Trustees agree to investigate alternative uses for Village Hall
I'm thrilled they're moving forward with this. I only hope the Village takes it incredibly seriously and does a quality, thorough job attempting to sell Village Hall.
South Orange has a mammoth physical infrastructure problem. Not only are the majority of our buildings crumbling and in need of millions upon millions of taxpayer dollars (each!) to restore and then continue to mantain ad infinitum but they simply weren't constructed to meet our current day municipal needs.
I believe this is a pivitol time for the future of South Orange. Everyone talks about our high tax burden but there are precious few ways to actually have a substantial impact on it. Reevaluating, completely rethinking and getting creative about our building and land needs and uses while greatly decreasing our money borrowing and debt load are one of the few ways to actually address it.
Talking about taking action to possibly selling Village Hall while moving forward with plans to renovate it is a fine beginning to the conversation but it is one small piece, a very tiny step. I look forward to seeing where it takes us.
South Orange has a mammoth physical infrastructure problem. Not only are the majority of our buildings crumbling and in need of millions upon millions of taxpayer dollars (each!) to restore and then continue to mantain ad infinitum but they simply weren't constructed to meet our current day municipal needs.
I believe this is a pivitol time for the future of South Orange. Everyone talks about our high tax burden but there are precious few ways to actually have a substantial impact on it. Reevaluating, completely rethinking and getting creative about our building and land needs and uses while greatly decreasing our money borrowing and debt load are one of the few ways to actually address it.
Talking about taking action to possibly selling Village Hall while moving forward with plans to renovate it is a fine beginning to the conversation but it is one small piece, a very tiny step. I look forward to seeing where it takes us.
FilmCarp said:
susan, the board and counsel were in unanimous agreement that we don't really want to lease the place and retain any liability or any chance to get it handed back to us. That defeats the purpose. We need to sell it and be done with it or renovate it and move back in.
Fair enough...but it would certainly be hundreds of thousands of dollars more attractive with the option of an easy license.
+1 to Fishy.
Will be interesting to see if we go out and offer this like we actually would like to do a deal, or like we are just "checking off a box" before the ever more expensive renovation.
Will be interesting to see if we go out and offer this like we actually would like to do a deal, or like we are just "checking off a box" before the ever more expensive renovation.
so what would ideally go there? seems like a great location on a heavily travelled intersection vs the maplewood post office conundrum. office building would require too many car spaces, medical offices would be nice, like an extension of summit medical in berkely heights. too odd and large of a building design for another restaurant.
cramer said:
In August, 2011, South Orange received a grant of $669,000 from the NJHT for preservation projects.
The asbestos abatement cost is $427,000, and the cost of the asbestos engineer was $80,000 for a total of $507,000. One way of looking at is that the cost of asbestos abatement was paid for with the grant, with around $150,000 left over, to get the building prepared to market.
Jun 17, 2014 at 9:12am Edited
http://www.nj.gov/dep/hpo/2protection/njrrevew.htm
Laura, I didn't want to wave my credentials, but you've forced my hand! My knowledge comes from 20 years experience with historic preservation compliance in NJ. What you have cited relates only to private property listed on the National Register. The NR is totally irrelevant to the planned sale, and would only kick in if Federal funds were involved.
Please take a look at the what the requirements for an "undertaking" under the NJRHPA, the only relevant law. I know I'm repeating myself, but a sale is an undertaking, and must be authorized by the HPO. A sale without preservation restrictions is an "encroachment," and wouldn't be approved. To put it another way, the buyer will have to follow NJRHPA procedures even if they are a private party, and won't be able to demolish without HPO and Sites Council approval, a highly unlikely scenario.
dave, FilmCarp, the linked article, and others have said the same thing minus the citing of chapter and verse. Village Hall cannot be demolished without a qualified preservation architect stating it's beyond repair. Even then approval by the Sites Council isn't guarunteed. In any case, the NJHT grant demolishes that possibility. There's no confusion on this issue if one looks at the correct rules.
And I hate to throw more cold water on the optimism expressed here, but no private buyer is going to take on that money pit without a very low sale price and tax abatements upfront. Even with that, the odds of someone coming forward are very slim. Having to virtually gut and reconfigure the interior will be an enormous cost to recoup. The experience with the Maplewood Women's Club, which had a buyer with ample resources and no historic restrictions, may be relevant.
