South Mountain Tavern closed

I can't think of any of the liquor licenses that have been transferred in the last 18 -20 years that have been successful, with the exception of Papillon 25.  

- Original Giorgio's license was transferred to Voro. 

-Voro went bust and license transferred to Above. 

-Above transferred to 1 South. 

-I don't recall where the liquor license was transferred to the first place that opened in the Stuft Shirt space (South Mountain Tavern.) That license was transferred three times. 

-Papillon 25 has been in business for about 18? years. I don't recall where it got its license. 

eta - I think Landmark, the developer and operator of the restaurant/beer hall in Village Hall, got its liquor license from Cryan's. 

rbcole123 said:
I think a good model would be Coda in Maplewood.  Coda's food is ok (about same as Ricalton's/South Mountain Tavern), but at a lower price point, and the place is consistently packed. Most people don't want to spend $28-40 per entree, plus tax and tip, on a consistent basis.

 IMO, Coda's menu and food is much better than Ricalton's.  Coda also has a variety of price points and dish sizes...

In Maplewood you have Coda and the Cassidy as recent additions. I don't know where Coda got theirs.

I haven't been into The Cassidy, but I know there was some early enthusiasm. Anyone know how they've been doing lately? 

So overall I agree with Cramer. You have long-standing licensed establishments like the Gate, Verjus, Toro Loco, The Gaslight and Bunny's (which I think opened roughly when fermentation was invented   ). A bunch of more recent endeavors have fizzled. I'll stick to my guns about the liquor license cost, but in the broader context of the costs of opening a new restaurant that meets the needs and wants of the SOMA crowd:

- modern esthetic 

- interesting cocktails

- delicious food

- an expertly curated rotating selection of microbrews on tap

- a lively atmosphere that's not too loud

- not too expensive!

and good service !

we also have the new italian joint from the lorena folks at the old highland place.

liquor license and major renovation in progress.  price points remain to be seen.

oots said:
we also have the new italian joint from the lorena folks at the old highland place.
liquor license and major renovation in progress.  price points remain to be seen.

 Hm... my bet is $35 steak and $39 osso bucco.

rhw said:
and good service !

 I forgot the well-trained, attractive and knowledgeable service staff. 

mrincredible said:
In Maplewood you have Coda and the Cassidy as recent additions. I don't know where Coda got theirs.
I haven't been into The Cassidy, but I know there was some early enthusiasm. Anyone know how they've been doing lately? 
So overall I agree with Cramer. You have long-standing licensed establishments like the Gate, Verjus, Toro Loco, The Gaslight and Bunny's (which I think opened roughly when fermentation was invented   ). A bunch of more recent endeavors have fizzled. I'll stick to my guns about the liquor license cost, but in the broader context of the costs of opening a new restaurant that meets the needs and wants of the SOMA crowd:
- modern esthetic 
- interesting cocktails
- delicious food
- an expertly curated rotating selection of microbrews on tap
- a lively atmosphere that's not too loud
- not too expensive!

Regarding your first point ....  

One thing that I think Noodle Fan was missing was any kind of aesthetic whatsoever.  It was just a room with chairs and tables, with no attempt at decoration.  The place brought out agoraphobia in me and I only ate there once (but got takeout often)

Noodle Fan was neither a hole in the wall, nor an interesting looking restaurant.  

(I'm not saying that the looks of the restaurant was Noodle Fan's only problem, eg, location.)

Did anyone else here have the same disappointments with Noodle Fan?  

mrincredible said:

Baldwin said:

mrincredible said:
My usual response to this.
Rumor is the liquor license cost $500K for the owners of Ricalton's (South Mountain Tavern) to acquire. I think that's a huge hill for a new business to climb right at the starting line. Of course your prices will be inflated if you're saddled with half a million to pay back.
I think the state's liquor license laws have strangled some potential developments in the two towns. 

 Naw, people buy things they really can not afford all the time. 

 ... It's a catch-22 of doing business. ...

 Catch-22 ... if I had a fish place on route 22 that's what I would call it.

