Serious Question: Is Trump a Nazi?
LOST said:
Runner_Guy said:
I really don't like differentiating Trump from Nazis since by pointing out that Trump isn't as bad some people might think I'm saying "Trump is good," but something else that Nazism (and Italian Fascism) had in common was a "leader principle," ie, a contempt for democracy and a belief that power should be invested in a single person.
In Germany, Hitler was "Der Fuhrer," in Italy Mussolini was "Il Duce," in Spain Franco was "El Caudillo." Trumpists don't have an equivalent title for Trump. (Such a title isn't unknown in the US. Birchers called Robert Welch "the leader.")
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2016-05-12/american-caudillo
Sure. Donald Trump has shades of a modern-day American caudillo, minus the epaulets.
But caudilloism isn't Nazism.
Not being an expert on Latin America (or really anything), I think caudilloism meant different things at different times in different countries. It was left-wing, it was right-wing; it was a authoritarian system that maintained some democratic institutions, it was an authoritarian system that outlawed opposition parties. It was sometimes corrupt, sometimes not.
You could not tweeze out a theoretical system from the history of Latin American dictatorships.
Donald Trump has been so contradictory that perhaps he reflects caudilloism perfectly, but that doesn't mean that Donald Trump is a Nazi.
While I do not know what label I would attach to Trump, I do know that he has fed a fire that is very dangerous. I just saw this article in the Washington Post about messages from the Klan.
algebra2 said:
Yes but trump being a bad candidate and bad guy was already a given. Nothing new learned. However, the OP asked if trump is a Nazi. And the answer to that question and the answer to the point of this thread is no, Trump is not a Nazi. Let's stay on point.
shoshannah said:
LOST said:Great qualification for being POTUS.
algebra2 said:
He's not a Nazi.
The bar is so low that it's resting on the floor. Soon to be in the sub-basement.
you're answer is definitive, but the clues say its not so cut and dried.
one cannot be fluent in the language of this sub-culture without being there and being involved. Certainly DJT Jr. is in the cult.
Maybe your original question should have asked "can anyone convince me that Trump is not a Nazi?." Then, you would have been more likely to get the answer you wanted.
hoops said:
algebra2 said:
Yes but trump being a bad candidate and bad guy was already a given. Nothing new learned. However, the OP asked if trump is a Nazi. And the answer to that question and the answer to the point of this thread is no, Trump is not a Nazi. Let's stay on point.
shoshannah said:
LOST said:Great qualification for being POTUS.
algebra2 said:
He's not a Nazi.
The bar is so low that it's resting on the floor. Soon to be in the sub-basement.
you're answer is definitive, but the clues say its not so cut and dried.
one cannot be fluent in the language of this sub-culture without being there and being involved. Certainly DJT Jr. is in the cult.
Until he forms his own uniformed paramilitary force he is not close to being a Nazi. There are so many bad things about DJT I do not know why people feel a need to exaggerate even further.
algebra2 said:
Maybe your original question should have asked "can anyone convince me that Trump is not a Nazi?." Then, you would have been more likely to get the answer you wanted.
hoops said:
algebra2 said:
Yes but trump being a bad candidate and bad guy was already a given. Nothing new learned. However, the OP asked if trump is a Nazi. And the answer to that question and the answer to the point of this thread is no, Trump is not a Nazi. Let's stay on point.
shoshannah said:
LOST said:Great qualification for being POTUS.
algebra2 said:
He's not a Nazi.
The bar is so low that it's resting on the floor. Soon to be in the sub-basement.
you're answer is definitive, but the clues say its not so cut and dried.
one cannot be fluent in the language of this sub-culture without being there and being involved. Certainly DJT Jr. is in the cult.
no, im happy with my phrasing and Im not looking for someone to feed me back any specific answer. I think getting almost 100 posts here, shows that the thread is not out of bounds. I dont consider nazi-ism to be some rare thing that only has to do with Germany, the holocaust and WWII. Its here, there are nazi's in our midst and they have been hiding, smiling at us while planning their plans.
asking if Trump is one, is valid, I believe because too much of his vitriol and his background lead me to believe it.
And yes he is vile no matter the label one uses.
