She is a moron. She should have handled that question better. She is a neocon warhawk and woefully ignorant of basic geography related to parts of the world where she has major influence.
Truss error is proof West doesn't understand Ukraine conflict: Kremlin
How would you have answered the question? (he asks again)
And you must have really dug deep to find that nonsensical Reuters story.
Also, is there any Western leader that is not a neo-con warhawk? Maybe buddy-boy Orban I guess. He's just an authoritarian fascist so I guess he gets a pass..
She didn't have to dig deep - one of her "sources" probably tweeted it.
Roger Waters - I don't wish any harm come to him, but he is a contemptible piece of sh_t.
"I fear that we, and by we I mean people like you and me who actually want peace in Ukraine, who don’t want the outcome to be that you have to fight to the last Ukrainian life, and possibly even, if the worst comes to the worst, to the last human life. If we, instead, wish to achieve a different outcome we may have to seek a different route and that route may lie in your husband's previously stated good intentions."
He blames everyone but Putin. He's not really "for peace".
His scummy insult of Ms. Zelenska shows that another one of his lyrics applies to himself:
“Deaf, dumb and blind, you just keep on pretending That everyone’s expendable and no one has a real friend.”
"Did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?"
An Open letter to Mrs. Olena Zelenska from Roger Waters - Sunday 4th September 2022
Roger Waters - I don't wish any harm come to him, but he is a contemptible piece of sh_t.
"I fear that we, and by we I mean people like you and me who actually want peace in Ukraine, who don’t want the outcome to be that you have to fight to the last Ukrainian life, and possibly even, if the worst comes to the worst, to the last human life. If we, instead, wish to achieve a different outcome we may have to seek a different route and that route may lie in your husband's previously stated good intentions."
He blames everyone but Putin. He's not really "for peace".
These are comments to his letter on Facebook:
"Sometimes it is better to think a bit. If you have brains, of course. Or soul."
"The confused old has-been is at it again. Yelling at clouds..."
"Mr. Waters, what would you think of a person who has never written a song and doesn’t have a clue how to play one note on any instrument but suddenly decided to publicly lecture you - or your wife! - on songwriting? A joke, right? Well, you have turned yourself into such joke. Even worse: your behavior shows that you’ve got zero empathy. If you had any, you would have restrained yourself from writing such absurdities and from spreading Russian propaganda, while Russian soldiers are destroying Ukrainian cities and massacring Ukrainian civilians."
"The head of the EU executive, has set out plans for windfall taxes, mandatory electricity savings and a cap on the price of Russian gas to limit Kremlin revenues used to finance the “atrocious” war in Ukraine.
Low-carbon energy companies, renewable and nuclear suppliers that have reaped “enormous revenues … they never dreamed of” from generating electricity will face a windfall tax, Von der Leyen said, with proceeds earmarked to help domestic consumers and companies pay “astronomical” bills.
Under EU energy rules, the price of electricity is determined by the cost of the most expensive fuel, usually gas, rather than cheaper renewables and nuclear power. As a result of all-time-high gas prices, low-carbon electricity generators have been rewarded with a big increase in income.
“These revenues do not reflect their production costs,” Von der Leyen said. “So it is now time for the consumers to benefit from the low costs of low-carbon sources.” The commission, she said, proposed “to re-channel these unexpected profits” to allow member states to support vulnerable households and companies."
While she did not mention specific numbers, a leaked document seen by the Guardian shows the commission wants a €200 (£173) per megawatt hour limit to the price of electricity generated by low-carbon technologies. The paper states this “mimics the market outcomes that could be expected were global supply chains functioning normally and not subject to the weaponisation of energy through gas supply disruptions”.
Natural gas prices in Europe are still up 260% for the year, but they're down 40% from the high. If you take a look at the chart in the link below, you'll see that the price today is lower than when the price spiked after the invasion. Prices are still extremely high but once again, if you take a look at the chart, they're headed in the right direction. Whether they can continue to fall is another question, particularly if there is a cold winter in Europe. Plus, there are still a lot of financial dislocations because of margin calls in Europe, but if prices continue to fall there will be a lot fewer margin calls.
