Was Rep. Ilhan Omar being anti-semitic?

basil said:
Israel will come to regret that, instead of remaining neutral in the partisan warfare in the US, they openly sided with the GOP. If you think this dual-loyalty discussion now is anti-semitic (which it isn't), wait a few more years. Unless of course, Israel gets their act together again, which they show no signs of. They only have themselves to blame.

Would you say the same thing about the USA under Trump, that you are saying about Israel under Netanyahu?  Do we also only have ourselves to blame?

Unmentioned in all of this discussion of hate is the fact that Israel is currently ruled by a coalition that includes the Israeli version of the KKK.  That alone ought to be reason enough for a reappraisal of America's relationship with the Netanyahu government.

Klinker said:
Unmentioned in all of this discussion of hate is the fact that Israel is currently ruled by a coalition that includes the Israeli version of the KKK.  That alone ought to be reason enough for a reappraisal of America's relationship with the Netanyahu government.

In all of this discussion of hate is the fact that there are parallels at home.

Our own president is courting the KKK, White supremacists, and other nationalists. Nationalism and Fascism is on the rise. Our government used its military to put down protests on a reservation, where our own indigenous people are sent to live. Then, like an Israeli settlement, we start encroaching on their land by putting oil pipelines through it -- for our own gain.

If Native Americans were externally funded and armed, would this conflict have looked more like the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? What can we do to remedy our own country's trend towards nationalism and fascism -- and our own country's treatment of indigenous people and rights to land? 

By understanding our country better, how we might effect real change in these areas? And could we better inform an Israeli/Palestinian peace process?

Thank goodness I am able to oppose apartheidist programs both at home and abroad.

Yes -- we all do. But the question is: what works best to address this?  Collective punishment? (Should we be collectively punished?) Or some other mechanisms?

What is the best way to exert pressure on a democracy to change?  I suppose there are ways to target pressure, witness China's tariffs on products produced in pro Trump states.  I haven't spent much time studying the Israeli economy.  Are there ways to impose sanctions and implement boycotts that would specifically target sectors that support Netanyahoo and other racist/nationalist elements?

I suspect the smaller scale of Israel as a whole, combined with the vagaries of a parliamentary system would make this impractical.

sprout said:
Would you say the same thing about the USA under Trump, that you are saying about Israel under Netanyahu?  Do we also only have ourselves to blame?

yes, the USA as a whole have ourselves to blame for Trumpism and everything that spawned it.

I've paid particular attention to what people in Omar's district have been saying. Feelings are mixed- some people are critical and some are supportive. Omar Jamal, a community activist, was quoted in yesterday's Washington Post:

"Somali community activist Omar Jamal of St. Paul said he is in touch with local Jewish leaders about how the two sides can reaffirm their solidarity at a moment of crisis. He said that he supported Omar’s congressional campaign but that her comments are “wrong, period.”

“She can solve this problem if she wants to,” Jamal said. “This is up to Ilhan Omar. She has really spoken in a very dangerous way, and it’s going to be up to her to reach out to people and fix this.”

..............

"Jamal, the Somali community activist, said that Omar’s use of allegedly anti-Semitic stereotypes does not reflect his community’s view of Jews. He wrote a column in 2014 urging Somali Americans to reject anti-Semitism.

“Of course, she has every right to offer opinions about the state of Israel, but I think this was beyond that and I think we completely disagree with it,” he said."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-minnesota-rep-ilhan-omars-comments-cause-pain-and-confusion/2019/03/10/ff3f3700-41cb-11e9-9361-301ffb5bd5e6_story.html?utm_term=.2c82a671554f

This is the opinion piece Omar Jamal wrote in the Star-Tribune in 2014 which is referred to in the Washington Post article. I'm quoting it in full because it is behind a paywall. 

"I am a Somali-American who is proud to make Minnesota my home — along with thousands in our community. I have served my native country as Somalia’s First Secretary to the Somali Mission to the United Nations.

I am a friend of Palestine. I am a friend of Israel. I am a friend of the Muslim community. I am a friend of the Jewish community.

At times I have opposed policies of the Israeli government. Indeed, I voted in favor of the November 2012 United Nations General Assembly resolution recognizing Palestinian statehood, which Israel and the United States opposed.