How has Bill and Harry's stayed in business so long? A very plain interior and the food is so-so. The owners are lovely and remember my name which is an added plus. Maybe I'll stop by tomorrow.

Noodle fan had the most inept restaurant management I’ve encountered in our town. And remarkably un-customer focused.  Decor wasn’t great, but when things went well the food was good 

Recent iteration of Ricaltons - the decor was so old school it was painful.  It’s neither a place I enjoyed sitting down to dinner and not a place where I felt the food/service equaled the value charged 

Folks seem to be referring to Noodlefan in the past tense, but I believe it is back, or at least it looked that way when I strolled by earlier this week...

I think the liquor license cost is an issue if the owner expects to recoup the full cost in one year.  Coda does well because the food is good and they offer a wide selection of moderate priced dishes.  Village Tavern (previously Ricaltons, Lot 15, Village Cellar) as well as One South (previously Above) have both been lacking in having a 5 year business plan and were hoping that people would gladly overpay for mediocre food and service.  These places are very large and need to attract a large number of patrons and the best way to do that is with entrees under $20.00 and decent service.  If the places were crowded (like CODA or Toro Loco) they would be successful in every sense.

mrincredible said:
In Maplewood you have Coda and the Cassidy as recent additions. I don't know where Coda got theirs.
I haven't been into The Cassidy, but I know there was some early enthusiasm. Anyone know how they've been doing lately? 
So overall I agree with Cramer. You have long-standing licensed establishments like the Gate, Verjus, Toro Loco, The Gaslight and Bunny's (which I think opened roughly when fermentation was invented   ). A bunch of more recent endeavors have fizzled. I'll stick to my guns about the liquor license cost, but in the broader context of the costs of opening a new restaurant that meets the needs and wants of the SOMA crowd:
- modern esthetic 
- interesting cocktails
- delicious food
- an expertly curated rotating selection of microbrews on tap
- a lively atmosphere that's not too loud
- not too expensive!

I have been to bar at The Cassidy several times but have not eaten a meal there yet.

The bar is cool but way to loud for my middle-aged ears.  I have a hard time carrying on a conversation there.  They have good beer but I wish the list was longer. So many good craft beers available these days, why have a short beer list?

I would love to see a great Cuban restaurant in that spot. Something other than overpriced stuff I can make at home, Italian food, or burgers. Over saturated with unimaginative restaurants in SO.

I tried to like Ricalton's.  And fwiw, I thought they had a few good wines available by the glass, and a nice burger.  But I thought the dining room space didn't have a particularly great ambience, the entrees weren't worth the price, and the beer and liquor selections were lackluster.

I'm no expert on running a food/drink establishment, but I think it's hard to succeed in our area without the following, because these have become the norm in a lot of established places:

• Good selection of locally-sourced craft beers.
• Quality, well-curated menu of wines by the glass and affordable bottle selections
• Craft cocktails (I think Cassidy does this well)
• Creative small plates on the bar menu
• Focused dinner menu that has 3-4 specialties that they knock out of the park, and others that change according to season.
• Fun bar atmosphere (and from what I've heard, and my own personal opinion, an atmosphere that isn't deafeningly loud)

I don't know if this would work, but I think in a space that large, dividing into smaller rooms might improve the atmosphere, and make it look like it's more popular.  On a slow night, close a room, so that people don't have the sense that the dining room is mostly empty.  And they're already part way there with the Snug and the front bar being separate rooms.  Divide the dining room in half, and the place will always look popular and full.

But who knows, maybe a place that big is just not going to be able to make expenses in a town like South Orange.  I hope someone can make a go of it, and I'll be rooting for them, and I'll give them a try.

annielou said:
I would love to see a great Cuban restaurant in that spot. Something other than overpriced stuff I can make at home, Italian food, or burgers. Over saturated with unimaginative restaurants in SO.

To your point, that space is huge and they could divide it into a few spaces. Keep the pub downstairs, do a family-friendly American restaurant  with part of the upstairs and maybe set up a different part of the upstairs for something out of the ordinary. 

