My earlier comment was "twitter’s spiral has had no meaningful effect on (Musk's) public profile." 

Which is presumably what you disagreed with when you said "That's not true" and posted the WaPo article from Feb.

So I am defending my orig statement being true, and disagreeing with your dissent. 

Smedley said:

My earlier comment was "twitter’s spiral has had no meaningful effect on (Musk's) public profile." 

Which is presumably what you disagreed with when you said "That's not true" and posted the WaPo article from Feb.

So I am defending my orig statement being true, and disagreeing with your dissent. 

it has had a meaningful effect. (Unless of course you think taking a reputational hit among liberals and Democrats isn't meaningful.) 

there are many surveys showing just that.  even your Yougov survey shows Musk's rating still underwater among Democrats.

and the reason I'm saying this is because instead of focusing on what Americans think of Musk since he started talking about buying Twitter, it's important to remember that just a couple of years ago, he was quite popular across the spectrum.  From March, 2021:

America Really Loves Elon Musk

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

My earlier comment was "twitter’s spiral has had no meaningful effect on (Musk's) public profile." 

Which is presumably what you disagreed with when you said "That's not true" and posted the WaPo article from Feb.

So I am defending my orig statement being true, and disagreeing with your dissent. 

it has had a meaningful effect. (Unless of course you think taking a reputational hit among liberals and Democrats isn't meaningful.) 

there are many surveys showing just that.  even your Yougov survey shows Musk's rating still underwater among Democrats.

As the Yougov report shows, Musk's unfavorable rating has increased from 31% from when he offered to buy Twitter in April 2022, to 37% as of late last month. His favorable rating increased from 49% to 53%.

This to me is the bottom line in assessing what effect Twitter has had on Musk's public profile. Not whether he's still underwater with Dems, or whether the left has moved from disliking him to loathing him. 

I don't think going from a 18% to 16% net margin is a meaningful effect - I'd call it a marginal effect. But I guess you think it's meaningful.

People on the left have actually gone from liking Musk to disliking him. If you think that's not meaningful I guess I can see that. 

I don't agree with that. But if that's what you mean by "not meaningful", OK then. 

Smedley said:

As the Yougov report shows, Musk's unfavorable rating has increased from 31% from when he offered to buy Twitter in April 2022, to 37% as of late last month. His favorable rating increased from 49% to 53%.

For the record, both within YouGov’s self-reported three-point margin of error.

I'm a bit curious about yougov's sampling and how it controlled.  For example, this was the education metric:

72. What is the highest level of education you have completed?
HS or less . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36%
Some college . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29%
College grad . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .22%
Postgrad . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .13%

According to the Census Bureau, education attainment for 25+ was:

• In 2021, the highest level of education of the population age 25 and older in the United States was distributed as follows:
  • 8.9% had less than a high school diploma or equivalent.
  • 27.9% had high school graduate as their highest level of school completed.
  • 14.9% had completed some college but not a degree.
  • 10.5% had an associate degree as their highest level of school completed.
  • 23.5% had a bachelor’s degree as their highest degree.
  • 14.4% had completed an advanced degree such as a master’s degree, professional degree or doctoral degree
    

Even assuming that the HS seniors who were 18 on April 1 would have graduated shortly thereafter, the survey seems heavily skewed to the uneducated.

ml1 said:

People on the left have actually gone from liking Musk to disliking him. If you think that's not meaningful I guess I can see that. 

I don't agree with that. But if that's what you mean by "not meaningful", OK then. 

That's just anecdotal. Yes okay if your neighbor sold her Tesla bc she can't stand being seen driving a Muskmobile, then that's one thing. But, from the aggregate numbers as per Yougov, there aren't many people who fall in this category, or if there are, they're largely offset by people who have gone from disliking Musk to liking him.

Open to reassessing my view if you have data that shows otherwise, rather than just restating your dug-in opinion.

I'll also note that only 21% of the yougov respondents were under the age of 30.