At the same time, I remind our community that Israel was the first nation at the U.N. to support Somali admission into the organization. Israeli nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) have long extended assistance to Somali refugees in East African refugee camps. More recently, an Israeli judge granted asylum to Somalis living in Tel Aviv. By contrast, Saudi Arabia continues to deport Somalis to the dangerous conditions of the civil war.

Israel is a country with which we have important disagreements, but Israel is also a nation that has been supportive of the Somali people, support we deeply appreciate.

This full history of the Somali-Israeli relationship is not evident in the expressions of hate and anti-Semitism — in Somali, Arabic and English — that I read on social media from members of our local Somali community. Here are some illustrative examples: “Kill the Jews.” “Hitler was a hero.” “Boycott Jewish business.” And so on.

Such comments are wrong, abhorrent and counterproductive in the effort to establish peace in the Middle East — and they reflect badly upon our community. I keep in mind that these are not sentiments held by the vast majority of decent and caring Somalis, but are the vicious outbursts of a small group of people. But unless our community repudiates them, what they say will do great damage.

We have not come to the United States to become haters of Jews, of Israel or of anyone else, for that matter. Leave that hatred to the Europeans, whose streets in Brussels, Paris and London are filled with demonstrators shouting “death to the Jews” by way of protesting the Gaza war. This is not our way. This is not the American way. This is not the Somali-American way.

This country — our country — is a land where, for all of its historical difficulties, including its own Civil War, the expression of political differences is largely civil and does not descend to the level of wishing death or misfortune for those with whom we disagree. That type of discourse has no place in the United States and should have no place in our Somali-American culture.

Besides being morally wrong, anti-Minnesotan and anti-American, such expressions of hatred bring a Palestinian state no closer to existence. All such talk does is alienate the broad band of Minnesotans and Americans who support Israel and who recognize the just need for an independent Palestinian state — a position for which I cast an affirmative U.N. vote. Mixing support for Palestinians with hatred of Jews quite rightly turns people off and relegates those who engage in it to the fringes, where Americans rightly place all anti-Semites.

Somali support for a Palestinian state is natural and important. Somali support for a two-state solution between Israel and Palestine is historically right and just, and helps our community become a bridge between our Muslim and Jewish friends in Minnesota and across the United States.

This is the American way and the Somali-American way!

Omar Jamal is a Somali community activist in St. Paul and former executive director of the Somali Justice Advocacy Center.

Great, great comments by sports journalist Dave Zirin on the Omar controversy. He comes on twice at 4:04 and 8:50. "The Jewish community is not monolithic on these questions . . . it was like a breath of fresh air to hear Rep. Omar say these words."

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/batya-ungar-sargon-omar-discussing-foreign-allegiance-is-anti-semitic-1455436355706

Very nice.  The Democratic Party is coming unglued over the hand-wringing of a few inexperienced social justice warriors.  Any useful things people like Omar and AOC may say are getting lost in the reaction to poorly chosen words.

I guess 2020 will be a race to see who is hated least.

Klinker said:
What is the best way to exert pressure on a democracy to change?  I suppose there are ways to target pressure, witness China's tariffs on products produced in pro Trump states.  I haven't spent much time studying the Israeli economy.  Are there ways to impose sanctions and implement boycotts that would specifically target sectors that support Netanyahoo and other racist/nationalist elements?
I suspect the smaller scale of Israel as a whole, combined with the vagaries of a parliamentary system would make this impractical.

ml1 said:

sprout said:
Would you say the same thing about the USA under Trump, that you are saying about Israel under Netanyahu?  Do we also only have ourselves to blame?

yes, the USA as a whole have ourselves to blame for Trumpism and everything that spawned it.

Interesting that both of you see this from at least somewhat of a collective-blame perspective.

When in school, I hated collective blame/punishment (e.g., punishing the whole class) when it was just a few loud kids creating chaos. Collective punishment didn't change the loud kids to become quieter, and it didn't improve the culture of the classroom. It did make the quieter kids mad at the louder ones (and yell at them "shut up!" -- so it made some quieter kids become louder ones, and increase the chaos and increase the frustration and flaring of tempers). In addition, it made everyone mad at the lazy teacher who couldn't be bothered to address the loud students' behavior directly. It didn't seem a productive approach to behavior change, but maybe made the teacher feel like she wasn't powerless over the situation?

