Thanks to SOMS students who said no to Paul Ryan

it's really not much of an exaggeration that if you are poor, sick or disabled, Ayn Rand disciple Paul Ryan thinks you should **** off and die. 

That's the real and very dangerous hatred. From a man with real power. 

Given the current tone of our political discourse, I think the students behaved perfectly. Contrast it to Trump's Memorial Day message from two years ago. Who is modeling appropriate behavior?

"a truly happy and enjoyable Memorial Day"?  Does Trump even know this is supposed to be a solemn observance, not a merry celebration?  what an asshat.

Ivanka's take on Memorial day from today:

https://ivankatrump.com/mdw-me...

Odds are that the kids who refused to have their picture taken have no idea what Ryan's preferred policies are, and how those policies will affect their lives.  These kids have, by and large, lived a sheltered existence. They are fully supported and have never had to work to support themselves or others. 

I'm pretty sure these kids have not critically thought through the issues and came to the conclusion that they just couldn't bear to be in the same photo as Paul Ryan.  The fact of the matter is that they have probably heard their parents, their neighbors, and their friends parroting stuff like you read below.   

If there is one thing these kids have shown is that they have been indoctrinated.  It's that simple.  

If my kid was one of those that refused to have their picture taken with a person like this then I would be asking him why.  This would be true for someone I really don't like.  

My kids are bright.  But, at that age we should not expect them to be able to navigate this stuff.  They just don't have the experience or the understanding in order to do so.  

ml1 said:

it's really not much of an exaggeration that if you are poor, sick or disabled, Ayn Rand disciple Paul Ryan thinks you should **** off and die. 

That's the real and very dangerous hatred. From a man with real power. 

This poster doesn't know anything about these students, but has reached a conclusion about what they know, and what they were thinking.  It doesn't seem that the poster even bothered to read one of the news reports about what the students actually said.  Despite that, there is a lot of assuming about them, the school, their parents, the friends of their parents, and it's all indoctrination (according to this poster).

Seems not to be based on any facts, just preconceived notions on the part of the poster.

terp said:

Odds are that the kids who refused to have their picture taken have no idea what Ryan's preferred policies are, and how those policies will affect their lives.  These kids have, by and large, lived a sheltered existence. They are fully supported and have never had to work to support themselves or others. 

I'm pretty sure these kids have not critically thought through the issues and came to the conclusion that they just couldn't bear to be in the same photo as Paul Ryan.  The fact of the matter is that they have probably heard their parents, their neighbors, and their friends parroting stuff like you read below.   

If there is one thing these kids have shown is that they have been indoctrinated.  It's that simple.  

If my kid was one of those that refused to have their picture taken with a person like this then I would be asking him why.  This would be true for someone I really don't like.  

My kids are bright.  But, at that age we should not expect them to be able to navigate this stuff.  They just don't have the experience or the understanding in order to do so.  

ml1 said:

it's really not much of an exaggeration that if you are poor, sick or disabled, Ayn Rand disciple Paul Ryan thinks you should **** off and die. 

That's the real and very dangerous hatred. From a man with real power. 

This is a gross misunderstanding about what an 8th grade knows and is able to process. Do you think that those who voted for this crew had critically thought through issues? Give me a break.

terp,

I disagree. A 13 year old can read and follow the news. She can read books and form opinions.

If your position was completely correct then why would these children have been taken on a trip to DC to begin with? Was it a form of indoctrination. Something led a group of them to make the choice they did. Their parents were not with them.

Where they influenced by their parents? Of course, but when we teach our children or show them by example is that indoctrination?

Worth re-posting:

flimbro said:

My daughter was one of the students who declined to take a picture with Ryan because she does understand how a democracy works and she pays attention to everything her government does. That includes recognizing a spineless speaker of the house who backs a president who does not have her best interests at heart. When she got home I hugged her and told her I was proud of her as I am every single time she stands up for herself and points out hypocrisy, hatred and challenges the status quo.

Several months ago, I asked an MOL poster what gave him hope for America. He said the kids.

I have no idea how much critical thought or research each of the students put into the decision to appear or not appear with Ryan. If the parents are like me, they don't always do a perfect job of hiding their own leanings when questioning their children, or of resisting the temptation to call attention to their offspring as reflections of their own ideals.