Laura, I didn't want to wave my credentials, but you've forced my hand! My knowledge comes from 20 years experience with historic preservation compliance in NJ. What you have cited relates only to private property listed on the National Register. The NR is totally irrelevant to the planned sale, and would only kick in if Federal funds were involved.
Please take a look at the what the requirements for an "undertaking" under the NJRHPA, the only relevant law. I know I'm repeating myself, but a sale is an undertaking, and must be authorized by the HPO. A sale without preservation restrictions is an "encroachment," and wouldn't be approved. To put it another way, the buyer will have to follow NJRHPA procedures even if they are a private party, and won't be able to demolish without HPO and Sites Council approval, a highly unlikely scenario.
dave, FilmCarp, the linked article, and others have said the same thing minus the citing of chapter and verse. Village Hall cannot be demolished without a qualified preservation architect stating it's beyond repair. Even then approval by the Sites Council isn't guarunteed. In any case, the NJHT grant demolishes that possibility. There's no confusion on this issue if one looks at the correct rules.
And I hate to throw more cold water on the optimism expressed here, but no private buyer is going to take on that money pit without a very low sale price and tax abatements upfront. Even with that, the odds of someone coming forward are very slim. Having to virtually gut and reconfigure the interior will be an enormous cost to recoup. The experience with the Maplewood Women's Club, which had a buyer with ample resources and no historic restrictions, may be relevant.
One dollar would be an acceptable sale price for VH. Since we've already taken care of the asbestos abatement, someone might be willing to pay that much.
Though I'd want the town to get a few bucks for the parking lot.
Though I'd want the town to get a few bucks for the parking lot.
dk50b, I don't like to wave my credentials either. Suffice to say I have about the same experience you do. You are aware of who did the planning for SO's HPC? And wrote the NJHT application? And who wrote the encroachment application for the old stone house? I do have a pretty good handle on the state regs. 
I cited the national register info for exactly the reason you stated--so folks could see it wasn't relevant to the potential demo of the building. I cited the state regs so folks could see that if the building is privately owned it may be demolished. I seriously doubt an encroachment app would be denied by SHPO, particularly if funding isn't available to finish the project (which is how the village got approval to sell the OSH). The only thing that can prevent a private owner from demolishing the building is a local ordinance. I left the village before the HPC was actually implemented so I don't know if its regulatory powers include consideration of a demo request.
Anyway, I'm arguing against what I think would be best. Village hall does have the potential of being truly valuable to SO. There aren't many towns that still have original working town halls. With properly done rehabilitation it would be a real asset.
I cited the national register info for exactly the reason you stated--so folks could see it wasn't relevant to the potential demo of the building. I cited the state regs so folks could see that if the building is privately owned it may be demolished. I seriously doubt an encroachment app would be denied by SHPO, particularly if funding isn't available to finish the project (which is how the village got approval to sell the OSH). The only thing that can prevent a private owner from demolishing the building is a local ordinance. I left the village before the HPC was actually implemented so I don't know if its regulatory powers include consideration of a demo request.
Anyway, I'm arguing against what I think would be best. Village hall does have the potential of being truly valuable to SO. There aren't many towns that still have original working town halls. With properly done rehabilitation it would be a real asset.
Laura_Harris said:
dk50b, I don't like to wave my credentials either. Suffice to say I have about the same experience you do. You are aware of who did the planning for SO's HPC? And wrote the NJHT application? And who wrote the encroachment application for the old stone house? I do have a pretty good handle on the state regs.
I cited the national register info for exactly the reason you stated--so folks could see it wasn't relevant to the potential demo of the building. I cited the state regs so folks could see that if the building is privately owned it may be demolished. I seriously doubt an encroachment app would be denied by SHPO, particularly if funding isn't available to finish the project (which is how the village got approval to sell the OSH). The only thing that can prevent a private owner from demolishing the building is a local ordinance. I left the village before the HPC was actually implemented so I don't know if its regulatory powers include consideration of a demo request.
