The swift boating of Bernie Sanders?

shoshannah said:
To be fair, this is not really swift-boating. They are just protesting. Swift-boating is when you turn a positive feature against the person. Like what happened to Kerry with his military service. And what Trump did to McCain.

It wasn't just used against Kerry. It involved LIES about his service!

flimbro, I had to google to get the definitions of BLM and CR movement. Please use full names the first time you use a term. You have more than one reader.

What do you mean when you use the term white supremacy? Do you think Sanders is a supremacist?

I assumed meant it in The sense of political, social and economic dominsnce, not necessarily racist.

flimbro said:
I think he's sharp enough to use this to his advantage.

To begin with, I bet far more Black voters know his name now than did before this happened!

flimbro said:
They disrupted his appearances- twice. They got national media attention both times and Sanders revised his platform and posted his positions on Sunday. I'd say their strategy worked.

Sure it worked, in an ends-justify-the-means kind of way.

flimbro said:

ParticleMan said:

flimbro said:
They disrupted his appearances- twice. They got national media attention both times and Sanders revised his platform and posted his positions on Sunday. I'd say their strategy worked.

Did they try to discuss it with him first and get rebuffed?

I have no idea. I do know that he listened and that's what matters. Obviously the Black Lives Matter members are savvy enough to know that stepping up onto a podium in front of the speaker and saying exactly what you want to say to that speaker and his audience is a much more efficient way of getting your message across.
It's also important to note that this movement is not like the CR movement. It isn't characterized by high level summits and back room bargaining by spokesman and politicians. This approach is direct and forceful and in my opinion matches the severity of the times.
Sanders is/was the perfect target. He touted his activist background yet had nothing to say about the epidemic of state sanctioned violence that now comes like clockwork. Tim Wise, in the link that @phenixrising provided, writes that you cannot have a conversation about economic inequities without addressing the catalyst behind those inequities. Sanders wanted to rest on his laurels and discuss the gap between rich and poor all the while keeping issues of white supremacy at arm's length. It's understandable- he's an older white man in a leadership position accustomed to determining the course of conversation and being beholden only to his white liberal constituency. As such he wanted a pass on discussing racism and it simply wasn't going to work. It'll be interesting to see how he moves forward. I think he's sharp enough to use this to his advantage.

I think you're making a lot of unfair assumptions. Resting on his laurels would have consisted of coasting on his election proof seat into dementia, or retiring with his lifelong pension and benefits to play with his grand children.

Hi Tom. I thought the abbreviations were obvious via the context and other posts. I'll try to do better.

Assuming you're not really asking me what white supremacy is I'll refer you the link @phenixrising offered earlier. It's a brief post by Tim Wise. In it he writes about the origins of the economic issues Sanders uses as a foundation for his platform. Wise makes the point that any discussion of economic inequities has to include an examination of white supremacy which is of course the end product of white racism.

Here are two excerpts:

"The class system, about which Sanders often speaks quite convincingly, is actually only as strong as it is BECAUSE of racism and white supremacy."

"Until the white left begins to say loudly and consistently that RACISM is what gives the class system power (much more so than the reverse) in this country, and until we make it clear to white folks that only by prioritizing the fight against racism can we truly make inroads towards economic justice, we on the white left have little right to lecture activists of color about their messaging."

And the link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251505825

No I don't think Sanders is a supremacist, but I do think he is accustomed to his opinion /perspective being the most important one in the room. A trait that is to some degree brought about by living and working in an environment where almost everyone of any import looks like him.

I also think he is an astute enough politician to recognize that making a point ofadjusting his platform to include the Black Lives Matter concerns will give him an opportunity to distinguish his position from Clinton's - if only in terms of authenticity.

With regard to the term "swift boating", when I see something like this I like to ask who is benefitting. It's certainly not Bernie and it doesn't seem to be BLM. Hillary, on the other hand....

BLM wasn't behind the Bernie interruption. A smaller, more radical group was.

dave said:
BLM wasn't behind the Bernie interruption. A smaller, more radical group was.

What group?

