Thank you Game of Thrones

imonlysleeping said:

except viewers who were manipulated by the writers to loathe him so that there would be some supposed payoff when he was finally killed. 

This is also known as "storytelling".

Well, I agree Ramsey was tertiary. But IMO Jon, Sansa, Littlefinger, and Winterfell are every bit as central to the story as Tyrion and Kings Landing, and pretty clearly MORE central than Stannis and Tywin, given that they are both dead.

I guess we all see things from different perspectives.

This is the song of ice and fire, Jon Snow and Dany Targaryen. The Battle of the Bastards was needed for Jon to regain his ancestral home and begin his campaign to rule the Seven Kingdoms. Just like Dany, Jon has been reborn, and may have to be a second time (just like Dany did) in order to convince the world that he is the rightful ruler. That is the final solution I believe. If R+L=J, then either Snow and Dany are at war or they get married and rule as King and Queen, closing the circle. 

Or, if you want to read a series of books about mostly-despicable people doing horrendous things to each other to survive and climb the social ladder, with no happy endings or satisfying conclusions, you could read David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series.

If R+L=J, then Snow and Dany are rather unlikely to end up married. Unless, I guess, the viewers end up being privy to info that the characters themselves are not. Which would be pretty icky.

I always suspected that Jon and Danyeris will be enemies at the end -- she attempting to either conquer or destroy (or, both) Westeros - a la the Mad King - and he trying to save it. Hence, Fire and Ice. She is trending more evil and unstable, from my perspective. Also, what is the connection of R'hilor -- Lord of Light/God of Fire -- to her and the dragons? Is he evil? Finally, if Jon's parentage is what we all hope it is, he has a better claim to the throne than Dany.

imonlysleeping said:

If R+L=J, then Snow and Dany are rather unlikely to end up married. Unless, I guess, the viewers end up being privy to info that the characters themselves are not. Which would be pretty icky.

Watching it again, I'm still bummed Jon Snow didn't give a St Crispins Day style speech.

Great episode! 

ridski said:

This is the song of ice and fire, Jon Snow and Dany Targaryen. The Battle of the Bastards was needed for Jon to regain his ancestral home and begin his campaign to rule the Seven Kingdoms. Just like Dany, Jon has been reborn, and may have to be a second time (just like Dany did) in order to convince the world that he is the rightful ruler. That is the final solution I believe. If R+L=J, then either Snow and Dany are at war or they get married and rule as King and Queen, closing the circle. 

Or, if you want to read a series of books about mostly-despicable people doing horrendous things to each other to survive and climb the social ladder, with no happy endings or satisfying conclusions, you could read David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series.

This (well, except for the Chung Kuo stuff, which I know nothing about). But there are also plenty of us who have a strong vested interest in seeing the Stark family get some justice and get the Stark Band back together. From the start, the Starks have been a very strong element in the story arcs of the ruling families, and the hints about Jon Snow could make his personal story arc extremely important. Just because you found the battle episode contrived doesn't mean it has no place in overall developments.

PeggyC said:

ridski said:

This is the song of ice and fire, Jon Snow and Dany Targaryen. The Battle of the Bastards was needed for Jon to regain his ancestral home and begin his campaign to rule the Seven Kingdoms. Just like Dany, Jon has been reborn, and may have to be a second time (just like Dany did) in order to convince the world that he is the rightful ruler. That is the final solution I believe. If R+L=J, then either Snow and Dany are at war or they get married and rule as King and Queen, closing the circle. 

Or, if you want to read a series of books about mostly-despicable people doing horrendous things to each other to survive and climb the social ladder, with no happy endings or satisfying conclusions, you could read David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series.

This (well, except for the Chung Kuo stuff, which I know nothing about). But there are also plenty of us who have a strong vested interest in seeing the Stark family get some justice and get the Stark Band back together. From the start, the Starks have been a very strong element in the story arcs of the ruling families, and the hints about Jon Snow could make his personal story arc extremely important. Just because you found the battle episode contrived doesn't mean it has no place in overall developments.

Not entirely why you're quoting me on this. imonlysleeping found the battle contrived, not me.

I think she's agreeing with you and disagreeing with me in the same post. I still don't see why he couldn't have retaken Winterfell without the contrived "battle to end all battles," which served no narrative purpose. He also could easily have waged his campaign against the Lannisters from elsewhere (if that's in fact what he's doing). 

I thought this (by our excellent former local tv critic) was an especially smart take. 

http://m.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/review-did-battle-of-the-bastards-on-game-of-thrones-live-up-to-the-hype

Meh. YMMV.

i think the last episode was outstanding.   the military strategies were terrific and terrifying at the same time.   the action was in no way boring, it was outstanding, sort of a 300, mixed with the history channel. 

sansa's revenge was appropriate.

if anything the episode could have been expanded to two hours and we could have had a bigger view of what went down in mereen.

