Tillerson out.

DaveSchmidt said:

BCC said:

And just how long would those effective techniques take. The ones I know of require taking the time to gain the perps trust and time was something they didn't have.

Specifically, the waterboarding that has been confirmed while Haspel ran the black site in Thailand occurred in December 2002, 15 months after the Sept. 11 attacks.

So what? We haven't been discussing Haspel for some time What we have been discussing is morality, the water boarding after 9/11, and should we or should we not have used it.

In fact at some later date water boarding is claimed to have been successful

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cia-confirms-waterboarding-911-mastermind-led-info-aborted-911-style-attack-los-angeles

ridski said:

BCC said:

 Would you or anyone else have sat back and waited?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

' BCC said:

'And just how long would those effective techniques take. The ones I know of require taking the time to gain the perps trust and time was something they didn't have.'

What other techniques that you know of would get a response that wouldn't take time, time which those expecting a possible attack didn't have?

As I pointed out above water boarding is said to have worked.worked

Dave23s comment 'Almost everyone answered the question, including me. (Use interrogation techniques that *work*.)' is simply BS. The only ones I can find offering that suggestion were he and Steve and I asked Steve the same question posted above.

Other than that I still love you.

BCC said:

What other techniques that you know of would get a response that wouldn't take time, time which those expecting a possible attack didn't have?Do

Do you support Haspel's nomination?

I think this has been about beaten to death and will leave it at that.

I have no doubt nohero will try to find some way to prove she didn't insult me and dave23 will continue to bait me. I can live with that

BCC said:

DaveSchmidt said:

BCC said:

And just how long would those effective techniques take. The ones I know of require taking the time to gain the perps trust and time was something they didn't have.

Specifically, the waterboarding that has been confirmed while Haspel ran the black site in Thailand occurred in December 2002, 15 months after the Sept. 11 attacks.

So what?

You raised the matter of immediacy. I thought participants and other readers of this discussion might find a reminder of the timing of Haspel’s connection to waterboarding informative. You didn’t. So noted.

ridski said:

BCC said:

What other techniques that you know of would get a response that wouldn't take time, time which those expecting a possible attack didn't have?Do

Do you support Haspel's nomination?

Yes

Even without the strong support she has received from top Intel people in both parties you judge an individual based on the entirety of their lives.

MLK was a philanderer. Was he a great man? Absolutely

ETA added comment to correct timing

BCC said:

DaveSchmidt said:

BCC said:

DaveSchmidt said:

BCC said:

And just how long would those effective techniques take. The ones I know of require taking the time to gain the perps trust and time was something they didn't have.

Specifically, the waterboarding that has been confirmed while Haspel ran the black site in Thailand occurred in December 2002, 15 months after the Sept. 11 attacks.

So what?

You raised the matter of immediacy. I thought participants and other readers of this discussion might find a reminder of the timing of Haspel’s connection to waterboarding informative. You didn’t. So noted.

Read above It was posted one minute after you.

My words fly up, my thoughts remain below. Words without thoughts never to heaven go.

DaveSchmidt said:

My words fly up, my thoughts remain below. Words without thoughts never to heaven go.

My thoughts are expressed in my words.

If you don't understand that I'm afraid I can't help you.

Maybe I should have boldfaced “my,” too. In any case, it was a lot cleverer when both of your directionals could be seen.

BCC said:

Do you support Haspel's nomination?

Yes

Good. That's the question dave23 asked you on Monday, BTW.

DaveSchmidt said:

My words fly up, my thoughts remain below. Words without thoughts never to heaven go.

I had to look it up, but I'm glad I did.

BCC said:

nohero said:

BCC said:

nohero said:

By the way, when you shift from your normal "objective" tone to the more insulting one, that's your "tell" that you've run out of arguments and are backed into a corner.

My 'tell' is that my objective tone changes when someone calls me stupid, as you did.

Or are you so dense you don't even know you did that.

To be precise, my comment was that a statement was stupid, as one alternative.

To b precise the alternative was to be misleading.

To be precise that is one lame excuse and you are now trying to bull***t your way out.

How does it feel to be in the corner?