Either way, what strikes me is the 50/50 split. There was no herd. Every kid made a choice.

That poster's words are ringing true.

A lot of parents do lead their kids (my son was the only Trump voter in his kindergarten class...because Donald is like McDonalds and he likes the indoor playground). By 8th grade though? I think some of you are giving parents too much credit. My parents had less influence over me at 13 than they did at 23.  

It's probable that the students who refused the handshake were a bit more attuned to who and what Ryan represents. I don't know that those who offered their handshake necessarily demonstrated a political viewpoint at that very moment. "Hey, here's some guy we see in the media (famous) who's trying to take a picture with us" is the more likely scenario.

I'm very heartened to see this story and the responses to it. I've left the area, but I'm glad to be associated with it and see some familiar names in the story. There is something special about 8th graders, especially these.

South_Mountaineer said:

This poster doesn't know anything about these students, but has reached a conclusion about what they know, and what they were thinking.  It doesn't seem that the poster even bothered to read one of the news reports about what the students actually said.  Despite that, there is a lot of assuming about them, the school, their parents, the friends of their parents, and it's all indoctrination (according to this poster).

Seems not to be based on any facts, just preconceived notions on the part of the poster.

If you are saying that I don't know each of them personally, I would agree with you.  But to say I know nothing about them is incorrect. 

Here's what I know about the (by and large):

• They are in Middle School
• They have never really worked a day in their life
• They have not ever tried to start a business
• Their lives are fully supported by others
• From speaking with educators, by and large, children of this age do not have the mental ability to logically induce a trend based on an action in a complex system
• It is very likely their parents, their teachers, their friends, and the media they consume express a strong dislike for Paul Ryan & Donald Trump(See what is implied in annielou's post below)

annielou said:

It's probable that the students who refused the handshake were a bit more attuned to who and what Ryan represents. I don't know that those who offered their handshake necessarily demonstrated a political viewpoint at that very moment. "Hey, here's some guy we see in the media (famous) who's trying to take a picture with us" is the more likely scenario.

I never said they can't form opinions.  People have lots and lots of opinions. They feel certain ways.  It's not the quantity that concerns me. It's the quality.  

Of course, there is a form of indoctrination.  Have you ever been to DC?  It is a series of monuments that represent the mythos of the Federal Government.  

Again, if you want to applaud these kids for something applaud them for adhering to the doctrine of your herd.  Perhaps this is a right of passage. 

LOST said:

terp,

I disagree. A 13 year old can read and follow the news. She can read books and form opinions.

If your position was completely correct then why would these children have been taken on a trip to DC to begin with? Was it a form of indoctrination. Something led a group of them to make the choice they did. Their parents were not with them.

Where they influenced by their parents? Of course, but when we teach our children or show them by example is that indoctrination?

Thanks for re-posting.  This is clearly indoctrination by a parent.   She receives love for a rebellious act she is likely not capable of understanding.  What could be more clear?  

LOST said:

Worth re-posting:

flimbro said:

My daughter was one of the students who declined to take a picture with Ryan because she does understand how a democracy works and she pays attention to everything her government does. That includes recognizing a spineless speaker of the house who backs a president who does not have her best interests at heart. When she got home I hugged her and told her I was proud of her as I am every single time she stands up for herself and points out hypocrisy, hatred and challenges the status quo.

Whether you're a liberal or a conservative, it's obvious that Ryan is a spineless ******* that puts himself and his party before his country or even his own ideology. Any 13 year old can see that. 

Thank you for more fodder   

ridski said:

Whether you're a liberal or a conservative, it's obvious that Ryan is a spineless ******* that puts himself and his party before his country or even his own ideology. Any 13 year old can see that. 

in some quarters "indoctrinating" is also known as teaching.  Of course we share with our kids our values, whether it be religion, ethics, patriotism, politics or whether to root for the Mets or the Yankees.  Some of what we teach they internalize, and some parts they reject.  By middle school most of them have their own ideas about how much of what we teach them they want to retain for themselves.  

terp said:

Thank you for more fodder   

ridski said:

Whether you're a liberal or a conservative, it's obvious that Ryan is a spineless ******* that puts himself and his party before his country or even his own ideology. Any 13 year old can see that. 