Anyway, I'm arguing against what I think would be best. Village hall does have the potential of being truly valuable to SO. There aren't many towns that still have original working town halls. With properly done rehabilitation it would be a real asset.
The Village did not get the approval to sell the OSH from SHPO. That's another issue altogether, and simply muddies the water here.
Historic Preservation Comission ordinance and Local Landmarks ordinance can be found here:
http://southorange.no-ip.org/weblink8/0/doc/105764/Page1.aspx
http://southorange.no-ip.org/weblink8/0/doc/119132/Page1.aspx
I thought it was the charrettes that made the recommendation for the HPC... "Based on three public Community Charrettes and research by Heyer, Gruel & Associates and Acroterion, LLC, Historic Preservation Consulting, the consultants selected to conduct this study, these Draft Recommendations for a South Orange Historic Commission were developed."
http://www.southorange.org/historicPreservation/HistoricFiles/HistoryPreservationPlan_72309.pdf
Yes marylago, it most certainly did. I wrote the encroachment application and permission was received. Not sure from where you're getting your information, but it's incorrect. And it doesn't muddy the water since it's relevant to the current situation.
Your link is not necessary. For clarification's sake: the HPC study was an offshoot of a grant funded Smart Futures planning study. I wrote the additional grant application that funded the study. I was the project manager for the study. I oversaw the process and worked with first Mark Healey, then Paul Glietz, of HGAPA in developing the study. I scheduled the charettes. I advertised the charettes. I arranged for the facilities. I attended all charettes. I kept the minutes & sign-in sheets. I oversaw HGAPA's work and ensured the project met benchmarks & stayed on schedule. I participated in developing the recommendations and edited the report. I put the completed report on the BOT agenda & answered questions. I forwarded the report to the PB secretary for their review & approval.
But thanks for the link to the report I helped draft.
Your link is not necessary. For clarification's sake: the HPC study was an offshoot of a grant funded Smart Futures planning study. I wrote the additional grant application that funded the study. I was the project manager for the study. I oversaw the process and worked with first Mark Healey, then Paul Glietz, of HGAPA in developing the study. I scheduled the charettes. I advertised the charettes. I arranged for the facilities. I attended all charettes. I kept the minutes & sign-in sheets. I oversaw HGAPA's work and ensured the project met benchmarks & stayed on schedule. I participated in developing the recommendations and edited the report. I put the completed report on the BOT agenda & answered questions. I forwarded the report to the PB secretary for their review & approval.
But thanks for the link to the report I helped draft.
If they sell the place I will be happy to give everyone who wants it credit. But I will start with Mr. Fishy.
I think selling the building without a determination as to whether or not it can be demolished is a waste of time. The building is unquestionably a money pit and cant be salvaged without extensive subsidy including a transfer from the Village for zero consideration. A determination from SHPO or whomever has authority over demolition is a first and necessary step.
Looks like they put together a plan that evenings could win with
http://villagegreennj.com/south-orange-moves-ahead-with-village-hall-rfp-assures-preservation/towns/government/
http://villagegreennj.com/south-orange-moves-ahead-with-village-hall-rfp-assures-preservation/towns/government/
scottgreenstone said:
Looks like they put together a plan that evenings could win with
http://villagegreennj.com/south-orange-moves-ahead-with-village-hall-rfp-assures-preservation/towns/government/
??? Everyone could win with? Well, then again, if it were open in the evenings, I guess they could win too.
I am cautiously optimistic and definitely happier after attending last night's meeting, and hearing about the Historic Preservation Easement.
marcsiry said:
We should turn it into one of those seasonal "haunted houses" that pop up around Halloween. It's already pretty scary inside.
To retain the local flavor, we could have actors wandering the halls trying to get you to drink Perch infused water, or youngsters in plaid popping out to shock and surprise you with a $25 sewer surcharge.
Try looking at the basement or upper floor of the Connett Building if you want to see scary. Paint peeling, ceilings falling, windows broken, doors shredded, old parking meters lined up like an elephants grave yard, no A/C and now no heat. Boiler exploded end of season.
Whether it works or not they deserve credit for listening and trying. The easements will make it hard to sell, so we will probably end up renovating it.
FilmCarp said:
Whether it works or not they deserve credit for listening and trying. The easements will make it hard to sell, so we will probably end up renovating it.
