The Korean Summit thread - The post-summit NK nuclear expansion edition.

terp said:

ml1 said:
apparently we liberals are just being too unfair to Trump.  I guess we should praise him for the words that came out of his mouth regarding North Korea, because it's a great thing even if he hasn't done anything yet.  But we shouldn't be bothered by what he has said about trade with Canada or the EU, because those are just words, and we should wait to 

Please.  You guys would be fawning with praise if these exact same events happened 2 years ago. 

 but it didn't and it wouldn't have.

and I should also add that I was very critical here of Obama's foreign policy, his surveillance regime and wars.  

So there's no basis for that accusation.

dave23 said:

Smedley said:

So not to sound all sappy and idealistic here, but I do think the world is a little better place now than it was 24 hours ago. I enjoyed watching the news coverage last night and at least temporarily, I felt good about our country, our political system, and yes even our president.

I'm all for diplomacy, but that's not what I saw. I saw snuggling up to a brutal dictator by a president not even remotely capable of understanding the complexity of the issue and not even remotely focused enough to maintain the work required to get a truly good deal done. (He thinks it's more about "attitude" than preparation, after all.)
And if you think the world is a better place after POTUS shunts our traditional allies aside in a fit of pique before pivoting to embrace a murderous dictator, then we certainly see things differently. If you think that's "us vs. them," then so be it.

 I agree the cozying up to a brutal dictator by DJT is nauseating.   A recent Washington Examiner article (linked below) analyzes the meeting and concludes that DJT made many of the same errors that that FDR made with Stalin.  See https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/by-cozying-up-to-kim-jong-un-trump-makes-the-same-mistakes-fdr-did-with-stalin

A very insightful article.  My stance is:  i.) less cozying with KJU; and ii.) more substantive negotiating.

RealityForAll said:

 I agree the cozying up to a brutal dictator by DJT is nauseating.   A recent Washington Examiner article (linked below) analyzes the meeting and concludes that DJT made many of the same errors that that FDR made with Stalin.  See https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/by-cozying-up-to-kim-jong-un-trump-makes-the-same-mistakes-fdr-did-with-stalin
A very insightful article.  My stance is:  i.) less cozying with KJU; and ii.) more substantive negotiating.

Trump actively admires these dictators and thugs while attacking our democratic allies. True conservatives and libertarians would understand that a single meeting purportedly about peace should not be viewed in isolation. I understand realpolitik--sometimes we have to hold our noses and get purely practical. But Trump doesn't have the intelligence, focus or interest to truly lead a drive toward peace. (If he did, he would not have dismantled the Iran deal.)

And he's a terrible negotiator. 

ml1 said:
and I should also add that I was very critical here of Obama's foreign policy, his surveillance regime and wars.  
So there's no basis for that accusation.

 Very Critical?  I remember you begrudgingly saying that you disagreed with some of the foreign policy.  Let me ask you this:  Did you vote for Hillary in the Primary or the General Election?  If you did, then you don't really care about this stuff.  Any mild criticism of your  team is just virtue signalling.   When push comes to shove, you are ready to pull that lever for someone you know will murder innocent people as a matter of course. 

dave23 said:
Trump actively admires these dictators and thugs while attacking our democratic allies. True conservatives and libertarians would understand that a single meeting purportedly about peace should not be viewed in isolation. I understand realpolitik--sometimes we have to hold our noses and get purely practical. But Trump doesn't have the intelligence, focus or interest to truly lead a drive toward peace. (If he did, he would not have dismantled the Iran deal.)
And he's a terrible negotiator. 

 Totally.  Either that or you just hate him.  

terp said:

ml1 said:
and I should also add that I was very critical here of Obama's foreign policy, his surveillance regime and wars.  
So there's no basis for that accusation.

 Very Critical?  I remember you begrudgingly saying that you disagreed with some of the foreign policy.  Let me ask you this:  Did you vote for Hillary in the Primary or the General Election?  If you did, then you don't really care about this stuff.  Any mild criticism of your  team is just virtue signalling.   When push comes to shove, you are ready to pull that lever for someone you know will murder innocent people as a matter of course. 

 I voted for the lesser of two evils in the hope that the greater of any two evils would not become President. 

If you didn't.... well then all of this is on you. Good to know who to blame.

Ah.... the fetid stench of moral bankruptcy.

Klinker said:
Ah.... the fetid stench of moral bankruptcy.

I don't know where you are, but I'd recommend using some glade. 

I assume all the folks on here who believe the NK summit was nada, or a win for KJU and a loss for DJT, are shopping for a new candidate to back in 2020 since Bernie Sanders called the summit a positive step. 

By being taken in, fooled and suckered by the con of Donald Trump, Sanders has demonstrated inexcusably poor judgment and clearly is not fit to be President. 

Jaysus walks among us in the embodiment of Pres Trump. 

terp said:

ml1 said:
and I should also add that I was very critical here of Obama's foreign policy, his surveillance regime and wars.  
So there's no basis for that accusation.