Please continue. Show me where Speaker Ryan has stood up for conservative or libertarian principles against the gormless man baby we currently have sitting in office? 

Yes.  Yes.  By the 8th grade.  Magically. 

ml1 said:

in some quarters "indoctrinating" is also known as teaching.  Of course we share with our kids our values, whether it be religion, ethics, patriotism, politics or whether to root for the Mets or the Yankees.  Some of what we teach they internalize, and some parts they reject.  By middle school most of them have their own ideas about how much of what we teach them they want to retain for themselves.  

This really isn't about Speaker Ryan.  I don't like Speaker Ryan either.  The point is, if my 8th grade child came back from DC and said he refused to have his photo taken with the speaker of the house, I would be asking him why. And I'd be very interested in the reasoning.

Thanks again for more fodder!   

ridski said:

terp said:

Thank you for more fodder   

ridski said:

Whether you're a liberal or a conservative, it's obvious that Ryan is a spineless ******* that puts himself and his party before his country or even his own ideology. Any 13 year old can see that. 

Please continue. Show me where Speaker Ryan has stood up for conservative or libertarian principles against the gormless man baby we currently have sitting in office? 

jersey_boy said:

Opting out of a photograph is not really disrespectful and certainly isn't "hateful." (I've read those words on other sites.)

Being politically aware in 8th grade, during a D.C. trip intended to teach civics, and expressing yourself along the way is basically the defintion of a successful civics lesson.

Two perfect sentences. 

terp said:

Yes.  Yes.  By the 8th grade.  Magically. 

ml1 said:

in some quarters "indoctrinating" is also known as teaching.  Of course we share with our kids our values, whether it be religion, ethics, patriotism, politics or whether to root for the Mets or the Yankees.  Some of what we teach they internalize, and some parts they reject.  By middle school most of them have their own ideas about how much of what we teach them they want to retain for themselves.  

well look on the bright side.  Half the SOMA kids defied their liberal indoctrination from parents, teachers and media and posed for a photo with liberal bogeyman Paul Ryan.

terp said:

Odds are that the kids who refused to have their picture taken have no idea what Ryan's preferred policies are, and how those policies will affect their lives.  These kids have, by and large, lived a sheltered existence. They are fully supported and have never had to work to support themselves or others. 

I'm pretty sure these kids have not critically thought through the issues and came to the conclusion that they just couldn't bear to be in the same photo as Paul Ryan.  The fact of the matter is that they have probably heard their parents, their neighbors, and their friends parroting stuff like you read below.   

If there is one thing these kids have shown is that they have been indoctrinated.  It's that simple.  

If my kid was one of those that refused to have their picture taken with a person like this then I would be asking him why.  This would be true for someone I really don't like.  

My kids are bright.  But, at that age we should not expect them to be able to navigate this stuff.  They just don't have the experience or the understanding in order to do so.  

ml1 said:

it's really not much of an exaggeration that if you are poor, sick or disabled, Ayn Rand disciple Paul Ryan thinks you should **** off and die. 

That's the real and very dangerous hatred. From a man with real power. 

My children are of a similar age.  They are incredibly thoughtful and politically active.  They debate effectively and have their own views.  And they disagree with my wife and me with some regularity on various topics.  I have no doubt that they can out debate and out think many adults. 

I am sure that their political views will continue to evolve.  But I am not comfortable portraying the actions of these teens as "uninformed" or worse "parroting" their parents.  

If you listen to an interviews with one of the kids, he mentions the impact of attending a 10th grade debate. Some of these kids have also been made more aware than usual of politics due to the drama of the presidential election, and the 'twittering' of the POTUS.

Keep in mind that this 8th grade class has previously been very politically active, and had their own walkout of SOMS to protest hate seen from the POTUS. The quotes and reasoning behind these have been quite informed and I was impressed. Some have older siblings in high school who inform them. Some have parents in journalism or involved in local politics. Some seem to have a gift for political leadership.

In driving home one 8th grader after the SOMS protest earlier this year, I was impressed that he knew so much about local and national government. He also asked lots of questions to me, and to other kids in the car. His questions were extraordinarily thoughtful.