I also recently read that the types of people who tend to be insensitive to the suffering of others (the far end of that spectrum being psychopaths) tend to be least responsive to punishment (or threats of punishment) to themselves. They may not experience the emotion of fear very strongly. These types of people who do not respond to punishment, do however respond to incentives.

So, with Trump and Netanyahu (and Kim, etc.), perhaps an effective approach for change is a carrot -- one directed to them specifically. What would they have to gain from a change in policy?

I suspect if someone can come up with a good incentive, a faster, more effective, and more humanitarian solution may be found than one created based on collective punishment.

Just brainstorming:

With Netanyahu indicted for corruption, perhaps an incentive could be reduced/removed jail time if he can negotiate a peace agreement with the Palestinian Authority. (With some consideration of the possibility of one of the P.A.'s factions agreeing and the other one not).

It would be interesting to see if incentives around his own fate changed Netanyahu's perspective on what was negotiable with the Palestinians. And how that would be received/managed by his own party/supporters.

sprout said:
Just brainstorming:
With Netanyahu indicted for corruption, perhaps an incentive could be reduced/removed jail time if he can negotiate a peace agreement with the Palestinian Authority. (With some consideration of the possibility of one of the P.A.'s factions agreeing and the other one not).
It would be interesting to see if incentives around his own fate changed Netanyahu's perspective on what was negotiable with the Palestinians. And how that would be received/managed by his own party/supporters.

Firstly, no one in Netanyahu's coalition is interested in a peace agreement. They feel its a God given right to get it all.

Secondly, I would hope that Israel never become some sh*t hole country where justice can be traded.

Maybe. 

It's possible this could be seen more like a pleading down for a reduced sentence (removal from his position) than a complete miscarriage of justice -- but I'm the farthest thing from a lawyer. Trading jailtime (for corruption) for peace, or trading blood and economic punishments for... non-peace, to me, the former seems more attractive. 

That said -- just brainstorming here. This obviously has not been thought through.

Bibi’s not helping. 

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is drawing criticism for saying that Israel is "the national state, not of all its citizens, but only of the Jewish people." The comment prompted many people — including Israel's president and the star of Wonder Woman — to defend Israel's Palestinian Arab minority.

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/11/702264118/netanyahu-says-israel-is-nation-state-of-the-jewish-people-and-them-alone

STANV said:
There must be a coming together of the Jewish and Muslim Communities in the U.S. to protect against the increasing Fascist attacks on both.

 There's hope. 

https://averagemohamed.com/2019/02/12/correction-the-american-somali-jewish-relationship-is-strong/

BG9 said:

sprout said:
Just brainstorming:
With Netanyahu indicted for corruption, perhaps an incentive could be reduced/removed jail time if he can negotiate a peace agreement with the Palestinian Authority. (With some consideration of the possibility of one of the P.A.'s factions agreeing and the other one not).
It would be interesting to see if incentives around his own fate changed Netanyahu's perspective on what was negotiable with the Palestinians. And how that would be received/managed by his own party/supporters.

Firstly, no one in Netanyahu's coalition is interested in a peace agreement. They feel its a God given right to get it all.

Secondly, I would hope that Israel never become some sh*t hole country where justice can be traded.

 Not just Netanyahu's coalition. The top Democrat in the Senate says it's in the Bible:

http://www.policyconference.org/article/transcripts/2018/schumer.asp

Now, let me tell you why – my view, why we don't have peace. Because the fact of the matter is that too many Palestinians and too many Arabs do not want any Jewish state in the Middle East. The view of Palestinians is simple, the Europeans treated the Jews badly culminating in the Holocaust and they gave them our land as compensation.

Of course, we say it's our land, the Torah says it, but they don't believe in the Torah. So that's the reason there is not peace. They invent other reasons, but they do not believe in a Jewish state and that is why we, in America, must stand strong with Israel through thick and thin. We must, because that is the reason, not any of these other false shibboleths why there is not peace in the Middle East.

Too many people don't understand that here in America.

tjohn said:

I guess 2020 will be a race to see who is hated least.

What do you think 2016 was?

That said, just because you hate progressive policies and politicians doesn't mean everyone does.  I am thrilled to, for the first time in my political life, be hearing politicians talking about making REAL changes.  

There is something to be said for social justice and, come to speak of it, just plain justice.

Klinker said:

tjohn said:

I guess 2020 will be a race to see who is hated least.