 Very Critical?  I remember you begrudgingly saying that you disagreed with some of the foreign policy.  Let me ask you this:  Did you vote for Hillary in the Primary or the General Election?  If you did, then you don't really care about this stuff.  Any mild criticism of your  team is just virtue signalling.   When push comes to shove, you are ready to pull that lever for someone you know will murder innocent people as a matter of course. 

for a guy who is very sensitive about being "attacked" on this board, you have a tendency toward being gratuitously insulting.  Given that we don't know each other beyond this board, you also have a tendency to think you know what is in my head.  I'll just say that a lot of what you posted is incorrect and leave it at that.

I guess it's safe to say you were a Hillary supporter.

given that I was choosing between two people who were the only ones who were going to be elected, yes.  And I think it's kind of funny that you choose to accuse me of "virtue signaling."  That's kind of how I view people who make a big show of refusing to participate in our two-party electoral system.  Yes, it's broken in a lot of ways, and we often get two candidates who are both very flawed.  But that's the world we live in, and pragmatically, I don't think it's a good choice to sit it out.  I think it leads to worse outcomes than yes, choosing the lesser of two evils. But that's just me, and I prefer to respect others' choices in these matters if I think they're making them in good faith.

Smedley said:
I assume all the folks on here who believe the NK summit was nada, or a win for KJU and a loss for DJT, are shopping for a new candidate to back in 2020 since Bernie Sanders called the summit a positive step. 
By being taken in, fooled and suckered by the con of Donald Trump, Sanders has demonstrated inexcusably poor judgment and clearly is not fit to be President. 

The best that any rational person can say is that the meeting was a positive first step.  Of course, Trump being a reality T.V. kind of guy, will be happy to declare a great win and move on to the next photo op.

What is most bizarre is that in the same week, Trump can heap praise upon Kim Jong Un while calling the PM of our neighbor and close friend deceitful.  Anybody who can rationalize that behavior does not live on the same planet I do.

ml1 said:
given that I was choosing between two people who were the only ones who were going to be elected, yes.  And I think it's kind of funny that you choose to accuse me of "virtue signaling."  That's kind of how I view people who make a big show of refusing to participate in our two-party electoral system.  Yes, it's broken in a lot of ways, and we often get two candidates who are both very flawed.  But that's the world we live in, and pragmatically, I don't think it's a good choice to sit it out.  I think it leads to worse outcomes than yes, choosing the lesser of two evils. But that's just me, and I prefer to respect others' choices in these matters if I think they're making them in good faith.

 People show their true colors with their actions.  Anyone can say that they are against certain aspects of our foreign policy.  It strikes me as an empty gesture when their actions indicate otherwise.  When those people who make those claims support candidates, media outlets, and other mechanisms that perpetuate this stuff, it comes across as a bit of an empty gesture.  Especially, when they're so derisive of those who don't support these things. 

Yeah, I have written off the 2 party system at the Federal Level. That is true. I don't see any solutions to be found there.  I will not support a system that is essentially evil.  However, in other ways I put my $$ and time where my mouth is.  So, that's where you and I will part ways.  

The sad thing about America right now isn't Trump.  It's the fact that his opposition isn't questioning the model where we have a popularity contest every 4 years to elect someone to a hyper-powerful position befitting of a monarch.  

No, his opposition can't wait to get their guy/gal in there and have them wield at least that much power. 

tjohn said:

Smedley said:
I assume all the folks on here who believe the NK summit was nada, or a win for KJU and a loss for DJT, are shopping for a new candidate to back in 2020 since Bernie Sanders called the summit a positive step. 
By being taken in, fooled and suckered by the con of Donald Trump, Sanders has demonstrated inexcusably poor judgment and clearly is not fit to be President. 

The best that any rational person can say is that the meeting was a positive first step.  Of course, Trump being a reality T.V. kind of guy, will be happy to declare a great win and move on to the next photo op.
What is most bizarre is that in the same week, Trump can heap praise upon Kim Jong Un while calling the PM of our neighbor and close friend deceitful.  Anybody who can rationalize that behavior does not live on the same planet I do.

 I don't get the Canada bit either. That's definitely the jack--- Trump who alienates people. But I guess that's the 'America First' stuff that serves him politically by firing up the idiotic MAGA base. Scaramucci -- who I generally find a reasonable person, at least by comparison to others in the administration -- referred to Trump's words to Trudeau as 'banter'. Give me a break, that was more invective than it was banter (which I said on Twitter). 

But I disagree with the "heap praise' characterization that you and others make in reference to the Summit. I think it has been measured niceties rather than "heaped praise". And beyond that distinction, what should Trump have said before and during negotiations, where the US is asking for something? I guess he could have said at the press briefing "well it wasn't really nice to meet Kim Jong Un. He's a brutal dictator who has starved his people and really is a guy with no redeeming qualities. Now please excuse us while I go ask this total despot to please denuclearize the Korean Peninsula." And of course he would have said similar stuff in the lead-up to the Summit. 