Outside Agitators 206

https://outsideagitators206.org/who-we-are/

For some people of color, including myself, poverty and economic inequality are inexorably linked to racism. The poor communities where people of color live today were by-and-large determined by redlining, housing segregation and urban disinvestment. Over-dependence on property taxes to fund schools in these communities resulted in crumbling and failing schools. And, the school-to-prison pipeline disproportionately impacts black boys - who then return to these very same black communities unable to work or vote.

IMHO, you can't address poverty without tackling these fundemental issues.

@Red_Barchetta
Within the context of this discussion "resting on his laurels" refers to him assuming that his days as an activist would satisfy an audience looking for civil/human rights bona fides. On more than one occasion he's referred to those days as proof of his credentials and evidence of an understanding of issues with race at their core. I don't begrudge him that at all. He earned the right and it was good work. What I'm saying is that in 2015 for young Black and brown activists his marching days are no longer acceptable currency. Add to this the fact that some white liberals look to sidestep self implication by avoiding any discussion of white supremacy and instead choose to concentrate on the by products- (listed above by @Hahaha )

To his credit after being caught flat footed Sanders regrouped, listened and revised. That is unique. I don't think Clinton would have responded the same way and obviously the majority of Republican candidatesfeel no need to address any of these concerns.

flimbro said:
To his credit after being caught flat footed Sanders regrouped, listened and revised. That is unique. I don't think Clinton would have responded the same way and obviously the majority of Republican candidates feel no need to address any of these concerns.

+1.

Not only did Bernie put forth a new platform, he hired Symone Sanders (no relations to Bernie), to help address racial issues into his campaign. He's listening and acting on his word.

Bernie Sanders Taps African-American Organizer As Campaign Press Secretary
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-press-secretary_55c77941e4b0f1cbf1e54fec

There's two ways to look at this. Many can look at it as phenix did and applaud or look at it as posted by Dave

dave said:
Or it could show him to be weak and easily swayed by a small group, such as the one that interrupted him.

Here's a nibbet from Washington Post on Sander's changes after that incident

The shift can be seen as Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, a Democratic
socialist whose campaign is shaped by class-oriented progressive
politics, has been confronted by black activists demanding answers for
how he would address inequities they believe are derived entirely from
racial discrimination. Mr. Sanders, who is 73, is trying to adjust to a
changing party, sometimes uncomfortably. He is now speaking more
explicitly about policing, has hired an African-American spokeswoman and
has added more diversity on stage at his heavily attended rallies.

What is the preferred diversity stage ratio?

Check out Outside Agitators 206. Sounds like a scary group to me.

galileo said:
Check out Outside Agitators 206. Sounds like a scary group to me.

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of Justice is no virtue"

Senator Barry Goldwater, Acceptance Speech at the Republican National Convention, 1964.

BG9 said:
There's two ways to look at this. Many can look at it as phenix did and applaud or look at it as posted by Dave

dave said:
Or it could show him to be weak and easily swayed by a small group, such as the one that interrupted him.

Here's a nibbet from Washington Post on Sander's changes after that incident

The shift can be seen as Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, a Democratic
socialist whose campaign is shaped by class-oriented progressive
politics, has been confronted by black activists demanding answers for
how he would address inequities they believe are derived entirely from
racial discrimination. Mr. Sanders, who is 73, is trying to adjust to a
changing party, sometimes uncomfortably. He is now speaking more
explicitly about policing, has hired an African-American spokeswoman and
has added more diversity on stage at his heavily attended rallies.

What is the preferred diversity stage ratio?

Bernie recognized and addressed the issues of AA's and people of color. This whole display by these two agitators who claim to be from BLM may be a blessing in disguise. Regardless, I think this may have given him a boost with AA voters.

“I’m not well known in the African-American community, despite a lifelong record,” Sanders told The Times. “That’s a real issue, and I have to deal with it.”

Bernie may be "ol school" but it shows he is able to tune in and make adjustments. He's listening and I will applaud him for that.

galileo said:
Check out Outside Agitators 206. Sounds like a scary group to me.

The one with the mouth was a Sarah Palin supporter.

At the risk of providing clarity here's the first interview with one of the organizers- Marissa Jenae Johnson. In it she answers most of the questions posed here.