I'm really struggling with "if no one else wants it, we should spend millions to renovate it, even if we have less expensive options elsewhere". I'm sentimental about the building, but I'm not sure how far my sentiment goes.
Jun 24, 2014 at 4:27am Edited
Last night, Ben Salmon said that South Orange is faced with an aging infrastructure that is going to require large sums of money to renovate. The only municipal buildings that do not require extensive and expensive renovations are the firehouse and SOPAC. The library, Baird and police station are all going to need renovations. Ben suggested that all of the buildings be looked at as a whole and determine what the future needs are, rather than looking at one building at a time.
The library requires $13 million in renovations. Ben threw out the idea that Village Hall be converted to a digital library. The library could be sold to a developer to help pay for all of the other infrastructure work that's required. He said that this was just an idea, but hoped that it would spur some creative thinking to address our aging infrastructure needs. I suspect that it is too late in the process to consider this, but Ben's point is a good one. All of South Orange's buildings should be looked at as a whole, instead of looking at them one at a time.
eta - Ben's suggestion would also allow the building to be used for Village business, such as BOT meetings, committee meetings, etc, so that the Village could continue to rent at 76 South Orange Ave. and not incur the cost of using SOPAC for meetings. This was included in the comparisons done by Barry Lewis for selling the building vs. continuing to rent at 76 South Orange Ave.
The library requires $13 million in renovations. Ben threw out the idea that Village Hall be converted to a digital library. The library could be sold to a developer to help pay for all of the other infrastructure work that's required. He said that this was just an idea, but hoped that it would spur some creative thinking to address our aging infrastructure needs. I suspect that it is too late in the process to consider this, but Ben's point is a good one. All of South Orange's buildings should be looked at as a whole, instead of looking at them one at a time.
eta - Ben's suggestion would also allow the building to be used for Village business, such as BOT meetings, committee meetings, etc, so that the Village could continue to rent at 76 South Orange Ave. and not incur the cost of using SOPAC for meetings. This was included in the comparisons done by Barry Lewis for selling the building vs. continuing to rent at 76 South Orange Ave.
cramer said:
Last night, Ben Salmon said that South Orange is faced with an aging infrastructure that is going to require large sums of money to renovate. The only municipal buildings that do not require extensive and expensive renovations are the firehouse and SOPAC. The library, Baird and police station are all going to need renovations. Ben suggested that all of the buildings be looked at as a whole and determine what the future needs are, rather than looking at one building at a time.
The library requires $13 million in renovations. Ben threw out the idea that Village Hall be converted to a digital library. The library could be sold to a developer to help pay for all of the other infrastructure work that's required. He said that this was just an idea, but hoped that it would spur some creative thinking to address our aging infrastructure needs. I suspect that it is too late in the process to consider this, but Ben's point is a good one. All of South Orange's buildings should be looked at as a whole, instead of looking at them one at a time.
eta - Ben's suggestion would also allow the building to be used for Village business, such as BOT meetings, committee meetings, etc, so that the Village could continue to rent at 76 South Orange Ave. and not incur the cost of using SOPAC for meetings. This was included in the comparisons done by Barry Lewis for selling the building vs. continuing to rent at 76 South Orange Ave.
I loved the idea. That man is brilliant.
Yup...my fear is that Ben is too brilliant to be willing to run for office!
(FWIW, a cool state-of-the-art digital library cost-saving initiative could be the last big addition to VP Torpey's Village service resume if he is willing to take visionary ideas from others)
(FWIW, a cool state-of-the-art digital library cost-saving initiative could be the last big addition to VP Torpey's Village service resume if he is willing to take visionary ideas from others)
susan1014 said:
(FWIW, a cool state-of-the-art digital library cost-saving initiative could be the last big addition to VP Torpey's Village service resume if he is willing to take visionary ideas from others)
True, but he just may take it and publicize it as his own idea.
Let me expand on this idea a bit. It was just off the cuff but the most salient point is that the BOT should convene a planning meeting to discuss our inventory of buildings and what our needs are holistically. Our physical infrastructure is crumbling and I'm not convinced we truly need everything we have to serve our town of 16,000 people. Many of these buildings were built 100 to 150 years ago... The way work is done and municipalities are run now is so different than when most of these building were conceived and constructed. Do they really serve our purposes and our residents in the most efficient manner? This should at least be given some time to discuss at a macro level.
