not sure why the photo is sideways ( its not!)

oots said:
give him the $5b-but put the DACA settlement prev agreed upon back in

Why would anyone think he's going to honor a DACA deal after he gets his money? What deal has he ever honored? SALT, Paris accord, Iran, NAFTA?

So the deal is extending DACA protections - what would happen to the dreamers if the was not accepted?  Just doesn't make any sense.  

I say no deal or give him 2 billion - ask for full transparency of how our money (not Mexico's) is being spent.

the dems wont accept it

both sides are stupid at this point

They should offer to give him the money he wants, but not to build a boarder wall, rather to build his Hotel in Moscow, which might relieve him from his dependence on Putin and the oligarchs in return for him resigning (and taking Pence with him).,

Seriously, this Country is in great jeopardy while this scumbag remains in office.

oots said:
the dems wont accept it


both sides are stupid at this point

 And the Dems shouldn't accept it. Trump is throwing a tantrum. Instead of holding his breath, he shut down the government.

That behavior can't be rewarded.

tjohn said:

basil said:

nohero said:
So much for that -

Tests Showed Border Wall Could Be Sawed Through

President Trump “has repeatedly advocated for a steel slat design for his border wall, which he described as ‘absolutely critical to border security’ in his Oval Office address to the nation Tuesday. But Department of Homeland Security testing of a steel slat prototype proved it could be cut through with a saw,” NBC News reports.
“A photo exclusively obtained by NBC News shows the results of the test after experts from the Marine Corps were instructed to attempt to destroy the barriers with common tools.”

Oops

What's the point here.  Walls without defenders are of little value.  I believe that has been known since the Great Wall of China and Hadrian's Wall to name two.

I almost responded because I thought you meant this seriously. Almost got me there buddy!

db,

How long should the Dems hold out?

basil said:

tjohn said:

What's the point here.  Walls without defenders are of little value.  I believe that has been known since the Great Wall of China and Hadrian's Wall to name two.

I almost responded because I thought you meant this seriously. Almost got me there buddy!

 It should be defended like the Berlin Wall, anyone trying to illegally emigrate to West Berlin was shot.

Here is how a terrorist behaves:

- first he puts people in harms way (for example you take people hostage, or you end DACA)
- then he offers to fix that problem in return for something they don't deserve (like freeing some other terrorists, or a lot of money)

So this behavior is nothing new. However there is a reason people say you should never negotiate with terrorists, because if you do they will keep on doing it again if they need anything that they cannot get by other means. What you should do instead is cordon them, take away their microphone, and blind-sight them to solve the problem.

STANV said:
db,
How long should the Dems hold out?

 Forever. Seriously.

The shutdown will end at the 2020 elections, when we'll have three candidates:

- Trump, running on the platform hating Democrats is enough to eke out 270 electoral votes

- A libertarian running on keeping the government shut down, and dissolving the remaining opening parts of it

- The democrat, running on not being one of the other two.

I jest -- mostly. In reality, though, clearly the main problem here is Trump. Someone clearly needs to explain to him the concept of a deal. He seems to think it involves him getting everything he wants while tossing off gestures toward giving the other side half of a half of something they've asked for. This makes it pretty much impossible to actually agree on a deal.  Look at this passage from today's NYT:

"Does that mean that you’re willing to negotiate from what the president said, or is that the final offer?” Mr. Wallace asked again. Mr. Pence replied, “Well, of course. The legislative process is a negotiation.”

But on Twitter, Mr. Trump seemed to be holding fast as he took aim at Ms. Pelosi and pushed back against conservative critics who have described the plan as amnesty for undocumented immigrants.

The idea that there's actually any negotiating to be had is immediately shot down by Trump (and incidentally undercutting his VP again. Why would anyone ever agree to work for such a man who routinely rewards his most loyal supporters by throwing them under the bus?).

There's no deal to be had with this president. This doesn't end until 2/3 of Congress overrides his veto or someone tricks him into accidentally re-opening the government.

oots said:
the dems wont accept it


both sides are stupid at this point

Actually not - negotiating with terrorists doesnt work

This can end three ways:
1) Public opinion turns against the Dems and they blink and give him the money for the wall
2) Public opinion turns against the Republicans and they blink and 2/3 of congress opens the government overriding Trumps veto
3) Trump declares national emergency so he can claim victory, and there will be so many law suits that nothing will happen for a few years

Option #2 would obviously be the preferred option, but I could live with #3 too.