Nan talks about how we make Putin out to be evil. Well, Gazprom has just released a video that shows a worker throwing the switch off at Nord Stream 1, and London, Paris, Berlin and Brussels freezing over. It's the most evil thing I've seen in a long time.
Of course he' s trying to stir up the people so that they'll have more protests. Nan will be very happy. No Nan, the U.S. and EU are not responsible for this because of the sanctions. Putin is responsible for invading Ukraine. And yes, he is truly evil.
"A propaganda video allegedly shot by Gazprom saying that an unbearably cold winter awaits Europe without Russian gas has been circulating on Russian Telegram channels, including those belonging to media outlets and government officials. The video shows images of Krasnoyarsk in winter, a city with a population of over a million, still without centralized gas supply, the local media report."
"Krasnoyarsk online chats say the video is “a mockery of the city residents”. NGS24 reminds that the main gas pipeline in Krasnoyarsk is promised to be built only in 2025-2027. Last year, Governor Alexander Uss said he was waiting for a decision on the construction of the Power of Siberia 2 gas pipeline, then gasification “could reach two-thirds of the region’s population.”
By shutting down Nord Stream 1 indefinitely, Russia has lost any leverage it has. Even with Gazprom delivering its reduced amounts of gas, it still had leverage on the EU by the threat of stopping deleiveries entirely. The EU has been anticiapting this and yes, it's going to be a very tough winter, particularly if it's a cold winter. But the EU has gone into a war posture (it is an energy war,) and is sourcing natural gas from other alternatives. The EU countires will probably have to reduce natural gas consumption more than the 15% previously agreed to, but what does Russia have left? Nothing.
Europe Says Putin’s Gas Power Is Weakening
"In Germany and elsewhere, leaders are growing more confident that months of work to stockpile and line up alternate energy sources may help them blunt Russia’s weaponization of exports."
"BERLIN — Not long after Russian forces invaded Ukraine, another mobilization began. European energy ministers and diplomats started jetting across the world and inking energy deals — racing to prepare for a rough winter should Russia choose to cut off its cheap gas in retaliation for Western sanctions.
Since then, President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia has fiddled with the gas tap to Europe repeatedly. Through Gazprom, the Kremlin-controlled gas monopoly, Russia has vastly reduced supplies or suspended them for days at a time — until last week, when it announced that it would indefinitely halt flows through the Nord Stream 1 pipeline that supplies Germany, and through it, much of Europe.
Yet when the blow finally came, it provoked more ridicule than outrage among European leaders, who say that by now they would expect nothing less from Mr. Putin and that they have accepted that the era of cheap Russian gas is over, unimaginable as that might have seemed just months ago.
In some corners, even as Europe’s leaders scramble to blunt the blow from lower gas supplies and higher prices, there is a growing sense that perhaps Russia’s weaponizing of gas exports is a strategy of diminishing returns — and that Mr. Putin may have overplayed his hand."
"Even the markets seemed to take the latest disruption in stride. After rising 5 percent on the heels of Gazprom’s announcement, prices are now lower than they were at the start of last week."
Typical of the MSM to claim that Putin is deliberately reducing the flow of gas when we know that Gazprom is having problems with maintaining pumping equipment due to sanctions.
By shutting down Nord Stream 1 indefinitely, Russia has lost any leverage it has. Even with Gazprom delivering its reduced amounts of gas, it still had leverage on the EU by the threat of stopping deleiveries entirely. The EU has been anticiapting this and yes, it's going to be a very tough winter, particularly if it's a cold winter. But the EU has gone into a war posture (it is an energy war,) and is sourcing natural gas from other alternatives. The EU countires will probably have to reduce natural gas consumption more than the 15% previously agreed to, but what does Russia have left? Nothing.
Yes, I think that's the most important point. Russia has to basically hope this winter breaks Europe, because if it doesn't then they're out of economic bullets.
