DUMP TRUMP (previously 2020 candidates)

Does anyone know what question he was actually answering? I'm guessing that the question had a criticism for past kind words about Cuba - so he had to respond to that.

I'll try to dig it up.

Here it is:

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COOPER: Back in the 1980s, Sanders had some positive things to say about the former Soviet Union and the Sandinistas in Nicaragua.

Here he is explaining why the Cuban people didn't rise up and help the U.S. overthrow Cuban leader Fidel Castro: "…he educated their kids, gave them health care, totally transformed the society, you know?"

SANDERS: We're very opposed to the authoritarian nature of Cuba but you know, it's unfair to simply say everything is bad. You know? When Fidel Castro came into office, you know what he did? He had a massive literacy program. Is that a bad thing? Even though Fidel Castro did it?

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He sort of had to make the literacy statement, didn't he?

It's really a shame that such an inconsequential answer creates such an uproar - whether feigned or real.

drummerboy said:

He sort of had to make the literacy statement, didn't he?

 Not really, no.

drummerboy said:

Here it is:

========================================

COOPER: Back in the 1980s, Sanders had some positive things to say about the former Soviet Union and the Sandinistas in Nicaragua.

Here he is explaining why the Cuban people didn't rise up and help the U.S. overthrow Cuban leader Fidel Castro: "…he educated their kids, gave them health care, totally transformed the society, you know?"

SANDERS: We're very opposed to the authoritarian nature of Cuba but you know, it's unfair to simply say everything is bad. You know? When Fidel Castro came into office, you know what he did? He had a massive literacy program. Is that a bad thing? Even though Fidel Castro did it?

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He sort of had to make the literacy statement, didn't he?

It's really a shame that such an inconsequential answer creates such an uproar - whether feigned or real.

 it's probably 99% feigned. 

PVW said:

 My complaint is that "We're very opposed to the authoritarian nature of Cuba" needs no qualification.

Some other examples of statements I wouldn't want to hear, that we could imaging other pols making:

"We're very opposed to Orban's hollowing out of Hungarian democracy, but..."

"We're very opposed to Stop and Frisk, but..."

"We're very opposed to Russia's meddling in US domestic elections, but..."

If a statement needs a qualifier, how much weight should we place on it?

"Some of them are my best friends, but …"

drummerboy said:

Morganna said:

I'm uncomfortable with the way Cuban exiles are described in some of these posts...

Speaking for myself, I have thought for many years that the Florida Cuban-exile community has distorted our foreign policy for the worst. Their out-sized influence on Florida's electoral politics has been a scourge for decades.

In your opinion, how has the Florida Cuban-exile community distorted our foreign policy?

My POV is that we should have lifted the US' trade embargo with Cuba earlier.  However, I am interested in your POV on these distortions in US foreign policy..

ml1 said:

drummerboy said:

It's really a shame that such an inconsequential answer creates such an uproar - whether feigned or real.

 it's probably 99% feigned. 

PVW, the One Percenter.

A follow-up comment from Sanders yesterday: “China is an authoritarian country, becoming more and more authoritarian. But can anyone deny, the facts are clear, that they have taken more people out of extreme poverty than any country in history?”

What would you, drummerboy and ml1, say distinguishes views like this from the long-mocked “Mussolini made the trains run on time”?

Can Bernie win? Absolutely — and I don't even support him

DaveSchmidt said:

ml1 said:

drummerboy said:

It's really a shame that such an inconsequential answer creates such an uproar - whether feigned or real.

 it's probably 99% feigned. 

PVW, the One Percenter.

A follow-up comment from Sanders yesterday: “China is an authoritarian country, becoming more and more authoritarian. But can anyone deny, the facts are clear, that they have taken more people out of extreme poverty than any country in history?”

What would you, drummerboy and ml1, say distinguishes views like this from the long-mocked “Mussolini made the trains run on time”?

 heaven forbid that the world be viewed as shades of gray rather than black and white.

drummerboy said:

heaven forbid that the world be viewed as shades of gray rather than black and white.

The way I see it, the separation of black (literacy, poverty relief, train schedules) from white (authoritarianism) is where the gray comes in here. You may see it differently.

So...who do we like in '24?

drummerboy said:

DaveSchmidt said:

ml1 said:

drummerboy said:

It's really a shame that such an inconsequential answer creates such an uproar - whether feigned or real.

 it's probably 99% feigned. 

PVW, the One Percenter.

A follow-up comment from Sanders yesterday: “China is an authoritarian country, becoming more and more authoritarian. But can anyone deny, the facts are clear, that they have taken more people out of extreme poverty than any country in history?”