Frankly, basil, I do not think any of those three will happen.

STANV said:
Frankly, basil, I do not think any of those three will happen.

So what do you think will happen instead?

I really do not know but as long as Trump is President any solution is close to impossible.

As to your three options:

1. If the Dems give in to Trump he will just move the goal posts and demand more

2. Enough of them don't care about "public opinion" in general, but just the opinion of "the base" or those who vote in Republican Primaries. Almost any Republican who goes against Trump will lose a Primary.

3.This is the closest to being possible bit for some reason Trump does not want to do it. Perhaps he sees it as a loss.

If the impasse continues Congress must find a way to pay those Federal workers who are being compelled to work; those who are furloughed should be formally laid off so they can collect unemployment and seek other jobs; and the voters can decide in 2020 to give the Dems full control, give the Republicans full control or continue divided government and continue the partial shutdown.

As infuriating as this hostage situation is--and that's essentially what it is, with Trump holding the government hostage--I must admit to taking some small delight observing the corner in which the idiotic wannabe dictator has painted himself. Coulter and Hannity and their ilk will absolutely roast Trump if he gives in, and the press--and hopefully the public-- will roast him if he doesn't. He's really got no move to make, so he's resorting to feeble showmanship, like that offer that really wasn't an offer. Between this mess and the Mueller investigation, I'd like to think that he isn't sleeping too well.

unicorn33 said:
As infuriating as this hostage situation is--and that's essentially what it is, with Trump holding the government hostage--I must admit to taking some small delight observing the corner in which the idiotic wannabe dictator has painted himself. Coulter and Hannity and their ilk will absolutely roast Trump if he gives in, and the press--and hopefully the public-- will roast him if he doesn't. He's really got no move to make, so he's resorting to feeble showmanship, like that offer that really wasn't an offer. Between this mess and the Mueller investigation, I'd like to think that he isn't sleeping too well.

 He already doesn’t sleep too well because of his speed addiction.

drummerboy said:

STANV said:
db,
How long should the Dems hold out?

 Forever. Seriously.

I agree. I'm a federal contract worker who lost three weeks' pay in the 2013 shutdown. I feel terrible for the fed employees and contractors who aren't getting paid, but if he wins now, he'll do it again at the end of the fiscal year (September 30) and the entire government will be shut down. 

Mitch McConnell needs to step out of the way and let the Senate vote on the bills that have been passed by the House.

STANV said:
If the impasse continues Congress must find a way to pay those Federal workers who are being compelled to work; those who are furloughed should be formally laid off so they can collect unemployment and seek other jobs; and the voters can decide in 2020 to give the Dems full control, give the Republicans full control or continue divided government and continue the partial shutdown.

This whole debacle has me wondering how long most of us would last without a pay or unemployment before missing a mortgage or car payment. Aren’t many Americans living paycheck to paycheck? Furloughed employees are potentially facing bankruptcy since they don’t have backpay. 

There are weak kneed Democrats willing to cave:

Some Democrats pressuring leadership to end shutdown stalemate

I say no. Cave to a bully, expect to be bullied more.

BG9 said:
There are weak kneed Democrats willing to cave:
Some Democrats pressuring leadership to end shutdown stalemate
I say no. Cave to a bully, expect to be bullied more.

They need to be reminded daily that this is hurting Trump more than it's hurting them.  His disapproval scores are their highest in almost a year:

Who here thinks that Trump's main purpose with the shutdown is simply to forestall any House investigations into him?

I do.

Trump sees "The Russia Thing" as an attempt to overturn the 2016 Election. He is now projecting and trying to overturn the results of the 2018 Election by forcing the Democratic House of Representatives to give in to him. If they do they will suffer greatly. And it's not just about Political Partisanship. Given the new make-up of the House and the identity of the Speaker it's also about gender. I believe that Nancy Pelosi understands this.

OTOH at the very worst Trump is acting on behalf of Putin to purposely inflict damage on the Country.

The only way this ends is if the Federal Workers being forced to work stop working. And don't say it's illegal. What are they going to do, arrest a couple of hundred thousand people? And who is going to do the arresting?

Federal workers (cough cough TSA) should strike.  Some might say, it's illegal for federal workers to strike..... then they could all call in sick or better yet call in sick at a few select airports which would cripple most of the system.

To me if someone who is not being paid refuses to work it is not a strike.

To me if on pay day your boss doesn't pay you it's the same as his telling you "You're Fired".