people thought he would follow the Minsk accord.  But once elected he pulled a 180 change.  According to this, it's because the far-right threatened him, and he is thought by some to just be a puppet. 

How Ukraine’s Jewish president Zelensky made peace with neo-Nazi paramilitaries on front lines of war with Russia

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/04/nazis-ukrainian-war-russia/


nan said:

drummerboy said:

that recording, as has been pointed out numerous times (terp was the last to post it just a few days ago) proves nothing at all.

a mid-level government functionary expressing a preference for a candidate is not proof of a coup. And I'm embarrassed that I have to say that among adults.

the fact that you find this clip so damning is further indication that your claim of a coup is baseless. 

your level of what constitutes evidence is extremely, extremely low, as has been established many times on MOL.

They are not discussing a preference.  They are arranging a coup with sign offs obtained.  It's very clear.  That you can't see this is might be deliberate blindness, embarrassing denial, or some other defect.  There is lots of other evidence.  Watch the movie Ukraine on Fire and see them hanging out with protesters and all the other clues.  

The Nuland conversation was 24 days before "Yatz" was installed as discussed on February 26th, 2014. The World Socialists used the term "gangsterism" to describe Nuland and Co. and describe how this fulfills the neocon desire for direct confrontation with Russia.  

Leaked phone call on Ukraine lays bare Washington’s gangsterism

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/10/pers-f10.html

highlight:

"

The real political significance of the phone conversation between Nuland and Pyatt is left largely in the shade. This is no accident, as the call provides a devastating exposure of the criminal and imperialist character of US policy in Ukraine and debunks the phony “democratic” pretensions of the Obama administration.

In his State of the Union speech last month, Obama declared: “In Ukraine, we stand for the principle that all people have the right to express themselves freely and peacefully, and to have a say in their country’s future.”

What the tape makes clear, however, is that Washington is employing methods of international gangsterism, including violence, to effect a political coup aimed at installing a regime that is fully subordinate to US geo-strategic interests. This operation has no more to do with democracy than the US-orchestrated coups in countries like Chile and Argentina some 40 years ago.

The precise goal of US efforts is to shift political power into the hands of a collection of Western-aligned Ukrainian oligarchs who enriched themselves off of the private appropriation—theft—of state property carried out as part of the Stalinist bureaucracy’s dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991. In doing so, it aims to turn Ukraine into a US imperialist beachhead on the very border of Russia, whose territory it also wants to divide and subjugate to neocolonial status as part of its drive to assert American hegemony throughout the strategic landmass of Eurasia.

The Nuland-Pyatt conversation is concerned with the nuts and bolts of this venture. They involve the whipping up of anti-Russian Ukrainian nationalism and aid to far-right political forces that serve as a battering ram against the government of President Viktor Yanukovych. The Ukraine president’s turn toward a deal with Russia rather than integration into the European Union was the spark for the current campaign for regime-change.

Nuland makes clear that behind the scenes, Washington is dictating which leaders of the opposition—referred to as “the big three”—should enter the government to swing it behind Washington and what role the others will play. Arseniy Yatsenyuk of the Fatherland Party, who served as minister of economy and minister of foreign affairs in the ill-fated government brought to power by the so-called Orange Revolution orchestrated by Washington in 2004, is identified by the assistant secretary of state as “the guy who’s got the economic experience, the governing experience.”

Nuland proposes that two other prominent right-wing leaders of the anti-Yanukovych protests—ex-boxer Vitali Klitschko, the chief of the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reforms, or Udar (an acronym that means “punch”), and Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of the neo-fascist Svoboda party—remain “on the outside,” continuing to whip up right-wing mobs. Yatsenyuk, she adds, “needs to be talking to them four times a week.”

She and the ambassador refer to two of these figures as “Yats” and “Klitsch,” the kind of names normally reserved for poodles.

During her latest visit to Kiev, which coincided with the leaking of the phone call, Nuland met and posed publicly with the three opposition leaders mentioned in the taped conversation—“Yats,” “Klitsch” and the man who is playing the decisive role in the organization of the violent protests in Maidan Square, Svoboda leader Tyahnybok.

Tyahnybok was reportedly banned last year from entering the US because of rabidly anti-Semitic speeches praising his followers for striking fear in “the Moscow-Jewish mafia ruling Ukraine,” and hailing World War II-era Ukrainian fascists for fighting Russians, Germans “kikes and other scum.” This, however, did not give Nuland pause.

During her previous visit to Ukraine in December 2013, Nuland, the grand-daughter of Jewish immigrants who fled to America to escape pogroms in Tsarist Russia, provided a uniquely repellent spectacle, handing out cookies in Maidan square to Svoboda thugs who venerate the mass murderers of Hitler’s SS.

"

ridiculous.

Where in that piece do they actually provide evidence from the call that any of their claims are true?

Nowhere is where.

As I said, your evidentiary standards are practically non-existent. All it takes is for someone to cater to your preconceived notions.


nan said:


The Nuland conversation was 24 days before "Yatz" was installed as discussed on February 26th, 2014. The World Socialists used the term "gangsterism" to describe Nuland and Co. and describe how this fulfills the neocon desire for direct confrontation with Russia.  


So this was all orchestrated to create a direct confrontation with Russia, and now that Russia has invaded these same people are rejecting claims to impose a no-fly zone and categorically ruling out US ground troops so as to avoid a direct confrontation with Russia. Truly these are wheels within wheels.


nan,

you continually bring up Manufacturing Consent, a concept I happen to agree with.

But do you think that the concept is only limited to one ideology? Have you ever considered that all of your trusted sources are engaging in the same thing?


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