What would you, drummerboy and ml1, say distinguishes views like this from the long-mocked “Mussolini made the trains run on time”?

 heaven forbid that the world be viewed as shades of gray rather than black and white.

 I admire Chinese culture and traditions.  However, China's current treatment of the Ugyhur (AKA Uighur) minority group is shameful.  See:  https://www.vox.com/2018/8/15/17684226/uighur-china-camps-united-nations

Also see:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocide_of_Uyghurs_in_China

DaveSchmidt said:

PVW, the One Percenter.

A follow-up comment from Sanders yesterday: “China is an authoritarian country, becoming more and more authoritarian. But can anyone deny, the facts are clear, that they have taken more people out of extreme poverty than any country in history?”

What would you, drummerboy and ml1, say distinguishes views like this from the long-mocked “Mussolini made the trains run on time”?

When I saw the full context of the statement, it clearly isn't that. There isn't much to be done if people want to dishonestly claim it is, other than point out the dishonesty.  

ml1 said:

Can Bernie win? Absolutely — and I don't even support him

 I am glad for you posting this article. If for no other reason it gives us thia sentence regarding the immediate aftermath of the 2008 election:

Glenn Beck and the entire conservative entertainment complex lost its bug-eyed shpadoinkle, accusing Obama of being the new Stalin-meets-Hitler (somehow).

For me, reading about how Obama's election blew up conservative minds is roughly the same as watching Mookie's grounder go through Buckner's legs. It harkens me back to a time of great joy and helps me forget the current mess. 

Here's a tweet from Bob Cesca, writer of the aforementioned Salon piece on Bernie's chances:

You know how Trump will be re-elected? Liberals and NeverTrumpers handing him pre-packaged oppo and attack ad material against the top tier Democrats. Stop it. Pitch your candidate, love your candidate, but stop helping Trump.

— Bob Cesca (@bobcesca_go) february"="" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/bobcesca_go/status/1232351817234812930?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 25, 2020

ml1 said:

When I saw the full context of the statement, it clearly isn't that. There isn't much to be done if people want to dishonestly claim it is, other than point out the dishonesty.  

I crossed my fingers as I typed. It wasn’t easy.

ml1 said:

 there is a very strong argument that the misogynistic and racist actions in his past make Bloomberg uniquely least likely to be able to beat Trump. 

 It didn't hurt Trump. I think being seen as a communist is more detrimental to the candidate. And the Republicans will use this to the max. Bernie can't win Florida. It's not only exiled Cubans in Florida now, there's Venezuelan exiles and a lot from other leftist regimes there now. Bernie is not very liked down there. Trump will use these Latinos for his rallies. Bernie is bad news.

DaveSchmidt said:

I crossed my fingers as I typed. It wasn’t easy.

 do you personally believe those statements are the same as "Mussolini made the trains run on time"?  

Jaytee said:

 It didn't hurt Trump. I think being seen as a communist is more detrimental to the candidate. And the Republicans will use this to the max. Bernie can't win Florida. It's not only exiled Cubans in Florida now, there's Venezuelan exiles and a lot from other leftist regimes there now. Bernie is not very liked down there. Trump will use these Latinos for his rallies. Bernie is bad news.

those are some pretty 100% absolutely certain statements you're making there.  What are you basing them on?

mrincredible said:

Here's a tweet from Bob Cesca, writer of the aforementioned Salon piece on Bernie's chances:

You know how Trump will be re-elected? Liberals and NeverTrumpers handing him pre-packaged oppo and attack ad material against the top tier Democrats. Stop it. Pitch your candidate, love your candidate, but stop helping Trump.

— Bob Cesca (@bobcesca_go) february"="" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/bobcesca_go/status/1232351817234812930?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 25, 2020

 I don't disagree.  Frankly I'm surprised at some of the criticism of Sanders here, which is more of a "gotcha" nature than substantive.

I've been supporting Warren all along, and if by some chance she's still a contender in June, I'm voting for her.  But I'm not going to try to build up her chances by taking BS pot shots at Bernie that are the kind of nonsense that will feed into the right wingosphere attempted takedown of Sanders if he's the nominee.

ml1 said:

do you personally believe those statements are the same as "Mussolini made the trains run on time"?

I believed there was enough gray between them to make it worth mulling over in my own mind, while asking what you and drummerboy thought.

The “buts” can sound like a semantic separation: “Putting that (authoritarianism) aside ...” If they’re something else — an invitation to discuss the primacy, or not, of the problem of authoritarianism in societies that show progress in some areas — then Mussolini/trains, Castro/literacy and China/antipoverty strike me as just different shades of gray.

mrincredible said:

I also wonder how bitter the sniping will get within the Democratic party. 