Yes, an alternative was that a statement was misleading.

Either way, they are not as described by you.

And, since this is a message board, neither you nor I are the final arbiter of what the reader can see was actually written.

To conclude, I'm not in a corner.

BCC said:

DaveSchmidt said:
 
Specifically, the waterboarding that has been confirmed while Haspel ran the black site in Thailand occurred in December 2002, 15 months after the Sept. 11 attacks.

So what? We haven't been discussing Haspel for some time What we have been discussing is morality, the water boarding after 9/11, and should we or should we not have used it.

BCC said:

ridski said:

Do you support Haspel's nomination?

Yes

Even without the strong support she has received from top Intel people in both parties you judge an individual based on the entirety of their lives.

MLK was a philanderer. Was he a great man? Absolutely

See, we are still discussing the current nominee for CIA director.  And we're definitely not going to start discussing Dr. King or anyone else not related to that topic.  IMHO.

BCC said:

I think this has been about beaten to death and will leave it at that.

No, it hasn't. You never answered the question. It's easier to type "yes" or "no" than it is to type "I think this has been about beaten to death and will leave it at that."

ETA: You answered it! Great. Comparing MLK and his philandering to torture advocacy is a bit dark, but well done.

Your claim that the waterboarding led to actionable intelligence that prevented the LA terror attacks is questionable at best.  CNSNews (a questionable source to begin with) was merely repeating a CIA claim.  Would you really expect the CIA to claim that its violations of international law were fruitless?  I think not.

Next, you completely ignore that Haspel was involved in the intentional destruction of the torture tapes.  That, alone, is sufficient to warrant denying her the top spot at the CIA.

With regard to whether or not the torture was engaged in, one can always claim the exigencies of time "made me do it."  Well, that really doesn't fly.  The torture did not happen in the smoldering ruins of the WTC.  The torture only began in the months after 9/11 and on innocent individuals.  

because torture isn't effective as an interrogation technique, it's clear that its purpose is to terrorize the population.  Why do totalitarian regimes nearly all engage in torture of dissidents?  To intimidate and silence the citizens.  To terrorize them.

Our torture regime was meant to be a means of terror, intimidation and brutality.

For BCC:

Read the story below and bear in mind that B-17 crews weren't exactly popular in Germany in 1943. Note what Stigler's CO said:

“If I ever see or hear of you shooting at a man in a parachute,” Roedel said, “I will shoot you down myself. You follow the rules of war for you — not for your enemy. You fight by rules to keep your humanity.”

I would argue that the same logic applies to us accepting the use of torture.

https://nypost.com/2012/12/09/amazing-tale-of-a-desperate-wwii-pilots-encounter-with-a-german-flying-ace/

tjohn said:

For BCC:

Read the story below and bear in mind that B-17 crews weren't exactly popular in Germany in 1943. Note what Stigler's CO said:

“If I ever see or hear of you shooting at a man in a parachute,” Roedel said, “I will shoot you down myself. You follow the rules of war for you — not for your enemy. You fight by rules to keep your humanity.”

I would argue that the same logic applies to us accepting the use of torture.

https://nypost.com/2012/12/09/amazing-tale-of-a-desperate-wwii-pilots-encounter-with-a-german-flying-ace/

All well and good but  our rules of engagement at that time permitted water boarding.

nohero said:

BCC said:

nohero said:

BCC said:

nohero said:

By the way, when you shift from your normal "objective" tone to the more insulting one, that's your "tell" that you've run out of arguments and are backed into a corner.

My 'tell' is that my objective tone changes when someone calls me stupid, as you did.

Or are you so dense you don't even know you did that.

To be precise, my comment was that a statement was stupid, as one alternative.

To b precise the alternative was to be misleading.

To be precise that is one lame excuse and you are now trying to bull***t your way out.

How does it feel to be in the corner?

Yes, an alternative was that a statement was misleading.

Either way, they are not as described by you.

And, since this is a message board, neither you nor I are the final arbiter of what the reader can see was actually written.

To conclude, I'm not in a corner.

