Since when is it okay to have a creche on public property?
Smedley said:
Menorahs are lit in public places in SOMA. Should this ritual be retired along with the creche?
https://villagegreennj.com/holiday/photos-soma-begins-hanukkah-with-south-orange-menorah-lighting/
Yes it should be discontinued.
mtierney said:
this thread was started to poison conversation here — it worked.
It is easy to spread hate, and so very hard to understand others
and it is happening right here, in sophisticated, liberal, affluent Maplewood!
Actually, I started the conversation to note that it is inappropriate, offensive (and a possible violation of the nonestablishment clause of the 1st) to put Jesus on property paid for with tax dollars. The only one spreading hate is you. Worship however you see fit, just keep your Jesus off municipal property.
Smedley said:
Menorahs are lit in public places in SOMA. Should this ritual be retired along with the creche?
https://villagegreennj.com/holiday/photos-soma-begins-hanukkah-with-south-orange-menorah-lighting/
Yes it should be discontinued.
joanne said:
Smedley said:The thing that's puzzled me is, over here, 'crèche' is a place for minding young children (like a nursery school, pre-school, infant-minding Centre etc). I've gathered what you're all referring to is what we'd call the 'cradle', 'crib' or especially in a nativity scene, the 'manger'.
Like a hangover, a gained 10 lbs or a relative who’s overstayed his/her welcome, this thread is proof positive that it’s time to put away the toys and de-Christmas the house.
Bring on January!
Your discussion has been most enlightening. Thank you! Happy new year!
Confused me, too.
joanne said:
Your discussion has been most enlightening.
A creche course, then.
Many of you make good points. As I would not be bothered by displays of religions other than Christianity, I failed to imagine how others would. I love me some Jesus but my beliefs shouldn't have the need to bully other's. We have a lovely Nativity scene on our front porch. Perhaps it would be best to keep symbols of all religions off of public property.
Maplewood is almost 4 square miles of overwhelmingly private property. We're discussing the use of a relatively tiny public green space. My opinion and that of at least some of the others posting here, is that the little space should not be used for any religious symbols, including our own. How does that prompt you to shout "hate!", MTierney? It's a pretty inflammatory accusation. Explain.
Should NJ Transit allow a menorah in the train station?
Why is it easier to get riled up about Christmas or Christian symbols, but more difficult concerning Jewish or Islamic symbols?
Jesus Christ was born in what in Palestine....and he looked a lot like some of the same people who can't stand the mention of his name...
Religion has killed more people than it has saved.
Maybe it's time to stop using the Bible to swear in politicians.
LOST said:
Here is the problem.
Many citizens of Maplewood belong to a group with a collective memory of having been persecuted for refusing to accept the belief symbolized by the crèche.
Should we "get over it"? Maybe
1492.
eta - Can understand the "maybe."
Jaytee said:
Should NJ Transit allow a menorah in the train station?
Why is it easier to get riled up about Christmas or Christian symbols, but more difficult concerning Jewish or Islamic symbols?
Jesus Christ was born in what in Palestine....and he looked a lot like some of the same people who can't stand the mention of his name...
Religion has killed more people than it has saved.
Maybe it's time to stop using the Bible to swear in politicians.
If you feel compelled to go down the this-is-really-about-the persecution-of-Christians road, I guess there's no stopping you. One poster expressed particular discomfort with Christian symbols in the public square but I think the general theme has simply been about the religion/state line. And who are the people "who can't stand" the mention of Jesus' name, how do you know he looked like such people, and why would would they take comfort in Jesus' physical appearance?
To the extent this argument, when it comes up, seems to be more about Christianity than other religions, its because these battles about the church/state line, whether its prayer in schools, the teaching of "intelligent" design, or creches in the public square, tend to be spearheaded by Christian groups, which is not surprising given that it is the religion of the vast majority of Americans.