My specific (and very random) idea that I just threw out there at the meeting was converting Village Hall into the Library. Fully and completely. (I'm sure we'd still need SOPAC for meeting and such but I can't imagine we'd have to lease the space since we already own it!). Has this ever been considered or explored? The Library needs about 13 million in renovations. Village Hall needs 7 million. That's at least 20 but with change orders and overruns I wouldn't be shocked if that number moved up to 25 million or more. And we're not even talking about the Baird and Police Station and DPW Yard which need boatloads of money. If we keep bonding like that, not only will we never be able to chisel away at what are some of the highest property taxes in the country, but that number will continue to rise. All this bonding is like charging things to a credit card that you expect your children to finish paying off!
I assume that Village Hall has less square feet than the Library but I'm confident the Library could fit in Village Hall. Frankly, what are the main services these days? Access to technology (computers, internet, printers, copiers and new tech like the 3D printer), the children's room experience and programming, historical information and documentation, newspapers, magazines and periodicals and I'm sure a few other things I don't know.
Obviously, loaning out books is on that list but I don't believe it needs the physical space it currently has. Frankly, I went to borrow some books on furniture refinishing and such a while ago from our Library and they were all quite dated, from the 70s and 80s, I think. I haven't really thought of using our Library for reference books since.
I'd love to convert a big part of our book loaning service into a digital library. As part of the renovation, let's buy or otherwise acquire 500 e-readers to loan out to people who wouldn't be able to borrow from a digital library (or anyone who wants to borrow them, of course). I'm a book guy, I use to be a book publishing and I love physical books... While our Library should still strategically serve that market, we could greatly change how it's done without decreasing the services that are provided. Heck, with an expanded selection of books in a digital library to supplement the physical books that ARE available, the Library would be INCREASING its services. And if it had to spend less money physically renovating Village Hall than it would the Library and Connett Building, there'd be money to invest digitally.
Here's the great part... Yes, I support exploring the sale of Village Hall to a private investor. But you know what property would be MUCH MORE attractive to a developer? How about the entire city block taken up by the Library, Connett Building and parking lot? That would be a great spot for mixed use development and expanded public parking. The sale of that property could go DIRECTLY to the conversion of Village Hall into the Library. I'm sure it wouldn't cover the whole thing. But even then, if we're still left with a bill of 3 to 5 million dollars, that's a heck of a lot less money that the 20 to 25 million that's being discussed for those two properties. PLUS, we'd get long term tax revenue on the Library property which is not a revenue-generating property now. AND we'd have one less building we'd need to continue to maintain and build a robust deferred maintenance plan for (which we desperately need to start doing so we don't find ourselves in these types of situations again). The only way we start course-correcting our taxes is by making big, bold moves. Removing ourselves from the day to day and taking a thoughtful, big picture view of our buildings and our bonding is a HUGE piece of that. In fact, I'm not convinced you can meaningfully address our tax burden without doing so.
Village Hall use to be the Fire Department. And the Police Department. Why not the Library now? Can you think of any better municipal function in the heart of a downtown?
My specific (and very random) idea that I just threw out there at the meeting was converting Village Hall into the Library. Fully and completely. (I'm sure we'd still need SOPAC for meeting and such but I can't imagine we'd have to lease the space since we already own it!). Has this ever been considered or explored? The Library needs about 13 million in renovations. Village Hall needs 7 million. That's at least 20 but with change orders and overruns I wouldn't be shocked if that number moved up to 25 million or more. And we're not even talking about the Baird and Police Station and DPW Yard which need boatloads of money. If we keep bonding like that, not only will we never be able to chisel away at what are some of the highest property taxes in the country, but that number will continue to rise. All this bonding is like charging things to a credit card that you expect your children to finish paying off!
I assume that Village Hall has less square feet than the Library but I'm confident the Library could fit in Village Hall. Frankly, what are the main services these days? Access to technology (computers, internet, printers, copiers and new tech like the 3D printer), the children's room experience and programming, historical information and documentation, newspapers, magazines and periodicals and I'm sure a few other things I don't know.