This is not an argument for "Yes," but it should be part of the conversation:
https://theintercept.com/2016/09/20/nazi-who-originated-donald-trump-jr-s-skittles-metaphor-was-hanged-at-nuremberg/
"The Germans are coming!!" "Don't mention the war!!"
hoops said:
algebra2 said:
Maybe your original question should have asked "can anyone convince me that Trump is not a Nazi?." Then, you would have been more likely to get the answer you wanted.
hoops said:
algebra2 said:
Yes but trump being a bad candidate and bad guy was already a given. Nothing new learned. However, the OP asked if trump is a Nazi. And the answer to that question and the answer to the point of this thread is no, Trump is not a Nazi. Let's stay on point.
shoshannah said:
LOST said:Great qualification for being POTUS.
algebra2 said:
He's not a Nazi.
The bar is so low that it's resting on the floor. Soon to be in the sub-basement.
you're answer is definitive, but the clues say its not so cut and dried.
one cannot be fluent in the language of this sub-culture without being there and being involved. Certainly DJT Jr. is in the cult.
no, im happy with my phrasing and Im not looking for someone to feed me back any specific answer. I think getting almost 100 posts here, shows that the thread is not out of bounds. I dont consider nazi-ism to be some rare thing that only has to do with Germany, the holocaust and WWII. Its here, there are nazi's in our midst and they have been hiding, smiling at us while planning their plans.
asking if Trump is one, is valid, I believe because too much of his vitriol and his background lead me to believe it.
And yes he is vile no matter the label one uses.
I have a parallel question on nomenclature since some people are applying European political terms to the United States.
Should the Democratic party be called "socialist"?
I don't want my question to be misread. Yes, I know that being called "socialist" is an attack line in American politics (in part because the USSR called itself "socialist" and not just a lot of democratic left-wing parties in Western Europe), but I am not using the word "socialist" in a pejorative way. Being a Nazi is completely evil and being socialist is just an ordinary political preference. I am NOT equating socialism and Nazism even though this MOL thread is about Nazism.
In a European sense the Democratic party is a Social Democratic party. Which is very different from a European Socialist party.
algebra2 said:
"The Germans are coming!!" "Don't mention the war!!"
hoops said:
algebra2 said:no, im happy with my phrasing and Im not looking for someone to feed me back any specific answer. I think getting almost 100 posts here, shows that the thread is not out of bounds. I dont consider nazi-ism to be some rare thing that only has to do with Germany, the holocaust and WWII. Its here, there are nazi's in our midst and they have been hiding, smiling at us while planning their plans.
Maybe your original question should have asked "can anyone convince me that Trump is not a Nazi?." Then, you would have been more likely to get the answer you wanted.
hoops said:
algebra2 said:you're answer is definitive, but the clues say its not so cut and dried.
Yes but trump being a bad candidate and bad guy was already a given. Nothing new learned. However, the OP asked if trump is a Nazi. And the answer to that question and the answer to the point of this thread is no, Trump is not a Nazi. Let's stay on point.
shoshannah said:
LOST said:The bar is so low that it's resting on the floor. Soon to be in the sub-basement.Great qualification for being POTUS.
algebra2 said:
He's not a Nazi.
one cannot be fluent in the language of this sub-culture without being there and being involved. Certainly DJT Jr. is in the cult.
asking if Trump is one, is valid, I believe because too much of his vitriol and his background lead me to believe it.
And yes he is vile no matter the label one uses.
What's going on with you? It feels like you are dismissive of the criticisms of DJT. Are you a DJT supporter?
hoops said:
no, im happy with my phrasing and Im not looking for someone to feed me back any specific answer. I think getting almost 100 posts here, shows that the thread is not out of bounds. I dont consider nazi-ism to be some rare thing that only has to do with Germany, the holocaust and WWII. Its here, there are nazi's in our midst and they have been hiding, smiling at us while planning their plans.
Many look at and define the real Nazi's of Germany with WW 2 and the holocaust. But one should remember that before Hitler's accession the holocaust and WW 2 were not even on the horizon.
The question should be "do Trumps beliefs and philosophy parallel the beliefs and philosophy expounded in the 1920's by Hitler and his party?".
But even before Hitler's accession his own personal paramilitary force was in place.
I don't think this widely circulated, relevant tidbit has been posted yet in this thread.
"Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler's collected speeches, My New Order, which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed. Kennedy now guards a copy of My New Order in a closet at his office, as if it were a grenade. Hitler's speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist." http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/09/trump-files-donalds-big-book-hitler-speeches
The above is an article about the original revelation. Here's the original, in Vanity Fair: http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2015/07/donald-ivana-trump-divorce-prenup-marie-brenner
MGonz said:
Until he forms his own uniformed paramilitary force he is not close to being a Nazi. There are so many bad things about DJT I do not know why people feel a need to exaggerate even further.