David Lee Roth lights the menorah. So do James Caan, Kirk Douglas, and the late Dinah Shore-ah.
guy said:Actually, I started the conversation to note that it is inappropriate, offensive (and a possible violation of the nonestablishment clause of the 1st) to put Jesus on property paid for with tax dollars. The only one spreading hate is you. Worship however you see fit, just keep your Jesus off municipal property.
And this point of view makes this non-observant Christian more supportive of religions whereas the contrary is my default impulse.
even HUD doesn’t get it right...I think that if we all viewed Ricalton Park as
a “common “ area, rather than “public,” there would be less tension and more acceptance.
Sad note, the 26 year old reporter who wrote this, her last story, died of a virus while on an assignment in California.
mtierney said:
even HUD doesn’t get it right...I think that if we all viewed Ricalton Park as
a “common “ area, rather than “public,” there would be less tension and more acceptance.
http://thefederalist.com/2018/12/20/catholic-senior-living-center-bans-residents-saying-merry-christmas/
Sad note, the 26 year old reporter who wrote this, her last story, died of a virus while on an assignment in California.
The Left wants you to think it was a virus, but I think we all know what is going on here.
mtierney said:
even HUD doesn’t get it right...I think that if we all viewed Ricalton Park as
a “common “ area, rather than “public,” there would be less tension and more acceptance.
http://thefederalist.com/2018/12/20/catholic-senior-living-center-bans-residents-saying-merry-christmas/
Sad note, the 26 year old reporter who wrote this, her last story, died of a virus while on an assignment in California.
How does HUD not get it right, in your opinion?
For those who haven’t read the article, it quotes this 2007 HUD press release:
The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development continues to strongly support and respect the display of all religious symbols on properties receiving HUD assistance. We discourage anyone from interfering in the free exercise of religion and prohibiting residents from celebrating the joys of the season.
Jaytee said:
...Maybe it's time to stop using the Bible to swear in politicians.
Agreed. Always found this curious.
jimmurphy said:
Jaytee said:Agreed. Always found this curious.
...Maybe it's time to stop using the Bible to swear in politicians.
"You Don’t Need to Take an Oath on a Bible, or Any Religious Text"
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/13/us/politics/roy-moore-bible-ted-crockett.html
dave said:
Maplewood should do what South Orange did. Buy a Tony Smith sculpture and let that distract everyone from putting religious objects on secular ground.
The "Tau" sculpture is a religious object for some people.
At least, it seemed that way when it was being debated.
mtierney said:
this thread was started to poison conversation here — it worked.
Nonsense. It was a normal conversation starter.
Original Post:
guy said:
I noticed that Dickens Village includes a creche this year. This seems inappropriate to me. Are people really okay with use of public property to promote a particular religion (or any at all)?
mtierney said:
LOST said:Also, another person connected the crèche to a reminder of persecution.
Here is the problem.
Many citizens of Maplewood belong to a group with a collective memory of having been persecuted for refusing to accept the belief symbolized by the crèche.
Should we "get over it"? Maybe
What ever happened to our troll, Guy? Stirred the pot and ran?
I was trying to explain the perspective of many Jewish people. We were dispersed through many countries, almost all of which considered us foreigners even if we had been there for 1000 years. We were persecuted for being different.
When you put a Christian symbol on public land some Jewish people see it as an attempt to make being a Christian synonymous with being American, telling us that while we can live here and have all the rights of citizens we will never really be American. I know it is difficult for a Christian to understand that but you can try.
mtierney:
This article may help you understand.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/30/world/middleeast/israel-novy-god-ashdod.html
tjohn said:
mtierney said:The Left wants you to think it was a virus, but I think we all know what is going on here.
even HUD doesn’t get it right...I think that if we all viewed Ricalton Park as
a “common “ area, rather than “public,” there would be less tension and more acceptance.
http://thefederalist.com/2018/12/20/catholic-senior-living-center-bans-residents-saying-merry-christmas/
Sad note, the 26 year old reporter who wrote this, her last story, died of a virus while on an assignment in California.
?