I wouldn't pretend to know anything about running a place like that, like could you run different cuisines out of the same kitchen? You'd need a head chef who could handle completely different menus.

If I remember there's a space close to the Village Plaza side that could be a completely separate bar / cocktail lounge / dining area with a different vibe than the main restaurant.

mrincredible said:

oots said:
we also have the new italian joint from the lorena folks at the old highland place.
liquor license and major renovation in progress.  price points remain to be seen.

 Hm... my bet is $35 steak and $39 osso bucco.

rhw said:
and good service !

 I forgot the well-trained, attractive and knowledgeable service staff. 

IIRC I think the plan is also to have homemade pastas and some lighter dishes on the menu, and not all at upper price points.  Less full-blown restaurant and more bistro.  

Smedley said:
Folks seem to be referring to Noodlefan in the past tense, but I believe it is back, or at least it looked that way when I strolled by earlier this week...

Maybe they’ll start to catch the overflow demand created when people can’t get into Ani but still have the craving. 

On the Cuban restaurant angle (or any other ethnicity) I think we here in SOMA have a tendency to overestimate the demand for highly specific ethnic cuisines, especially in a space that big.  Although that being said I think Cuban Pete's in Montclair is usually really busy.  But I would bet you that given their status as one of the few Cuban places around they draw people from a wide geographic area, including ours.

That being said, I think it's time I started a thread about Bay Leaf.

ctrzaska said:

Smedley said:
Folks seem to be referring to Noodlefan in the past tense, but I believe it is back, or at least it looked that way when I strolled by earlier this week...

Maybe they’ll start to catch the overflow demand created when people can’t get into Ani but still have the craving. 

 Is Noodle Fan back?

I just called them to check and no one answered the phone.

Maybe someone here could confirm if Noodle Fan is open?

If they are, I'm happy because I did like NF for takeout.

annielou said:
I would love to see a great Cuban restaurant in that spot. Something other than overpriced stuff I can make at home, Italian food, or burgers. Over saturated with unimaginative restaurants in SO.

A Cuban restaurant, 1958 Cuban Cuisine, opened in Westfield last year -  it's  wildly popular. 

A Cuban Pete's. 

Been to Cuban Pete’s, 1958, and a bunch of non-chain Cuban spots in South Florida. Always packed.

annielou said:
Been to Cuban Pete’s, 1958, and a bunch of non-chain Cuban spots in South Florida. Always packed.

 Padrino's?

I walked past the Snug just now. 'Tis open and quite a lively scene indeed.

Snug is a decent place. I wonder what the plan is though, because I doubt Snug is enough to carry the enterprise. I always pegged Snug as kind of the add-on to the upstairs place, not the main breadwinner. 

I heard last night that the restaurant has new owners and is going to open as a new place.

FilmCarp said:
I heard last night that the restaurant has new owners and is going to open as a new place.

 I hope so-the right management should be able to make a go of it.

Smedley said:
Folks seem to be referring to Noodlefan in the past tense, but I believe it is back, or at least it looked that way when I strolled by earlier this week...

 I don't know if it is back, but the food in South Orange wasn't as good, or certainly as consistent, as the Noodle Fan in Union, which is a smaller but far better restaurant with the same menu.  And the service was friendly but inept.  I realize going to Union is a schlep, but if you hanker for a better version of the same restaurant, it's a feasible option.

dianaid said:

Smedley said:
Folks seem to be referring to Noodlefan in the past tense, but I believe it is back, or at least it looked that way when I strolled by earlier this week...

 I don't know if it is back, but the food in South Orange wasn't as good, or certainly as consistent, as the Noodle Fan in Union, which is a smaller but far better restaurant with the same menu.  And the service was friendly but inept.  I realize going to Union is a schlep, but if you hanker for a better version of the same restaurant, it's a feasible option.

 Hi, I checked out Noodle Fan today and I can confirm that it is open.  

oots said:

FilmCarp said:
I heard last night that the restaurant has new owners and is going to open as a new place.

 I hope so-the right management should be able to make a go of it.

Deja vu all over again.