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

People on the left have actually gone from liking Musk to disliking him. If you think that's not meaningful I guess I can see that. 

I don't agree with that. But if that's what you mean by "not meaningful", OK then. 

That's just anecdotal. Yes okay if your neighbor sold her Tesla bc she can't stand being seen driving a Muskmobile, then that's one thing. But, from the aggregate numbers as per Yougov, there aren't many people who fall in this category, or if there are, they're largely offset by people who have gone from disliking Musk to liking him.

Open to reassessing my view if you have data that shows otherwise, rather than just restating your dug-in opinion.

it's not anecdotal. The surveys used to show all ideological groups liking Musk equally. Now they show Republicans liking him a lot more than Democrats. 

Okay, so more Ds dislike Musk than previously, and more Rs like Musk. But how/why is that meaningful to Musk? As a CEO, business owner, capital raiser, entrepreneur, political aspirant, or whatever?   

Steve said:

I'm a bit curious about yougov's sampling and how it controlled.

You’ll never find out, because YouGov, like most pollsters, weights its sample according to its own “secret sauce” when calculating its results.

Smedley said:

Okay, so more Ds dislike Musk than previously, and more Rs like Musk. But how/why is that meaningful to Musk? As a CEO, business owner, capital raiser, entrepreneur, political aspirant, or whatever?   

all things being equal, if I was a CEO I wouldn't want my popularity to fall among a group representing about a third of the population. Especially if my product category ownership tended to skew a bit toward that group. If you were a consultant to a CEO, I'm guessing you'd tell him the same.

Will it hurt Tesla sales in the long run? Probably not, as I alluded to earlier, liberals tend not to let their dislike of an executive influence their purchase behavior. Why take the chance if you're a prudent CEO though?

and why take the chance in a marketplace that's becoming a lot more competitive?

The latest data shows that Tesla continues to dominate, but its market share is shrinking as competitors roll out new models.Since January 2022, for example, Tesla's share of the EV market fell from 72% to 54% — and it will likely slide below 50% in the next month or two, says Tom Libby, associate director of industry analysis at S&P Global Mobility.Tesla's Model S sedan, in particular, has been struggling. Registrations for the S plummeted 75% in January 2023, while those of Mercedes-Benz's new EQS sedan quadrupled.

Where it stands: Tesla's Model Y and Model 3 hold the largest market share and are still growing, but rival cars are quickly gaining ground.General Motors' Chevrolet Bolt is the most popular non-Tesla EV, with a 10% share — due in part to a $6,000 price cut following a damaging battery recall.Volkswagen's ID.4 and Ford's Mustang Mach-E rounded out the top five EVs registered in January by market share.

If I was a Tesla shareholder, I have to say I'd be pretty frustrated that the CEO keeps trolling a big segment of the market.

There are better EVs on the market, so yeah, people will ditch the Tesla. No CEO should be a political hack on social media. Just look what happened to the idiot with the pillows… morons.

ml1 said:

and why take the chance in a marketplace that's becoming a lot more competitive?

The latest data shows that Tesla continues to dominate, but its market share is shrinking as competitors roll out new models.Since January 2022, for example, Tesla's share of the EV market fell from 72% to 54% — and it will likely slide below 50% in the next month or two, says Tom Libby, associate director of industry analysis at S&P Global Mobility.Tesla's Model S sedan, in particular, has been struggling. Registrations for the S plummeted 75% in January 2023, while those of Mercedes-Benz's new EQS sedan quadrupled.

Where it stands: Tesla's Model Y and Model 3 hold the largest market share and are still growing, but rival cars are quickly gaining ground.General Motors' Chevrolet Bolt is the most popular non-Tesla EV, with a 10% share — due in part to a $6,000 price cut following a damaging battery recall.Volkswagen's ID.4 and Ford's Mustang Mach-E rounded out the top five EVs registered in January by market share.