Yes and let us see if we can find a sentient human being, reading what you wrote, calling me stupid or misleading, does not call it insulting.

ridski said:

BCC said:

Do you support Haspel's nomination?

Yes

Good. That's the question dave23 asked you on Monday, BTW.

I believe my position on Haspel was pretty clear to everyone else

You may have also noticed I no longer respond to dave 23.

BCC said:



Yes and let us see if we can find a sentient human being, reading what you wrote, calling me stupid or misleading, does not call it insulting.

it was insulting.  but it was also accurate regarding what you wrote.  so on balance, I'd say it was fair.

BCC said:

tjohn said:

For BCC:

Read the story below and bear in mind that B-17 crews weren't exactly popular in Germany in 1943. Note what Stigler's CO said:

“If I ever see or hear of you shooting at a man in a parachute,” Roedel said, “I will shoot you down myself. You follow the rules of war for you — not for your enemy. You fight by rules to keep your humanity.”

I would argue that the same logic applies to us accepting the use of torture.

https://nypost.com/2012/12/09/amazing-tale-of-a-desperate-wwii-pilots-encounter-with-a-german-flying-ace/

All well and good but  our rules of engagement at that time permitted water boarding.

You seemed to have missed the point that any human being with their own moral compass in the late 20th Century and beyond would recognize water-boarding for what it is - torture.  And, of course, the other point is that if we let ourselves become monsters in pursuit of victory, we need to understand that it is irreversible.  That is why there needs to be a very high barrier to allowing torture and torture to prevent an attack that costs tens or hundreds of lives is not justified.

tjohn said:

BCC said:

tjohn said:

For BCC:

Read the story below and bear in mind that B-17 crews weren't exactly popular in Germany in 1943. Note what Stigler's CO said:

“If I ever see or hear of you shooting at a man in a parachute,” Roedel said, “I will shoot you down myself. You follow the rules of war for you — not for your enemy. You fight by rules to keep your humanity.”

I would argue that the same logic applies to us accepting the use of torture.

https://nypost.com/2012/12/09/amazing-tale-of-a-desperate-wwii-pilots-encounter-with-a-german-flying-ace/

All well and good but  our rules of engagement at that time permitted water boarding.

You seemed to have missed the point that any human being with their own moral compass in the late 20th Century and beyond would recognize water-boarding for what it is - torture.  And, of course, the other point is that if we let ourselves become monsters in pursuit of victory, we need to understand that it is irreversible.  That is why there needs to be a very high barrier to allowing torture and torture to prevent an attack that costs tens or hundreds of lives is not justified.

'You follow the rules of war for you — not for your enemy' It is hardly irreversible. Bush did away with it in 06 or 07.

Frankly, the further into this I go the more certain I am that people. including myself, take a position and stay with it.

No, the point is that for individuals, if you do certain things (e.g. torture, etc.) it haunts you forever.  That is what Stigler's CO meant about the rules of war.  Our government, of course, has been monstrous for some time and many of us are complicit.

You, too, are evidently a monster for not understanding that waterboarding is torture whether authorized or not.

Red_Barchetta said:

BCC said:

tjohn said:

As I suspected, it seems like it depends on what the meaning of is is.

No, it depends on what the DOJ and the CIA lawyer say what is is.

As with every other lawyer on the planet, those lawyers say whatever they are paid to say. 

I pause in reading this thread to say that there are many many lawyers who could not be paid to justify torture.

tjohn said:

No, the point is that for individuals, if you do certain things (e.g. torture, etc.) it haunts you forever.  That is what Stigler's CO meant about the rules of war.  Our government, of course, has been monstrous for some time and many of us are complicit.

You, too, are evidently a monster for not understanding that waterboarding is torture whether authorized or not.

this attitude means that we can do anything we want as long as the government "authorizes" it.  It's an attitude that takes us through the looking glass.  It's frankly an absurd notion that giving something a new label changes the essence of the underlying concept.  Saying that waterboarding isn't torture doesn't change the essential fact that waterboarding is indeed torture. Anyone who suggests otherwise might want to reconsider their own humanity.  

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

Not much point in carrying a conversation with some one who is always right.