By 8th grade, I knew my political perspective was not quite aligned with my parents', and definitely not aligned with my grandparents'. Some of us grow up in households where religion and politics are fairly constant areas of disagreement... and come away with forming our own points of view. 

terp said:

Yes.  Yes.  By the 8th grade.  Magically. 

ml1 said:

in some quarters "indoctrinating" is also known as teaching.  Of course we share with our kids our values, whether it be religion, ethics, patriotism, politics or whether to root for the Mets or the Yankees.  Some of what we teach they internalize, and some parts they reject.  By middle school most of them have their own ideas about how much of what we teach them they want to retain for themselves.  

terp said:

This really isn't about Speaker Ryan.  I don't like Speaker Ryan either.  The point is, if my 8th grade child came back from DC and said he refused to have his photo taken with the speaker of the house, I would be asking him why. And I'd be very interested in the reasoning.

And if the answer you received was "Speaker Ryan is a man who puts his party before his country," and “I don’t like to take a picture with somebody that I can’t associate with. Let’s say somebody is not nice to me at school, for example. I wouldn’t take a picture with them, probably.” then what? Where do you take that conversation?

To students who at such a young age have the patience, discipline and open mindedness to consider all angles, ignore what they are told to believe, reason out their convictions and muster the courage to stand up for them: well done, you are mature beyond your years.

To children who mistake their sheltered upbringing for moral superiority, who think it takes more courage to repeat what your taught than to shut up and listen, and who seek the comfort of praise from their parents and peers for doing what they do because thinking for yourself and exposing yourself to others is difficult and maybe a little scary: you need to grow up learn what real bravery is.

RobinHood said:

To students who at such a young age have the patience, discipline and open mindedness to consider all angles, ignore what they are told to believe, reason out their convictions and muster the courage to stand up for them: well done, you are mature beyond your years.

To children who mistake their sheltered upbringing for moral superiority, who think it takes more courage to repeat what your taught than to shut up and listen, and who seek the comfort of praise from their parents and peers for doing what they do because thinking for yourself and exposing yourself to others is difficult and maybe a little scary: you need to grow up learn what real bravery is.

So you're either too mature for your age or you need to grow up?

I knew I hated being 13, now I know why.

terp said:

South_Mountaineer said:

This poster doesn't know anything about these students, but has reached a conclusion about what they know, and what they were thinking.  It doesn't seem that the poster even bothered to read one of the news reports about what the students actually said.  Despite that, there is a lot of assuming about them, the school, their parents, the friends of their parents, and it's all indoctrination (according to this poster).

Seems not to be based on any facts, just preconceived notions on the part of the poster.

If you are saying that I don't know each of them personally, I would agree with you.  But to say I know nothing about them is incorrect. 

Here's what I know about the (by and large):

• They are in Middle School
• They have never really worked a day in their life
• They have not ever tried to start a business
• Their lives are fully supported by others
• From speaking with educators, by and large, children of this age do not have the mental ability to logically induce a trend based on an action in a complex system
• It is very likely their parents, their teachers, their friends, and the media they consume express a strong dislike for Paul Ryan & Donald Trump(See what is implied in annielou's post below)

annielou said:

It's probable that the students who refused the handshake were a bit more attuned to who and what Ryan represents. I don't know that those who offered their handshake necessarily demonstrated a political viewpoint at that very moment. "Hey, here's some guy we see in the media (famous) who's trying to take a picture with us" is the more likely scenario.

Sorry, should have included words like "relevant" or "facts supporting the conclusion" in my comment about what the poster knows.  As for the bullet points about what the poster knows, and thinks is relevant or support the poster's conclusion -

- The first 4 describe the life of an eighth grader in a middle class environment.  They don't describe any factor which reflects whether they can be informed and draw a conclusion about a political figure - especially one who wants to use them as background for his photo op.

- The "from speaking with educators" bullet point is not a fact about the students, but is something the poster considers to be an established and relevant principle of student development.  Even if applicable to a generic student in abstract, whether it applies to the reaction of these students to this circumstance (posing with Speaker Ryan) is questionable.  I'll refer again to just the news coverage, and anybody can bring their own experience with actual eighth graders in considering that.

-The final bullet point (with "very likely" and "implied") is an opinion, not a fact.

The poster's explanation supports my original statement (in my opinion, of course).

Sounds like a Taylor Swift song. I suppose I should cut the buggers a little slack. I am still embarrassed by my 13 year old self.