If your comment was an attempt at a wisecrack, it is so off the mark and cruel.
LOST said:
mtierney said:Nonsense. It was a normal conversation starter.
this thread was started to poison conversation here — it worked.
Original Post:
guy said:
I noticed that Dickens Village includes a creche this year. This seems inappropriate to me. Are people really okay with use of public property to promote a particular religion (or any at all)?
At this time of year, it was mean-spirited and targeted to denigrate a Christian Holy Day. The crèche was the problem — not a secular ode to Dickens.
I’ll start a thread during Holy Week to ban the Easter Bunny, colored eggs, candy, jelly beans, and stupid decorations of hens, chicks, and bunnies. Insist on a ban of the sale of live bunnies, as well! No religious connection to the Crucified Jesus.
cramer said:
LOST said:1492.
Here is the problem.
Many citizens of Maplewood belong to a group with a collective memory of having been persecuted for refusing to accept the belief symbolized by the crèche.
Should we "get over it"? Maybe
eta - Can understand the "maybe."
Exactly! The Spanish Inquisition is a much closer reference to reactions expressed here than the Holocaust.
mtierney said:
I’ll start a thread during Holy Week to ban the Easter Bunny, colored eggs, candy, jelly beans, and stupid decorations of hens, chicks, and bunnies. Insist on a ban of the sale of live bunnies, as well! No religious connection to the Crucified Jesus.
Can we ask the TC to erect a life-sized crucifix in Ricalton Square for Easter? Our taxes aren't nearly low enough, we should pay for its installation and storage.
Maybe we could get some volunteers to actually be crucified, like they do in the Philippines.
That way we can keep our eggs and bunnies and other pagan items.
ridski said:
mtierney said:Can we ask the TC to erect a life-sized crucifix in Ricalton Square for Easter? Our taxes aren't nearly low enough, we should pay for its installation and storage.
I’ll start a thread during Holy Week to ban the Easter Bunny, colored eggs, candy, jelly beans, and stupid decorations of hens, chicks, and bunnies. Insist on a ban of the sale of live bunnies, as well! No religious connection to the Crucified Jesus.
Maybe we could get some volunteers to actually be crucified, like they do in the Philippines.
That way we can keep our eggs and bunnies and other pagan items.
We do have an Easter Egg Hunt in Memorial Park.
yahooyahoo said:
ridski said:We do have an Easter Egg Hunt in Memorial Park.
mtierney said:Can we ask the TC to erect a life-sized crucifix in Ricalton Square for Easter? Our taxes aren't nearly low enough, we should pay for its installation and storage.
I’ll start a thread during Holy Week to ban the Easter Bunny, colored eggs, candy, jelly beans, and stupid decorations of hens, chicks, and bunnies. Insist on a ban of the sale of live bunnies, as well! No religious connection to the Crucified Jesus.
Maybe we could get some volunteers to actually be crucified, like they do in the Philippines.
That way we can keep our eggs and bunnies and other pagan items.
Bloody pagans.
guy said:
mtierney said:Actually, I started the conversation to note that it is inappropriate, offensive (and a possible violation of the nonestablishment clause of the 1st) to put Jesus on property paid for with tax dollars. The only one spreading hate is you. Worship however you see fit, just keep your Jesus off municipal property.
this thread was started to poison conversation here — it worked.
It is easy to spread hate, and so very hard to understand others
and it is happening right here, in sophisticated, liberal, affluent Maplewood!
You seem to have strong feelings based on your principles. The next step is to go sign out your complaint in court for a fair and thorough public hearing.
South_Mountaineer said:
"You Don’t Need to Take an Oath on a Bible, or Any Religious Text"
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/13/us/politics/roy-moore-bible-ted-crockett.html
Lost stanza from “Subterranean Homesick” etc.:
Stand up, be next
Get oversexed
You don’t need to take on oath
On a Bible or any religious text
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Maplewood should do what South Orange did. Buy a Tony Smith sculpture and let that distract everyone from putting religious objects on secular ground.