What do you think 2016 was?
That said, just because you hate progressive policies and politicians doesn't mean everyone does.  I am thrilled to, for the first time in my political life, be hearing politicians talking about making REAL changes.  
There is something to be said for social justice and, come to speak of it, just plain justice.

I'm thrilled too. Although I don't talk about it much, I have this crash n' burn fetish and this progressive movement is shaping up to be a pretty good one.

An anti-semitic attack on Congresswoman Omar for being anti-semitic

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/12/lepage-omar-jews-democrats-money-1216977

That guy has some freaky looking eyes.

If (hypothetically) Ilhan cited this as evidence of a depraved element in the Israeli Knesset would that be anti-Semitic?

paulsurovell said:
If (hypothetically) Ilhan cited this as evidence of a depraved element in the Israeli Knesset would that be anti-Semitic?

If (hypothetically) someone reading this thread had deemed fault-finding alone anti-Semitic, that person might think so. Did you have anybody in mind?

DaveSchmidt said:

paulsurovell said:
If (hypothetically) Ilhan cited this as evidence of a depraved element in the Israeli Knesset would that be anti-Semitic?

If (hypothetically) someone reading this thread had deemed fault-finding alone anti-Semitic, that person might think so. Did you have anybody in mind?

 There was a right way and a wrong way to defend Rep. Omar.  Mr. Surovell is choosing the wrong way. Again.

paulsurovell said:
If (hypothetically) Ilhan cited this as evidence of a depraved element in the Israeli Knesset would that be anti-Semitic?

 This is the comment of someone seeking to defend anti-Semitism.  My disappointment with this line of reasoning from Paul in particular is why I abandoned the thread.  There was a time when you, Paul, debated in good faith.

If you can find a way to read Omar's Op Ed in the 3/17 WaPo (curiously unmentioned so far here) I think everyone in this thread would benefit from her analysis of the language of hate and intolerance, and her embracing of the two-state solution and the right for both Jews and Palestinians to live in peace on their historic, shared homeland.

max_weisenfeld said:
If you can find a way to read Omar's Op Ed in the 3/17 WaPo (curiously unmentioned so far here) I think everyone in this thread would benefit from her analysis of the language of hate and intolerance, and her embracing of the two-state solution and the right for both Jews and Palestinians to live in peace on their historic, shared homeland.

 The two-state solution is dead.

wedjet said:
 The two-state solution is dead.

 So was socialism, yet still she persisted...

max_weisenfeld said:

paulsurovell said:
If (hypothetically) Ilhan cited this as evidence of a depraved element in the Israeli Knesset would that be anti-Semitic?

 This is the comment of someone seeking to defend anti-Semitism.  My disappointment with this line of reasoning from Paul in particular is why I abandoned the thread.  There was a time when you, Paul, debated in good faith.

 There are many Jews who are conscious of the evil of anti-Semitism (myself included) who view the allegations of anti-Semitism made against Ilhan as disguised attacks against her criticisms of Israel and the Israel lobby (AIPAC). The article I posted illustrates the dehumanization of Palestinians that is reflected in Israel's policies toward Palestinians. It is a graphic example of why criticism of Israel's occupation and historic and ongoing human rights violations of the Palestinians needs to be heard.

Regardless of how you interpret Ilhan's comments, if you cannot acknowledge that criticism of Israel is often falsely equated with anti-Semitism -- in order to suppress criticism of Israel's policies -- you are not debating in good faith.

These comments by Dave Zirin and M J Rosenberg, which I think I posted earlier, sum up my position:

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/batya-ungar-sargon-omar-discussing-foreign-allegiance-is-anti-semitic-1455436355706

https://forward.com/opinion/395676/its-time-for-aipac-to-register-as-a-foreign-agent/

wedjet said:

max_weisenfeld said:
If you can find a way to read Omar's Op Ed in the 3/17 WaPo (curiously unmentioned so far here) I think everyone in this thread would benefit from her analysis of the language of hate and intolerance, and her embracing of the two-state solution and the right for both Jews and Palestinians to live in peace on their historic, shared homeland.

 The two-state solution is dead.

 This assumes that settlement expansion in the West Bank is "irreversible," which assumes that Israel cannot make a political decision to bring the settlers home, as they did in Gaza.  A much bigger and a more difficult job, but far more viable than a political decision to reverse 70+ years of the State of Israel.