If I was a Tesla shareholder, I have to say I'd be pretty frustrated that the CEO keeps trolling a big segment of the market.

Just like when you posted a dated article, you seem to be behind the curve here. $TSLA was a bit wobbly late '22 / early '23, partly on concern about Musk being an asshat. But the stock has more than doubled this year and it's one of the best performing in the S&P 500. So I doubt that many shareholders are frustrated right now. I know I'm not.

Musk hired a CEO for Twitter and it seems to me like he's dialed back the jerky stuff. Sure he expresses his political views and some people might not like that but expressing one's political views isn't trolling. 

You say he "keeps trolling a big segment of the market" -- what are recent (say, Q2) examples of this trolling in your opinion? 

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

and why take the chance in a marketplace that's becoming a lot more competitive?

The latest data shows that Tesla continues to dominate, but its market share is shrinking as competitors roll out new models.Since January 2022, for example, Tesla's share of the EV market fell from 72% to 54% — and it will likely slide below 50% in the next month or two, says Tom Libby, associate director of industry analysis at S&P Global Mobility.Tesla's Model S sedan, in particular, has been struggling. Registrations for the S plummeted 75% in January 2023, while those of Mercedes-Benz's new EQS sedan quadrupled.

Where it stands: Tesla's Model Y and Model 3 hold the largest market share and are still growing, but rival cars are quickly gaining ground.General Motors' Chevrolet Bolt is the most popular non-Tesla EV, with a 10% share — due in part to a $6,000 price cut following a damaging battery recall.Volkswagen's ID.4 and Ford's Mustang Mach-E rounded out the top five EVs registered in January by market share.

If I was a Tesla shareholder, I have to say I'd be pretty frustrated that the CEO keeps trolling a big segment of the market.

Just like when you posted a dated article, you seem to be behind the curve here. $TSLA was a bit wobbly late '22 / early '23, partly on concern about Musk being an asshat. But the stock has more than doubled this year and it's one of the best performing in the S&P 500. So I doubt that many shareholders are frustrated right now. I know I'm not.

Musk hired a CEO for Twitter and it seems to me like he's dialed back the jerky stuff. Sure he expresses his political views and some people might not like that but expressing one's political views isn't trolling. 

You say he "keeps trolling a big segment of the market" -- what are recent (say, Q2) examples of this trolling in your opinion? 

I'm not "behind the curve" on this. I'm actually looking forward as the EV market gets more and more crowded with competitors. If I was a shareholder I'd be concerned for the long term (5 years or more) even if Musk wasn't being Musk. And in a more competitive marketplace, companies should be looking to cultivate their customers, not annoy them. Maybe some people don't plan to hold stocks for 4 or 5 years or longer and don't care, but many people do invest for the long term.

I feel like you're just being argumentative for the sake of arguing. I can't see how it's a good idea for any CEO of any company to purposely spend his time insulting a segment of the population. It might not hurt business, but why risk it? And it's trolling, not politics when you spend your time tweeting about "the woke mind virus" and other such nonsense. 

I'm not going to search for the dates of his tweets, because if he hasn't doing any trolling of the libs in the past few weeks and doesn't do any more going forward, don't you think maybe he and his advisors are in agreement with the larger point about not alienating customers?

sheesh, I only had to go back about a few days in this thread to find an example of a Musk tweet taking aim at trans people

DaveSchmidt said:

You’ll never find out, because YouGov, like most pollsters, weights its sample according to its own “secret sauce” when calculating its results.

I know - doesn't mean that I can't be curious about it.

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

and why take the chance in a marketplace that's becoming a lot more competitive?

The latest data shows that Tesla continues to dominate, but its market share is shrinking as competitors roll out new models.Since January 2022, for example, Tesla's share of the EV market fell from 72% to 54% — and it will likely slide below 50% in the next month or two, says Tom Libby, associate director of industry analysis at S&P Global Mobility.Tesla's Model S sedan, in particular, has been struggling. Registrations for the S plummeted 75% in January 2023, while those of Mercedes-Benz's new EQS sedan quadrupled.

