Biden's VP Pick
STANV said:
Not "Groper". Klinker's term is "Grabby".
I know it started as "Grabby", but the Tara Reade allegations seem more "Groper" than "Grabby". I don't think it's too late to modify it.
Tara Reade alleges that Biden penetrated her with his fingers. More Groper than Grabby? I guess, if those are the only two choices.
STANV said:
The point is that this is one allegation by one person surfacing only after Biden became the presumptive nominee. It is legitimate to ask why the accuser did not come forward before. I know that victims often are afraid to go public but Biden was VP for 8 years. At any point he could have become POTUS.
If I have learned anything following the Catholic clerical abuse scandal over the last 30 years it is that the victims of sexual abuse have many varied reasons for not airing their stories in public. This is particularly true when their attacker is a powerful man able to orchestrate the sort of media response that has been directed at Tara Reade. It is worth noting that many of the women who came forward with stories of Biden's unwanted touching last year received death threats.
As for the question of why Reade did not come forward to air these complaints during the Obama Administration I can only speculate that perhaps Reade, a life long Democrat, did not want to damage President Obama politically. Of course, that is just pure speculation but it is easy to imagine legitimate reasons.
jamie said:
Klinker - why is the terminology from Reade - and on those on the news - "sexual assault" - but those who don't like Biden call it rape?
I did a little more research on this since it seemed to be a stumbling block for you and came up with the following.
In 2012 the United States Department of Justice updated its definition of the term "rape" to mean "The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”
If that is the accepted definition, then Joe Biden most certainly did rape Tara Reade, if her allegations are true.
Moving forward on this issue, perhaps we can all agree to this definition, for the sake of clarity of discourse.
I'm am very familiar with the definition. All I'm saying is it's those who hate Biden are the ones using that terminology. While people like Reade are praising people like Biden for his work on the Violence Against Women Act via Twitter.
jamie said:
I'm am very familiar with the definition. All I'm saying is it's those who hate Biden are the ones using that terminology. While people like Reade are praising people like Biden for his work on the Violence Against Women Act via Twitter.
I guess that is question for the pro Biden folks. Given the fact that the alleged offense clearly meets the definition of rape, why are they soft peddling it?
Seems kind of damning from where I am sitting.
When the accuser doesn't use this terminology then - why would anyone else?
Do you think she doesn't realize she was raped?
maybe I missed it - please show me where Reade said Biden raped me. Or the police report accusing hijm of rape.
Klinker said:
jamie said:
I'm am very familiar with the definition. All I'm saying is it's those who hate Biden are the ones using that terminology. While people like Reade are praising people like Biden for his work on the Violence Against Women Act via Twitter.
I guess that is question for the pro Biden folks. Given the fact that the alleged offense clearly meets the definition of rape, why are they soft peddling it?
Seems kind of damning from where I am sitting.
Do you think it's fair or appropriate to call Biden a rapist on the basis of one rather dicey allegation?
jamie said:
When the accuser doesn't use this terminology then - why would anyone else?
Because what is being alleged is, legally speaking, rape. Seems pretty simple to me.
Here's the definition again. "The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”
Which part of this do you find confusing?
drummerboy said:
Do you think it's fair or appropriate to call Biden a rapist on the basis of one rather dicey allegation?
No. I do think it is appropriate to call him an "alleged rapist", the key word here being "alleged".
I also reject your use of the term "dicey". As far as I can see, the only thing that makes this allegation more "dicey" than any number of allegations of this sort is that it is against a man who has become the darling of a certain type of Democrat.
Klinker said:
This is particuof larly true when their attacker is a powerful man able to orchestrate the sort of media response that has been directed at Tara Reade. It is worth noting that many of the women who came forward with stories of Biden's unwanted touching last year received death threats.
I am not aware of a negative "media" response as distinguished from Dem politician response. Were those death threats investigated? I have not read of them in the media.
jamie said:
This is a pretty good article:
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I would think Mr. Klinker prefers the response of this potential VP candidate to the response by Stacy Abrams.
Sen. Tammy Duckworth (D-Ill.), one name that has been floated as a potential pick, said on Thursday that anyone who brought forward an allegation deserved “to be listened to.”
In a POLITICO Women Rule interview, Duckworth said that Biden has her support in November and pointed to his record of supporting women. But she said that the allegations needed to be investigated, and that the Biden campaign had to address them.
“I certainly think that we need to thoroughly look at these allegations,” Duckworth said. “It’s why I supported, you know, a real investigation into Dr. Ford’s allegation against Brett Kavanaugh. I know that quite a few number of news outlets that are doing investigative journalism, and I certainly support that moving forward. And I think that the Biden campaign should address this issue, and they have been.”
The above was from this article saying Biden will address the allegation tomorrow morning on MSNBC's Morning Joe
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/30/biden-tara-reade-response-227319
STANV said:
I would think Mr. Klinker prefers the response of this potential VP candidate to the response by Stacy Abrams.
Indeed.
STANV said:
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Klinker said:
drummerboy said:
Do you think it's fair or appropriate to call Biden a rapist on the basis of one rather dicey allegation?