Warning: there is profanity, youthful zeal, unapologetic race woman talk, complexity, astute political observation and fortitude.

The interview is 32 minutes long

00-7:54 Intro, commentary and natural sound from rally
7:54- beginning of interview
8:49- why Bernie Sanders
11:14- Hillary Clinton
15:24- are you hurting your own cause
16:10- choice of tactics
18:00- Hillary/Soros plant
18:57- Palin supporter
20:50- Religious convictions
23:20- crowd response at event
27:30- connection to national BLM movement
29:19- faith in electoral politics

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fQqdNF-BHTw&feature=youtu.be

flimbro, thank you for clarifying. Great job. You describe Sanders's weakness and you give credit for his good turnaround. You're right that we have to see how racism is a cause, not a result, of economic inequities. I am now becoming more aware of it, thanks to Black Lives Matter and also to the book I'm reading: Between The World and Me by Ta-Nehisi Coates. I recommend it highly to absolutely everyone. I think awareness is rising, and it makes me optimistic.

An anecdote about Vermont, which is almost all white. A friend of a friend is the only black anesthesiologist there. Before he moved there, he was driving through and got tired. He pulled to the side of the road to take a quick nap. An officer came and tapped on the side window. The man thought, "Uh oh, here we go again." The officer said politely, "Sir, do you need any help?" That is why the man decided to settle there.

Tom, did read Ta-Nehisi Coates' article "The Case for Reparations" in The Atlantic? Shocking and eye-opening. I haven't read his book yet, so I don't know if it covers similar ground.

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

@Tom_Reingold
Coates is a gifted writer and his book, designed as a letter to his 15 year old son, is a beautiful piece of work. The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander is also interesting as well as any essays on white fragility by Robin DiAngelo you can find online.

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/white-fragility-why-its-so-hard-to-talk-to-white-people-about-racism-twlm/

http://libjournal.uncg.edu/ijcp/article/download/249/116

I think the DiAngelo essays illuminate/explain some of the reactions to the Black Lives Matter - Sanders protests from liberals.

But here's what kind of bothers me about this...and it's not a fully formed thought so bear with me.

Isn't the current focus on "white liberals" a bit off-base in some ways? It seems to me that the people who are at least trying to listen and understand and change are on the right path, yet are in some ways being attacked for not doing enough. What about the people who will not even acknowledge there are problems? Shouldn't the focus be on them? And that's not even to get started on the people who actually believe people of color are less than and are not ashamed of that.

I read a comment that said something along the lines of "white liberals actually believe they're inherently different from conservative white supremacists," and I haven't been able to shake that off. Are you seriously going to tell me those people are NOT different?

I'm not suggesting that "white liberals" are doing everything right. But isn't me even saying that and being part of the conversation doing something right? I guess I take some offense to being lumped in with the category of people who are overtly racist in a traditional sense. I can't change being white and I won't apologize for it...but I'm here, trying to listen and be part of the conversation. To suggest all white people are the same is not helping either.

Like, rather than indicting Bernie Sanders for not doing enough, is there really no acknowledgement that at least his heart and mind may be open and on the right track? Which is vastly different from the rhetoric coming from the GOP side, so why isn't more of the vitriol directed at them?

TarheelsInNj said:
But here's what kind of bothers me about this...and it's not a fully formed thought so bear with me.
Isn't the current focus on "white liberals" a bit off-base in some ways? It seems to me that the people who are at least trying to listen and understand and change are on the right path, yet are in some ways being attacked for not doing enough. What about the people who will not even acknowledge there are problems? Shouldn't the focus be on them? And that's not even to get started on the people who actually believe people of color are less than and are not ashamed of that.
I read a comment that said something along the lines of "white liberals actually believe they're inherently different from conservative white supremacists," and I haven't been able to shake that off. Are you seriously going to tell me those people are NOT different?
I'm not suggesting that "white liberals" are doing everything right. But isn't me even saying that and being part of the conversation doing something right? I guess I take some offense to being lumped in with the category of people who are overtly racist in a traditional sense. I can't change being white and I won't apologize for it...but I'm here, trying to listen and be part of the conversation. To suggest all white people are the same is not helping either.
Like, rather than indicting Bernie Sanders for not doing enough, is there really no acknowledgement that at least his heart and mind may be open and on the right track? Which is vastly different from the rhetoric coming from the GOP side, so why isn't more of the vitriol directed at them?

