Purity tests - how the left is killing itself
mrincredible said:
So let me get this right. Let's imagine that I am for a carbon-free Energy System by 2050, guaranteed rights for all Americans (regardless of gender, age, gender identity or sexuality), massive reductions in privately owned firearms, full reproductive autonomy for all women and a reduction in foreign intervention and regime change. I'll throw in decriminalization of prostitution and certain drugs.
Just out of curiosity, are these your actual political positions?
Klinker said:
Just out of curiosity, are these your actual political positions?
Among others. You'll have to guess about my Universal Healthcare position.
(And don't let me forget large-scale government investment in infrastructure.)
Klinker said:
nohero said:
I think we're talking past each other (and also, mixing up 2016 with 2020 just confuses things).
"Get in line behind Hillary" has nothing to do with the health coverage discussion going on now.
And I didn't say dialogue and disagreement were not vital. I said the opposite. When it gets to the point that the "progressives" tell others that they're not real progressives (even if they're proposing solutions even more progressive than the ACA that Trump has battered), that's not helpful.
But why do conservative Democrats have to be "progressive"? The term has an actual meaning. Its as if I insisted on describing myself as gay even though I am a man who is, by and large, attracted mostly to women.
I wasn't describing a "conservative Democrat". Manchin is a conservative Democrat. Kamala Harris isn't, but fails "the test" according to some people.
nohero said:
Klinker said:
But why do conservative Democrats have to be "progressive"? The term has an actual meaning. Its as if I insisted on describing myself as gay even though I am a man who is, by and large, attracted mostly to women.
I wasn't describing a "conservative Democrat". Manchin is a conservative Democrat. Kamala Harris isn't, but fails "the test" according to some people.
Right. I think there is a spectrum in the Democratic Party. Sanders, Warren and (much as it pains me to say it) Gabbard are Progressives. Folks like Harris are Moderates and individuals such as Klobachar and Biden are Conservatives. That is all fine and good. As I have said many times, its all about the right candidate for the right district. What I don't understand is why some people feel compelled to describe guys like Biden who (with the exception of regional outliers like Manchin) represent the right wing of that spectrum as "Progressives".
Klinker said:
What I don't understand is why some people feel compelled to describe guys like Biden who (with the exception of regional outliers like Manchin) represent the right wing of that spectrum as "Progressives".
“Some people” meaning the candidates themselves and their proxies? Otherwise, where are you finding these two-speed Jags?
DaveSchmidt said:
“Some people” meaning the candidates themselves and their proxies?
Exactly. There supporters tend to do it as well.
Its just absurd.
Klinker said:
DaveSchmidt said:
“Some people” meaning the candidates themselves and their proxies?
Exactly. There supporters tend to do it as well.
Its just absurd.
This is what you don’t understand? Why candidates and their proxies and supporters would claim a mantle of progressivism?
Then you’re the buyer that plastic-seated, two-speeded, amplitude-modulated Jaguar was made for.
DaveSchmidt said:
This is what you don’t understand? Why candidates and their proxies and supporters would claim a mantle of progressivism?
If they see the mantle of "progressivism" as a good thing, why do they espouse conservative policies?
I would think that a politician, liberal or conservative, would want to own their actual ideology. Am I just being naive?
Klinker said:
I would think that a politician, liberal or conservative, would want to own their actual ideology. Am I just being naive?
I’m not that sharp myself, but I’ve gathered that what they want is to win the nomination.
Trump must be elated by Warren's $20 trillion gift (plus $6 trillion contribution for states and vast numbers of unemployed insurance industry layoffs and zero choice for consumers).
dave said:
Trump must be elated by Warren's $20 trillion gift (plus $6 trillion contribution for states and vast numbers of unemployed insurance industry layoffs and zero choice for consumers).
why? If it's as terrible an idea as you're implying, she won't be the nominee.
Found a cartoon that shows a left-to-right scaling. But it's missing some Left (antifa, communists, our own conspiracy mongers/nuts).
That said, I do think the cartoon shows the scaling from the point of view of the Democratic party: that it contains much of the variations of Left. Maybe it would be helpful to realize as a Progressive that there is still much that is farther Left.
sprout said:
Found a cartoon that shows a left-to-right scaling. But it's missing some Left (antifa, communists, our own conspiracy mongers/nuts).
That said, I do think the cartoon shows the scaling from the point of view of the Democratic party: that it contains much of the variations of Left. Maybe it would be helpful to realize as a Progressive that there is still much that is farther Left.
not to mention that the Biden sign should be planted two spaces to the right.
dave said:
Trump must be elated by Warren's $20 trillion gift (plus $6 trillion contribution for states and vast numbers of unemployed insurance industry layoffs and zero choice for consumers).