Where it stands: Tesla's Model Y and Model 3 hold the largest market share and are still growing, but rival cars are quickly gaining ground.General Motors' Chevrolet Bolt is the most popular non-Tesla EV, with a 10% share — due in part to a $6,000 price cut following a damaging battery recall.Volkswagen's ID.4 and Ford's Mustang Mach-E rounded out the top five EVs registered in January by market share.

If I was a Tesla shareholder, I have to say I'd be pretty frustrated that the CEO keeps trolling a big segment of the market.

Just like when you posted a dated article, you seem to be behind the curve here. $TSLA was a bit wobbly late '22 / early '23, partly on concern about Musk being an asshat. But the stock has more than doubled this year and it's one of the best performing in the S&P 500. So I doubt that many shareholders are frustrated right now. I know I'm not.

Musk hired a CEO for Twitter and it seems to me like he's dialed back the jerky stuff. Sure he expresses his political views and some people might not like that but expressing one's political views isn't trolling. 

You say he "keeps trolling a big segment of the market" -- what are recent (say, Q2) examples of this trolling in your opinion? 

I'm not "behind the curve" on this. I'm actually looking forward as the EV market gets more and more crowded with competitors. If I was a shareholder I'd be concerned for the long term (5 years or more) even if Musk wasn't being Musk. And in a more competitive marketplace, companies should be looking to cultivate their customers, not annoy them. Maybe some people don't plan to hold stocks for 4 or 5 years or longer and don't care, but many people do invest for the long term.

I feel like you're just being argumentative for the sake of arguing. I can't see how it's a good idea for any CEO of any company to purposely spend his time insulting a segment of the population. It might not hurt business, but why risk it? And it's trolling, not politics when you spend your time tweeting about "the woke mind virus" and other such nonsense. 

I'm not going to search for the dates of his tweets, because if he hasn't doing any trolling of the libs in the past few weeks and doesn't do any more going forward, don't you think maybe he and his advisors are in agreement with the larger point about not alienating customers?

"I can't see how it's a good idea for any CEO of any company to purposely spend his time insulting a segment of the population."- I agree; not sure who you're arguing with here

"don't you think maybe he and his advisors are in agreement with the larger point about not alienating customers?" - yes, which I suspect is why he's been less jerky, and is part of the reason why both TSLA stock, and Musk's net favorability rating as per Yougov report, bottomed 5-6 months ago.  

Beyond that I just think you have a broader definition of trolling and what's objectionable or insulting than does the average person. 

Smedley said:

"I can't see how it's a good idea for any CEO of any company to purposely spend his time insulting a segment of the population."- I agree; not sure who you're arguing with here

"don't you think maybe he and his advisors are in agreement with the larger point about not alienating customers?" - yes, which I suspect is why he's been less jerky, and is part of the reason why both TSLA stock, and Musk's net favorability rating as per Yougov report, bottomed 5-6 months ago.  

Beyond that I just think you have a broader definition of trolling and what's objectionable or insulting than does the average person. 

Just today, Elon Musk has been indulging in full bore anti-trans posting. I guess he and others are of the opinion that's not objectionable or insulting to the average person.

Steve said:

I know - doesn't mean that I can't be curious about it.

You’re right, Steve. Disregard my comment.

DaveSchmidt said:

Steve said:

I know - doesn't mean that I can't be curious about it.

You’re right, Steve. Disregard my comment.

But it's part of why I don't necessarily trust that type of survey. 

It's true that both Twitter and Tesla are closely tied to Musk, but, as I've insisted throughout this thread, I don't agree it follows that both companies ought to be looked at the same way.

They're in very different markets for one thing, so it's unclear why one would have expected Musk's success to Tesla to translate to Twitter, or look at Musk's face planting Twitter and expect this to have direct implication for Tesla. The ownership and control structures are also quite different. Musk fully owns Twitter and clearly fully runs it, which is not the case with Tesla. (we'll see if Yaccarino ends up being more than a figurehead CEO).