I think you've answered your own question. Protesting conservative candidates is like spitting into the wind.

And you are talking about it only because they chose to attack Bernie.

To his credit he seems to be reacting favorably. But I agree that it seems a little misguided to attack the most socially liberal candidate.

TarheelsInNj said:
is there really no acknowledgement that at least his heart and mind may be open and on the right track? Which is vastly different from the rhetoric coming from the GOP side, so why isn't more of the vitriol directed at them?

Look at the shirt she's wearing on the first page of the thread.

And from the link that Dave posted:

***** the police: As an institution fundamentally rooted in white supremacy and anti-Blackness we reject the police presence in our communities, absolutely.

This wack offshoot faction isn't interested in details. They want attention and know better than to pick a fight with a "take back America" GOP crowd.

I appreciate Bernie for being savvy enough a) not to have the interruptors hauled off by police-like security heavies, and b) hiring a spokesperson able to communicate better his aspirations on how to promote reform in the judicial system. Beyond that he needs to come up with a plan so he doesn't encourage other wingnut zanies to show up at the microphone and how to dispatch them quietly when they do. He can't simply let 2 people monopolize an event attended by thousands. It's not presidential.

kthnry said:
Tom, did read Ta-Nehisi Coates' article "The Case for Reparations" in The Atlantic? Shocking and eye-opening. I haven't read his book yet, so I don't know if it covers similar ground.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

Book is a must-read; as raw an indictment as we've seen since Malcolm X, whom Coates admires.

What ever Bernie did, it seems to be working. Latest polls show him ahead of Hillary in NH.

Of course that may also be due to problems H is running into.

I'm sure he's win New Hampshire if they let him appear on the Dem ballot.

@TarheelsInnj

This isn't fully formed either. It's also a little smart ass but here goes:

I'm going to apply the spirit of your approach with other things in my life. Back in the 90's I participated in a breast cancer run- hell, I'm pretty sure I did it three or four times come to think of it. I don't think you can raise enough money to fight breast cancer so I ran- a lot.

Breast Cancer- Check

I keep getting calls to donate to veteran's groups. Next time they call I'm going to remind them that the routine mistreatment of veterans by the federal government is appalling and the suicide rate amongst those who have served this country is reprehensible and something has to be done. I'm also going to let them know that for years I've donated all of my old clothing and even some furniture to the folks who collect for veterans. Some of those shirts were pretty slick too- I hit those sales at Barney's pretty regularly back in the day.

Veterans Issues- Check

Way back in the 80's I chained myself to embassy gates, threw baggies of calves blood at surprised corporate supporters of apartheid and shut down the administrative building of a college that refused to divest. I hate the practice of race based servitude and I put a lot of work into fighting it.

Apartheid- Check

So, although I'm just in my 50's I've pretty much cleared my slate and fulfilled my personal quota for breast cancer (can I squeeze "women's issues" in there too?), veterans issues, colonialism and race based social and economic oppression on foreign soil. Later on today I'm going to google these three issues and make sure they have my contributions listed somewhere. There's gotta be some kind of data base or something right? Who's keeping track and how do I make sure I'm getting credit

I'm not through though. Although I'm not going to run or donate or protest injustices anymore- I have fulfilled my personal quota after all- I am going to keep thinking real hard about all these issues and remain open minded and anytime anybody wants to discuss them with me I'll listen intently for as long as I possibly can and nod in all the right spots, because I. Get. It. As a bonus I may even point out the selfish folks who I know have never run even an inch, boxed up old clothes or chucked a sandwich bag of blood at a white dude getting out of a limo. They are the real problem.

Least I can do right? We all have to pitch in to make this world a better place.

Oops, hold up. Almost forgot. One time on a project out west I hired a gay, Mexican designer in a wheelchair...

Check
Check
and Boom! I think my work here is done!