Somewhere I must still have an old "Doonesbury" cartoon, of a John Anderson press conference. Reporters ask him about one of his proposals, and if he's aware that it could cause some job losses in that industry. He says he is aware, and starts naming the people who will lose their jobs. I think you get the point of that satirical take.
[Edited to add] Found it!
mrincredible said:
And the woman should be wearing a shirt that says "ml1".
My criticisms of centrists are based entirely on the reality of their policies. If you look back at Biden's career right up to becoming VP, he was never a liberal. He was a centrist. He was as responsible for selling the war in Iraq as Colin Powell was. He was instrumental in the policies enacted to help banks at the expense of consumers. The list goes on.
With Biden "centrist" is a description, not an insult.
I think labels are tricky as, in the first place, they are subjective but we talk about them as if they are objective (ask Ridski where the American "Left" maps onto British politics). In the second place, they carry with them their own assumptions -- eg "progressive" is a term that suggests that history has a direction that you can be moving toward, something I personally am not sure I buy into.
Now I guess you could argue that "progressive" just means future-biased, rather than implying that there's an actual "arc of history," and in that sense I'll definitely agree Biden is not progressive. His pitch is "Hey, remember Obama? I was his Vice President! The country is changing but I represent a time before that!" I don't know this makes him "centrist" but it's definitely less a future-oriented orientation than, say, Warren's "big structural change," or even Obama's own campaign.
(I wonder where Sanders would go in this view -- as his supporters like to put it, he's an "FDR" democrat, which in orientation of looking to the past makes him more like a Biden than a Warren, policy aside).
PVW said:
(I wonder where Sanders would go in this view -- as his supporters like to put it, he's an "FDR" democrat, which in orientation of looking to the past makes him more like a Biden than a Warren, policy aside).
The current criticism of Warren by Bernie fans makes Bernie sound like FDR, if FDR said, "We're going to give everyone a pension, but don't ask me how we're going to pay for it."
PVW said:
I think labels are tricky as, in the first place, they are subjective but we talk about them as if they are objective (ask Ridski where the American "Left" maps onto British politics). In the second place, they carry with them their own assumptions -- eg "progressive" is a term that suggests that history has a direction that you can be moving toward, something I personally am not sure I buy into.
Now I guess you could argue that "progressive" just means future-biased, rather than implying that there's an actual "arc of history," and in that sense I'll definitely agree Biden is not progressive. His pitch is "Hey, remember Obama? I was his Vice President! The country is changing but I represent a time before that!" I don't know this makes him "centrist" but it's definitely less a future-oriented orientation than, say, Warren's "big structural change," or even Obama's own campaign.
(I wonder where Sanders would go in this view -- as his supporters like to put it, he's an "FDR" democrat, which in orientation of looking to the past makes him more like a Biden than a Warren, policy aside).
With regard to Biden, there are self-identified centrists here who support him because they call him a centrist as a compliment. But I use the same label for Biden as a reason I'm not supporting him at this point, and somehow that's an insult? I'm applying a "purity test"? Nonsense.
“I’m a centrist” is a statement that hasn’t appeared on MOL since 2012.
DaveSchmidt said:
“I’m a centrist” is a statement that hasn’t appeared on MOL since 2012.
I guess the term "centrist" went out when JLD stopped posting. Is "moderate" the proper term now?
sprout said:
Found a cartoon that shows a left-to-right scaling. But it's missing some Left (antifa, communists, our own conspiracy mongers/nuts).
That said, I do think the cartoon shows the scaling from the point of view of the Democratic party: that it contains much of the variations of Left. Maybe it would be helpful to realize as a Progressive that there is still much that is farther Left.
Characterizing Biden as a liberal in the context of today's Democratic Party is absurd. The man is firmly anchored to the right wing of the party.
ml1 said:
With regard to Biden, there are self-identified centrists here who support him because they call him a centrist as a compliment. But I use the same label for Biden as a reason I'm not supporting him at this point, and somehow that's an insult? I'm applying a "purity test"? Nonsense.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. I very much doubt you're the target of complaints over purity tests.
DaveSchmidt said:
“I’m a centrist” is a statement that hasn’t appeared on MOL since 2012.
I'm a Centrist and proud of it
Everybody is a centrist at some time, depending on where the wings are located.
nohero said:
Everybody is a centrist at some time, depending on where the wings are located.
in 1980 in the U.S. I was a centrist.
PVW said:
I wouldn't worry too much about it. I very much doubt you're the target of complaints over purity tests.
tell that to mrincredible. That's who I was responding to.
Sponsored Business
Promote your business here - Businesses get highlighted throughout the site and you can add a deal.
Rentals
Advertisement
Okay, this is the opening statement of the first paragraph of your thesis. The second line is that progressives are all in favor of Universal Health Care. I'll need 12 Pages, double spaced, one inch margins, single-sided on my desk by Monday morning.