The circle-of-shields thing comes from a real battle, which I thought was interesting: 

http://time.com/4374748/battle-of-cannae-game-of-thrones/?xid=time_socialflow_twitter

hoops said:

i think the last episode was outstanding.   the military strategies were terrific and terrifying at the same time.   the action was in no way boring, it was outstanding, sort of a 300, mixed with the history channel. 

sansa's revenge was appropriate.

if anything the episode could have been expanded to two hours and we could have had a bigger view of what went down in mereen.

imonlysleeping said:

The circle-of-shields thing comes from a real battle, which I thought was interesting: 

http://time.com/4374748/battle-of-cannae-game-of-thrones/?xid=time_socialflow_twitter

hoops said:

i think the last episode was outstanding.   the military strategies were terrific and terrifying at the same time.   the action was in no way boring, it was outstanding, sort of a 300, mixed with the history channel. 

sansa's revenge was appropriate.

if anything the episode could have been expanded to two hours and we could have had a bigger view of what went down in mereen.

thats what I meant.  I happened to be home on Monday the history channel had a program on Hannibal.

Yes, I was quoting you to agree with what you said, Ridski. Sorry if I was unclear when I shifted gears.

PeggyC said:

Yes, I was quoting you to agree with what you said, Ridski. Sorry if I was unclear when I shifted gears.

Okay. No problemo.

they gonna bring ramsey back too?

I think Sansa had to see Jon go through that horrific battle.  

Robert_Casotto said:

they gonna bring ramsey back too?

Only if they can get all the parts back from the dogs' stomachs...

Yes...I feel like this was the episode/storyline in which Sansa grew up, took on her own "agency", and started shaping the world rather than being shaped by it.  

It remains to see whether she will shape the world for good or ill, of course, and how she will deal with Littlefinger and his ambitions, given how much he has done for her, and to her.

Red_Barchetta said:

I think Sansa had to see Jon go through that horrific battle.  

In the end, it's all about Littlefinger

like others have said, we didn't actually see ramsey die.  Just dogs eating his face.

He could be reconstituted as a living dog excrement, but then how could we tell? 

Definitely agree that that's the arc, but it seemed like she was willing to sacrifice Jon in the process and see him die...

susan1014 said:

Yes...I feel like this was the episode/storyline in which Sansa grew up, took on her own "agency", and started shaping the world rather than being shaped by it.  

It remains to see whether she will shape the world for good or ill, of course, and how she will deal with Littlefinger and his ambitions, given how much he has done for her, and to her.

Red_Barchetta said:

I think Sansa had to see Jon go through that horrific battle.  

So many of the Starks have been sacrificed, one way or another. Sansa has really grown up, and she accepts that you must pay a large price, or at least be prepared to do so, to gain anything of value in their world. 

Sansa was quick to write off Rickon as dead so I think she wouldn't care too much if Jon died also. I think it was odd that she never told Jon about Littlefinger , it seems that she knew they were coming since she rode up with them. They could have waited an hour and not got their asses kicked in the beginning. 

I don't see Dany and Jon fighting each other. First off everything seems to point to them being brother and sister. Second I don't think Jon has any desire to be a King or even a Lord. There is talk of 3 dragon riders which I think will be Dany, Jon, and Tyrion all of whom I think were fathered by the Mad King. 

Next up will be a world war for control of Westeros followed by a united war against the White Walkers. 

I really enjoyed the last episode even though it was predictable. I liked the way battle scenes were shot,  the way Ramsey was twisted until the end ( he was smiling when Jon was pounding his face in). The way Sansa watched Ramsey being eaten and her smirk was creepy in a good way. 

I was bummed to see Wun Wun to die but I guess he was an expensive and time consuming character for a TV series. I didn't understand how they ended up with a pile of bodies in the middle of the battle field but I'll get over it.

Aunt and nephew, you mean. Seems like they might be setting up Yara as a dragon rider, no? Could be three women. Don't know who the third would be, though. Any scenario where it's Sansa? Hmm. 

I don't see any reason Jon couldn't take the throne. If he's the rightful king, succession-wise, why would he turn it down? He accepted the Night's Watch gig in the end, after all. 

lumpy said:

 I don't see Dany and Jon fighting each other. First off everything seems to point to them being brother and sister. Second I don't think Jon has any desire to be a King or even a Lord. There is talk of 3 dragon riders which I think will be Dany, Jon, and Tyrion all of whom I think were fathered by the Mad King. 

I guess I'm confusing my dead Targaryans, I thought Rhaegar and the Mad King were the same person. I didn't realize they were father and son. 

I started to think Tyrion may also be a Targaryan, from an affair, which was the real reason his father had such hatred for him and why the dragon didn't eat him.

Jon could be King, I just don't think he would want to. He seems more at home in the north with the free folk. In a way, Dany does't seem to want to be Queen either. She is driven by revenge for her family and justice for the weak, but uninterested in actually governing people.  Maybe they will move to a representative type government, which  would be a real exciting plot line for a fantasy show right. 

Wasn't Aerys the mad king?  Rhaegar was his son.