No. I do think it is appropriate to call him an "alleged rapist", the key word here being "alleged".
I also reject your use of the term "dicey". As far as I can see, the only thing that makes this allegation more "dicey" than any number of allegations of this sort is that it is against a man who has become the darling of a certain type of Democrat.
You can reject it all you want, but from what I've read, it's pretty dicey.
drummerboy said:
You can reject it all you want, but from what I've read, it's pretty dicey.
The same can be said about the moon landing, if you pick your reading very carefully. There has definitely been an effort to circle the wagons on this one (as evidenced by the campaign's abortive talking points). I suspect the fullness of time will give all of us a better understanding of the situation.
STANV said:
I would think Mr. Klinker prefers the response of this potential VP candidate to the response by Stacy Abrams.
Sen. Tammy Duckworth (D-Ill.), one name that has been floated as a potential pick, said on Thursday that anyone who brought forward an allegation deserved “to be listened to.”
In a POLITICO Women Rule interview, Duckworth said that Biden has her support in November and pointed to his record of supporting women. But she said that the allegations needed to be investigated, and that the Biden campaign had to address them.
“I certainly think that we need to thoroughly look at these allegations,” Duckworth said. “It’s why I supported, you know, a real investigation into Dr. Ford’s allegation against Brett Kavanaugh. I know that quite a few number of news outlets that are doing investigative journalism, and I certainly support that moving forward. And I think that the Biden campaign should address this issue, and they have been.”
The above was from this article saying Biden will address the allegation tomorrow morning on MSNBC's Morning Joe
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/30/biden-tara-reade-response-227319
Boy that is a decent response. I have been cautious about weighing in, and I started typing a response the other night expressing that if I heard allegations laid out the way Dr. Ford did against Kavanaugh, I would be prepared to make a decision.
And here it is, better phrased. I've been a fan of Tammy Duckworth, and now I feel that my admiration is completely merited. I'd love to hear a response as well from Mazie Hirono, another smart outspoken Dem who tends to say exactly what I'm feeling. And if she wasn't battling cancer, I would toss her name in as a potential VP pick.
Okay, now what? Joe Biden on @Morning_Joe: "This is an open book. There's nothing for me to hide, nothing at all." pic.twitter.com/1Hx6Wj7YYL
Morganna said:
I thought he seemed credible.
Biden says he didn't do it. It all comes down to his credibility. If you think Joe Biden is the sort of guy who would never lie about something important (like going to jail or marching with MLK) then you will be comfortable with his denial. If, on the other hand......
Well, I am left right back where I started. Its hard to know one way or the other.
Klinker said:
Morganna said:
I thought he seemed credible.
Biden says he didn't do it. It all comes down to his credibility. If you think Joe Biden is the sort of guy who would never lie about something important (like going to jail or marching with MLK) then you will be comfortable with his denial. If, on the other hand......
Well, I am left right back where I started. Its hard to know one way or the other.
well, it comes down to Reade's credibility also.
It is a toughie, but I'm tending towards Biden at this point. Klinker said:
Biden says he didn't do it. It all comes down to his credibility. If you think Joe Biden is the sort of guy who would never lie about something important (like going to jail or marching with MLK) then you will be comfortable with his denial. If, on the other hand......
Well, I am left right back where I started. Its hard to know one way or the other.
I posted a response to @mtierney on the other thread that might answer this but the short version is that this seems like something that would be a pattern. He has been in the public eye for years so if there are more such allegations they will come out.
If we are talking about people exaggerating stories, I think many do. It drives me crazy.
I don't equate the touchy feely stuff with this behavior. As I mention on the other thread, I'm a product of the NYC club scene where kissing on both cheeks went along with hugging and a general invasion of everyone's personal space on the dance floor. That is not to say that anyone has to feel the same way that I do. I just don't like the new blurred line between familiarity and rape.
I'll say one thing. FOX is having a party with this. Hannity was grilling Lindsey Graham, who had been furious about the attacks on Kavanaugh and seemed to do his best last night to defend Biden. I don't often align my opinions with Graham but he came to the same conclusion that I did, that it seemed out of character for the Joe Biden he knew.
Klinker said:
Morganna said:
I thought he seemed credible.
Biden says he didn't do it. It all comes down to his credibility. If you think Joe Biden is the sort of guy who would never lie about something important (like going to jail or marching with MLK) then you will be comfortable with his denial. If, on the other hand......
Well, I am left right back where I started. Its hard to know one way or the other.
That's the wrong "If you think Joe Biden is the sort of guy …" test.
Ms. Reade said she made a written complaint. Biden says if she did it would be in the Archives or with the Secretary of the Senate. Either there is a complaint or there isn't one. If there is one let's see what it says.
Of course the people who still believe Obama was born in Kenya will believe Reade's allegations no matter what comes out.
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The point is that this is one allegation by one person surfacing only after Biden became the presumptive nominee. It is legitimate to ask why the accuser did not come forward before. I know that victims often are afraid to go public but Biden was VP for 8 years. At any point he could have become POTUS.