So, we're supposed to define being a Nazi by the presence or absence of a paramilitary force? If Hitler didn't have a paramilitary force he wouldn't be a Nazi?
paulsurovell said:
This is not an argument for "Yes," but it should be part of the conversation:
https://theintercept.com/2016/09/20/nazi-who-originated-donald-trump-jr-s-skittles-metaphor-was-hanged-at-nuremberg/
The skittles metaphor could possibly be used for these conversations:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/07/world/middleeast/netanyahu-rejects-calls-to-accept-syrian-refugees.html
Netanyahu:“We must control our borders, against both illegal migrants and terrorism.”
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/9/why-isnt-israel-accepting-more-refugees.html
On Sept. 6 [2015], Netanyahu wrote on his Facebook page that Israel must control its borders “and prevent migrant workers, infiltrators or generators of terrorism” from entering the country
http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-syrian-refugees-israel-20150906-story.html
For many Israeli Jews, even the smallest number of additional non-Jews is a potential threat, and the Syrian refugee crisis and the debate about Israel’s role has reawakened the country’s most deep-seated fear -- that of losing the Jewish majority and subsequently the character of the Jewish state.
Absolutely the Nazis would not be the nazis if they did not have their own paramilitary force loyal only to the leader and the party.
M'Lord_Pabulum's example isn't that "Skittles metaphor" as recently used, at all.
It's an entirely different subject and discussion.
lord_pabulum said:
paulsurovell said:
This is not an argument for "Yes," but it should be part of the conversation:
https://theintercept.com/2016/09/20/nazi-who-originated-donald-trump-jr-s-skittles-metaphor-was-hanged-at-nuremberg/
The skittles metaphor could possibly be used for these conversations:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/07/world/middleeast/netanyahu-rejects-calls-to-accept-syrian-refugees.html
Netanyahu:“We must control our borders, against both illegal migrants and terrorism.”
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/9/why-isnt-israel-accepting-more-refugees.html
On Sept. 6 [2015], Netanyahu wrote on his Facebook page that Israel must control its borders “and prevent migrant workers, infiltrators or generators of terrorism” from entering the country
http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-syrian-refugees-israel-20150906-story.html
For many Israeli Jews, even the smallest number of additional non-Jews is a potential threat, and the Syrian refugee crisis and the debate about Israel’s role has reawakened the country’s most deep-seated fear -- that of losing the Jewish majority and subsequently the character of the Jewish state.
nohero said:
M'Lord_Pabulum's example isn't that "Skittles metaphor" as recently used, at all.
It's an entirely different subject and discussion.
Ok, but I find parallels between Trump's rhetoric and Israel's stance on migration and border protection.
shoshannah said:
What's going on with you? It feels like you are dismissive of the criticisms of DJT. Are you a DJT supporter?
Seems like on MOL, maybe the only thing worse than being called a Nazi is being called a DJT supporter.
That may be true on a larger scale as well. I wonder how many potential voters are leaning toward DJT but are telling others, including pollsters and maybe even themselves, that they are going to vote for HRC or Johnson or Stein, else having to put up with the 'deplorable' label and the likely scorn of some neighbors and family. But even 'deplorable' is better than 'nazi'. I think this demonizing of almost half the electorate presents the risk to the Dems that they are dealing with some questionable polling data.
I still don't think DJT has much of a chance to win - either the debates will do him in or the nation will finally come to its senses in the wee hours. But it is a huge mistake to put all of his supporters in any 'bucket', especially buckets with labels like deplorables or nazis. Much of his support comes from people who are just desperate for change in their lives and their families' lives. Given the state of affairs for many Americans, that is certainly not deplorable and most certainly should not invite one to conjure up visions of masses of DJT supporters raising their arms in a "Heil Trump!".
I just find it amusing that the OP seems to be convinced that the real threat facing America is the Nazi Party. 
Hilarious! In other news, my icebox is leaking again and damn, gotta love that kid Joe DiMaggio. He's gonna be some ballplayer!
ice said:
shoshannah said:
What's going on with you? It feels like you are dismissive of the criticisms of DJT. Are you a DJT supporter?
Seems like on MOL, maybe the only thing worse than being called a Nazi is being called a DJT supporter.
That may be true on a larger scale as well. I wonder how many potential voters are leaning toward DJT but are telling others, including pollsters and maybe even themselves, that they are going to vote for HRC or Johnson or Stein, else having to put up with the 'deplorable' label and the likely scorn of some neighbors and family. But even 'deplorable' is better than 'nazi'. I think this demonizing of almost half the electorate presents the risk to the Dems that they are dealing with some questionable polling data.