I guess that would satisfy the MOL critics, but it doesn't strike me as a particularly good way to negotiate.        

But the point is that your system isn't the equivalent of a monarchy in any sense. The power is shared by, and is answerable to, the populace. 

ICYMI.

Reporters Thought This Video Was North Korea Propaganda. It Came From the White House. (WaPo)

terp said:

Yeah, I have written off the 2 party system at the Federal Level. That is true. I don't see any solutions to be found there.  I will not support a system that is essentially evil.  However, in other ways I put my $$ and time where my mouth is.  So, that's where you and I will part ways.  

 again, you make assumptions about what I do with my time and money.  And of course you assume the worst.

You may want to ask yourself why you make the automatic assumption that everyone else is morally inferior to you.

PVW said:
My prediction -- both Trump and Kim are just looking for a propaganda victory. They'll come away from the meeting touting some sort of agreement. Neither will have any intention of following through in good faith. Both will sell it to their respective domestic audiences as a great victory. The regime media channels will go on and on about how amazing and patriotic and historic it is, and the brainwashed supporters will cheer themselves into a frenzy. The North Korean media will do likewise. But nothing of substance toward making the world safer will actually be accomplished.

 There is no need for me to read the rest of this thread. You are truly a seer.   

ml1 said:

terp said:

Yeah, I have written off the 2 party system at the Federal Level. That is true. I don't see any solutions to be found there.  I will not support a system that is essentially evil.  However, in other ways I put my $$ and time where my mouth is.  So, that's where you and I will part ways.  

 again, you make assumptions about what I do with my time and money.  And of course you assume the worst.
You may want to ask yourself why you make the automatic assumption that everyone else is morally inferior to you.

 Not making any assumptions.  That was more talking the point about choosing the lesser of 2 evils.   It seems that's always the choice.  When given the opportunity to choose "Not Evil" I will vote.  I didn't mean to infer that you or others do not put $$ and time where your mouth is.  It's just that this is the way I deal with the current system.  To me, voting at the Federal Level is a waste of time. 

DaveSchmidt said:
ICYMI.

Reporters Thought This Video Was North Korea Propaganda. It Came From the White House. (WaPo)

"I thought Kim was being pitched a timeshare watching that thing."

https://twitter.com/Zathras3/status/1007229050472058880

terp,

What do you suggest?

Or to quote Lenin,

"What is to be done"?

Without telling S. Korea, Japan or the US armed forces, Trump simply declared the end of war games.  WTF?  Let's just not have any allies, trading or otherwise.  That sounds smart.   If Mueller was not about to kick Trump in the face, I might be concerned.

dave said:
Without telling S. Korea, Japan or the US armed forces, Trump simply declared the end of war games.  WTF?  Let's just not have any allies, trading or otherwise.  That sounds smart.   If Mueller was not about to kick Trump in the face, I might be concerned.

 Be concerned. 

dave said:
Without telling S. Korea, Japan or the US armed forces, Trump simply declared the end of war games.  WTF?  Let's just not have any allies, trading or otherwise.  That sounds smart.   If Mueller was not about to kick Trump in the face, I might be concerned.

 I heard the price of champagne in skyrocketing in China due to celebrations of Trump's actions.

terp said:
 People show their true colors with their actions.  Anyone can say that they are against certain aspects of our foreign policy.  It strikes me as an empty gesture when their actions indicate otherwise.  When those people who make those claims support candidates, media outlets, and other mechanisms that perpetuate this stuff, it comes across as a bit of an empty gesture.  Especially, when they're so derisive of those who don't support these things. 
Yeah, I have written off the 2 party system at the Federal Level. That is true. I don't see any solutions to be found there.  I will not support a system that is essentially evil.  However, in other ways I put my $$ and time where my mouth is.  So, that's where you and I will part ways.  

 High minded values are all fine and well but voting in such a way that the keys to nuclear armageddon are handed to a deranged narcissistic 70 year old infant is utterly immoral.

Klinker said:
 High minded values are all fine and well but voting in such a way that the keys to nuclear armageddon are handed to a deranged narcissistic 70 year old infant is utterly immoral.

They were handed over many years ago, before Trump.

Trump's cleverness was in getting Americans so worked up over this "existential" threat. Then he comes in as the GREAT negotiator and, lo and behold, the threat is gone. Our great savior.

Donald Trump declared that North Korea was no longer a nuclear threat as he arrived back in the US after his historic summit with the country’s leader Kim Jong Un in Singapore.

With NK's new reactor, NK's the extraction and purification of weapons grade material will increase by a factor of 5. Five times as fast in the manufacture of his WMD's.

Some dotards argue that destroying his nuclear test site shows us he wants to denuclearize. Not really. Having tested and having found how to successfully manufacture he no longer has a need for the site.