Obviously, loaning out books is on that list but I don't believe it needs the physical space it currently has. Frankly, I went to borrow some books on furniture refinishing and such a while ago from our Library and they were all quite dated, from the 70s and 80s, I think. I haven't really thought of using our Library for reference books since.
I'd love to convert a big part of our book loaning service into a digital library. As part of the renovation, let's buy or otherwise acquire 500 e-readers to loan out to people who wouldn't be able to borrow from a digital library (or anyone who wants to borrow them, of course). I'm a book guy, I use to be a book publishing and I love physical books... While our Library should still strategically serve that market, we could greatly change how it's done without decreasing the services that are provided. Heck, with an expanded selection of books in a digital library to supplement the physical books that ARE available, the Library would be INCREASING its services. And if it had to spend less money physically renovating Village Hall than it would the Library and Connett Building, there'd be money to invest digitally.
Here's the great part... Yes, I support exploring the sale of Village Hall to a private investor. But you know what property would be MUCH MORE attractive to a developer? How about the entire city block taken up by the Library, Connett Building and parking lot? That would be a great spot for mixed use development and expanded public parking. The sale of that property could go DIRECTLY to the conversion of Village Hall into the Library. I'm sure it wouldn't cover the whole thing. But even then, if we're still left with a bill of 3 to 5 million dollars, that's a heck of a lot less money that the 20 to 25 million that's being discussed for those two properties. PLUS, we'd get long term tax revenue on the Library property which is not a revenue-generating property now. AND we'd have one less building we'd need to continue to maintain and build a robust deferred maintenance plan for (which we desperately need to start doing so we don't find ourselves in these types of situations again). The only way we start course-correcting our taxes is by making big, bold moves. Removing ourselves from the day to day and taking a thoughtful, big picture view of our buildings and our bonding is a HUGE piece of that. In fact, I'm not convinced you can meaningfully address our tax burden without doing so.
Village Hall use to be the Fire Department. And the Police Department. Why not the Library now? Can you think of any better municipal function in the heart of a downtown?
Jun 24, 2014 at 6:14am Edited
i suggested years ago that the library needed to be rethought, given the new digital age. My thinking back then was to convert the library to a state of the art children's library, which could be an area magnet. Partner with Seton Hall for the adult needs. I proposed this and created a groundswell of opposition. The status quo was preferred. I am glad that today, people are more open to some new ways of thinking.
Having said that, it should be the job of the Library head to craft these visions, and "sell" them. And what about the Library board? Doesn't Torpey sit on that? I never see any minutes from their meetings.
Fishy is right when he says we have to examine all of the villages properties. We know the PD building needs millions (or a merger with Maplewood). The Connett building is a total mess. (A few years ago a private citizen offered to take shepherding the rehab of that, but the Library would have none of it.) The Skatehouse is decrepit. And as for the DPW site, one visit says it all. And of course, none of this speaks to the needs of our school buildings.
We should not even be talking about a Village Hall renovation given the money it will take. I hope the sale or conveyance to an outside party will happen. I have no expectation that the village can even manage a project like this. Time to bid the building good-bye. Its fate was decided decades ago when no one in government said we have to maintain this place. All eyes then were focused on SOPAC, which, since the village now owns it, will require a maintenance plan of its own.
Having said that, it should be the job of the Library head to craft these visions, and "sell" them. And what about the Library board? Doesn't Torpey sit on that? I never see any minutes from their meetings.
Fishy is right when he says we have to examine all of the villages properties. We know the PD building needs millions (or a merger with Maplewood). The Connett building is a total mess. (A few years ago a private citizen offered to take shepherding the rehab of that, but the Library would have none of it.) The Skatehouse is decrepit. And as for the DPW site, one visit says it all. And of course, none of this speaks to the needs of our school buildings.
We should not even be talking about a Village Hall renovation given the money it will take. I hope the sale or conveyance to an outside party will happen. I have no expectation that the village can even manage a project like this. Time to bid the building good-bye. Its fate was decided decades ago when no one in government said we have to maintain this place. All eyes then were focused on SOPAC, which, since the village now owns it, will require a maintenance plan of its own.
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