I still don't think DJT has much of a chance to win - either the debates will do him in or the nation will finally come to its senses in the wee hours. But it is a huge mistake to put all of his supporters in any 'bucket', especially buckets with labels like deplorables or nazis. Much of his support comes from people who are just desperate for change in their lives and their families' lives. Given the state of affairs for many Americans, that is certainly not deplorable and most certainly should not invite one conjure up visions of masses of DJT supporters raising their arms in a "Heil Trump!".
that could amuse you, but that might be because your reading comprehension is lacking and you want to create your own little strawman.
the point of the thread is to discuss this particular similarity. of course if you or your family were the target of antisemitic attacks, or were familiar with the fact that these incidents have increased many fold since the candidate Trump began campaigning, you might think a little differently.
frankly electing this criminal jerk would be a national embarrassment and disaster.
but go ahead and laugh it off your entitled.
algebra2 said:
I just find it amusing that the OP seems to be convinced that the real threat facing America is the Nazi Party.
algebra2 said:
I just find it amusing that the OP seems to be convinced that the real threat facing America is the Nazi Party.
Wow. See, this is an example of how DJT can get elected. A large part of the electorate sees extremism and horrors as happening now only in "those" countries, and that the horrors of Nazism, WWI, WWII, and all those bad things that happened in Europe—and even the bloodshed of the type we had here in the Civil War—as old, grainy, black-and-white images of other lifetimes, behind us forever, never to happen again in our enlightened era.
Thing is, it CAN happen again. We must always work to protect and maintain our Democracy and American ideals. They are not engraved forever, unerasable. The USA as we know it can disappear. Don't be deluded.
One more thing. Read this.
If You Vote For Trump, Then Screw You, by Drew Magary, GQ, September 21, 2016
"If you vote for him, you’re not making America great again. You are killing it. You are telling the world that America isn’t worth it. You are telling the world that all of our big talk about freedom and unity and ideals is just a load of ****, and that you would prefer a smoldering dystopia where freedom is just a flimsy cover for evildoing, led by a man who believes that strength is measured only in killing people. You are handing the most important job on Earth to Napoleon from Animal Farm. And you are revealing your breathtaking ignorance to everyone except for yourself. I can’t believe you can’t see this. I want you to see this. I wanna shine a big ******* light in your face and scream at you that Trump isn’t even qualified to be human, much less President. How are you gonna change the system if you elect some corrupt idiot who has no clue how to DO IT, huh? Can’t you see this? Haven’t you heard this ******* talk? THE **** IS WRONG WITH YOU?"
It is really the over the top type reaction of shoshannah and others that will be responsible for getting DJT elected if he (G-d forbid) is elected. Basically saying that if you do not concede that DJT is a Nazi you are supporting him is an awful way to proceed and will just push the undecided into his camp. I think that is actually a lot of what has been seen in recent polls. Everyone calm down and relax and oppose him in rational, not hysterical, terms.
the below incredibly warped reasoning.
pointing out Trumps recruiting of antisemites and racists would not cause any rational person to support him.
MGonz said:
It is really the over the top type reaction of shoshannah and others that will be responsible for getting DJT elected if he (G-d forbid) is elected. Basically saying that if you do not concede that DJT is a Nazi you are supporting him is an awful way to proceed and will just push the undecided into his camp. I think that is actually a lot of what has been seen in recent polls. Everyone calm down and relax and oppose him in rational, not hysterical, terms.
Hoops, not the difference between saying he is "recruiting of antisemites and racists" a reasonable statement and a good way of opposing him and shoshannah's over the top assertion that he is a Nazi and we are just like Germany of 1932. DJT would be a disaster as president, he panders to racists, but there is zero chance that he would be able to impose a dictatorship. Saying absurd things like that is very counterproductive. So lets get real.
Trump is not a Nazi, Obama is not a terrorist... When wingnuts on both sides resort to this type of name calling, I just shake my head.
MGonz said:
Hoops, not the difference between saying he is "recruiting of antisemites and racists" a reasonable statement and a good way of opposing him and shoshannah's over the top assertion that he is a Nazi and we are just like Germany of 1932. DJT would be a disaster as president, he panders to racists, but there is zero chance that he would be able to impose a dictatorship. Saying absurd things like that is very counterproductive. So lets get real.
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Yes but trump being a bad candidate and bad guy was already a given. Nothing new learned. However, the OP asked if trump is a Nazi. And the answer to that question and the answer to the point of this thread is no, Trump is not a Nazi. Let's stay on point.