 November 20, 2018.

DaveSchmidt said:

I believed there was enough gray between them to make it worth mulling over in my own mind, while asking what you and drummerboy thought.

The “buts” can sound like a semantic separation: “Putting that (authoritarianism) aside ...” If they’re something else — an invitation to discuss the primacy, or not, of the problem of authoritarianism in societies that show progress in some areas — then Mussolini/trains, Castro/literacy and China/antipoverty strike me as just different shades of gray.

 I'm kind of surprised that a person like yourself who tries to assume good faith, and not read negatives into people's statements would even consider that Sanders was speaking in that manner.

I think the difficult part for Sanders is the bad faith questions/arguments of those who claim that socialism and totalitarianism are the same thing.  It forces him to explain that Cuba or China or Venezuela's totalitarianism needs to be separated from the socialism that gave the people health care or improved living standards.  Maybe Bernie should just refuse to even answer, and say those comparisons are completely beside the point, and he can cite Sweden or France as examples of what his brand of "socialism" should be trying to aspire to.

ml1 said:

DaveSchmidt said:

I believed there was enough gray between them to make it worth mulling over in my own mind, while asking what you and drummerboy thought.

The “buts” can sound like a semantic separation: “Putting that (authoritarianism) aside ...” If they’re something else — an invitation to discuss the primacy, or not, of the problem of authoritarianism in societies that show progress in some areas — then Mussolini/trains, Castro/literacy and China/antipoverty strike me as just different shades of gray.

 I'm kind of surprised that a person like yourself who tries to assume good faith, and not read negatives into people's statements would even consider that Sanders was speaking in that manner.

I think the difficult part for Sanders is the bad faith questions/arguments of those who claim that socialism and totalitarianism are the same thing.  It forces him to explain that Cuba or China or Venezuela's totalitarianism needs to be separated from the socialism that gave the people health care or improved living standards.  Maybe Bernie should just refuse to even answer, and say those comparisons are completely beside the point, and he can cite Sweden or France as examples of what his brand of "socialism" should be trying to aspire to.

Or he could just say "in my youth, when the Cuban revolution was new, I thought it had a lot of promise. Now, with the benefits of history, I can see that it led to an authoritarian state opposed to the democratic ideals I believe in. Countries like Denmark and Sweden -- liberal democracies with commitment to the social welfare of their citizens -- should be our model."

That would reassure people who see his youthful idealization of events like the Cuban revolution and wonder what he's learned from the perspective of an older, wiser vantage point.

PVW said:

Or he could just say "in my youth, when the Cuban revolution was new, I thought it had a lot of promise. Now, with the benefits of history, I can see that it led to an authoritarian state opposed to the democratic ideals I believe in. Countries like Denmark and Sweden -- liberal democracies with commitment to the social welfare of their citizens -- should be our model."

That would reassure people who see his youthful idealization of events like the Cuban revolution and wonder what he's learned from the perspective of an older, wiser vantage point.

 from the context of the exchange in the transcript, I don't think that would have answered the question.  But maybe you're right and he should have just pivoted away from it.

Does anyone regarding Sanders in good faith really think his model for the U.S. is Cuba or Venezuela?  To me this is people looking for reasons not to support him.  It's not all that different to me than the people who claimed that Obama hated America and went on an "apology tour."  I think it is ludicrous on its face to suggest that a person elected and reelected many times by the people of Vermont actually idolizes authoritarian regimes.

ml1 said:

 I'm kind of surprised that a person like yourself who tries to assume good faith, and not read negatives into people's statements would even consider that Sanders was speaking in that manner.

PVW got me thinking.

Another occasion to reference Obama as a contrast:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_More_Perfect_Union

I think it's always a fair question how a candidate's views have changed over time. In fairness, though, if comparisons to Trump are a very low bar to clear, expecting as eloquent a response as Obama's is probably unreasonably high.

DaveSchmidt said:

PVW got me thinking.

 Then I'm surprised a few minutes of thinking didn't bring you to the conclusion that ascribing malign intent to Sanders is a mistake.

PVW said:

Another occasion to reference Obama as a contrast:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_More_Perfect_Union

I think it's always a fair question how a candidate's views have changed over time. In fairness, though, if comparisons to Trump are a very low bar to clear, expecting as eloquent a response as Obama's is probably unreasonably high.

 I guess I should ask flat out then.  Do you personally truly believe Sanders admires authoritarian leaders?

I remember the good old days when we were told that Hillary had been a "Goldwater Girl", so that made her iffy.

I wish Bernie would just cover all the various things that people are going to dig up anyway, and deal with them.