It's also unclear why someone who is a "Musk hater" would wish ill upon Tesla. I suppose it depends why one dislikes Musk. As I've been clear about on this thread, my primary problem with him is that he took over a company that paid well and gave its workers a good work life balance and fired most of them and destroyed the value of the company (important so part of the compensation package at a company like Twitter is stock). Why would I want him to do the same to Tesla? Yes, that would dent his net worth, but I'm sure he'd manage to survive on a handful of billions instead of a bucketful, whereas the people who work at Tesla would find themselves in a difficult position.

One fear I had was that Musk would be successful at Twitter, inspiring other bosses to declare their own war on workers and follow his slash and burn model. I'm glad to see that hasn't come to pass.

In a distant third place, I do get irked by the "free speech" people who laud Musk as some sort of hero, when it's clear he (and they) don't actually want free speech, they simply are upset that their speech isn't getting more traction and, like the MAGAns (two venn circles with plenty of overlap), simply like Musk for his attacks against their political and cultural opponents.

Smedley said:

"I can't see how it's a good idea for any CEO of any company to purposely spend his time insulting a segment of the population."- I agree; not sure who you're arguing with here

"don't you think maybe he and his advisors are in agreement with the larger point about not alienating customers?" - yes, which I suspect is why he's been less jerky, and is part of the reason why both TSLA stock, and Musk's net favorability rating as per Yougov report, bottomed 5-6 months ago.  

Beyond that I just think you have a broader definition of trolling and what's objectionable or insulting than does the average person. 

my definition probably matches that of all the Democrats and liberals who don't like Musk as much as they did before he bought Twitter. 

My reference to his trolling is to explain what I've seen in the polling. 

Holy cow this has been tedious.

ml1 said:

sheesh, I only had to go back about a few days in this thread to find an example of a Musk tweet taking aim at trans people

How is that taking aim at trans people?

paulsurovell said:

nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

Also in the public record. Any reporting by US major media or commentary by journalists at US major media?

https://www.nuj.org.uk/resource/nuj-expresses-concern-over-detention-of-journalist-kit-klarenberg.html

NUJ expresses concern over detention of journalist Kit Klarenberg

And just like that - - it's gone. 

Never underestimate the power of the establishment.

Seriously, as Roman Protasevich and his girlfriend Sofia would tell you.

terp said:

ml1 said:

sheesh, I only had to go back about a few days in this thread to find an example of a Musk tweet taking aim at trans people

How is that taking aim at trans people?

because he's endorsing a "documentary" that takes aim at trans people.

It's not that hard to understand.

drummerboy said:

terp said:

ml1 said:

sheesh, I only had to go back about a few days in this thread to find an example of a Musk tweet taking aim at trans people

How is that taking aim at trans people?

because he's endorsing a "documentary" that takes aim at trans people.

It's not that hard to understand.

I watched that film.  It does not take aim at trans people. 

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

"I can't see how it's a good idea for any CEO of any company to purposely spend his time insulting a segment of the population."- I agree; not sure who you're arguing with here

"don't you think maybe he and his advisors are in agreement with the larger point about not alienating customers?" - yes, which I suspect is why he's been less jerky, and is part of the reason why both TSLA stock, and Musk's net favorability rating as per Yougov report, bottomed 5-6 months ago.  

Beyond that I just think you have a broader definition of trolling and what's objectionable or insulting than does the average person. 

my definition probably matches that of all the Democrats and liberals who don't like Musk as much as they did before he bought Twitter. 

My reference to his trolling is to explain what I've seen in the polling. 

Holy cow this has been tedious.

It's a debate which you entered on your own volition and participated in on your own volition. You were free to not enter the debate, and you were/are free to drop off at any time. 

Just quit whingein'