I think it will be a challenging winter, and many Europeans will be angry about it -- unlike in Russia, they can voice their opposition by going out on the streets, participating in media, and voting. But I expect that the majority of Europeans will prefer to stay the course. In addition to standing up for the kind of democratic values that Putin seeks to destroy, I can't imagine anyone believes Russia is a reliable energy source going forward -- today Russia's upset about Ukraine, what might they get upset about in the future and decide to cut off the gas over? If it's the choice between one challenging winter vs a perpetual threat of Russian energy blackmail going forward, I expect most people would prefer to free themselves of such an intolerable situation.
Nan is always saying that Russia is winning in Ukraine. No nan, Putin is using an energy war because he's not winning the military war.
Putin can walk and chew gum at the same time. He's not Gerald Ford.
And why would he NOT turn off the gas? He knows this is a proxy war which means it is really a fight between the West and Russia using Ukraine as pawns. He knows how Boris Johnson made Zelensky scrape the peace negotiations.
Here's a helpful hint. If you can only get your gas from one place, don't piss off the people who send it to you? Why is that just not something the UK did not think about? Answer: They did but they did not care because they thought Russia would go down the drain with the sanctions and they could move Yeltsin Jr. in there easy peasy. There was no Plan B.
Anyway, I know you all reject the Duran, but I will post this anyway because I found it interesting and it gives background to how the UK ended up getting their energy from Russia in the first place. It also goes over what the Russians actually said about the pipeline being closed down, not as reported in the Western press.
These are the notes I typed while listening. Much is summarized. Not word for word.
The Economic situation in Europe becoming increasingly bad. Important to separate the mythology about Russian gas supplies.
Lots of stories (made up?) – for example:
Allegedly yesterday, Putin confirmed to have cut off gas to Europe in retaliation for Russian sanctions. That the Russians are openly engaging in some kind of gas war against the West.
The Russians have openly admitted they are engaging in some type of gas war against the west.
Alex M: I do think that is what the Russians are doing. BUT, that is not what his spokesperson,Dmitry Peskov actually said. He was interviewed on TV and the west misinterpreted his words.
He said Russia abides by it’s contracts. It’s a reliable gas supplier. BUT the reason gas supplies are being interrupted is because of sanctions. The Russians cannot do all the repairs to the Nordstream I because doing so contravenes the Western sanctions which have been imposed on the Russian energy industry.
You might take that with mountain of salt. - Alex does. Thinks Peskov is being “economical with the truth on this.”
BUT he was making the point which the Russians have made many times before –that it was European actions that made the gas stop and it was NOT saying they were going to cut off the gas in retaliation for Russian sanctions.
---SO----
HOW DID WE GET HERE?
Fundamental to understand is that Europe sacrificed it’s energy security in return for cheap Russian gas has a lot of mythology behind it. It suggests that the Europeans did not look at or consider other options to Russian gas.
But the reality is THEY DID – to an extraordinary extent. At one time they wanted to build the Nabucco pipeline. From Azerbaijan - across Turkey. Long before any problems with Ukraine. It failed because Azerbijan did not have enough gas. Alex M. thinks it was actually going to go across the Caspian Sea to Iran.
It did not work and Nabucco was cancelled.
THEN they thought that LNG would provide the alternatives to Russian Gas. But LNG is complicated and more expensive.
The reason we are in this mess has to do with European politics and nature of European policy.In 60’s and 70s energy came from coal fired power stations. Coal was cheap and plentiful but dirty. Workers got sick and they became political and a pain in the neck.
In the 1970s they used oil. But that was not good either. Made them vulnerable to middle East instability.
They tried nuclear power – also ran into problems. The Green party in origin – was strongly anti-nuclear.Chernobly did not help things.
So they increasing turned to gas but not enough gas in Europe. So from 1980s they looked East and saw that Russians had tons of gas and were willing to sell it. So they built these pipelines form Western Siberia. Over time Europeans looked for alternatives but could not find them in the quantities they needed them.
Something else happened: Schroder government in Germany. Schroder formed a government in coalition with Greens. They wanted to phase out Germany’s nuclear power station. So he thought the only viable option was Russia. He negotiated the Nordstream I pipeline. The Green party helped a lot with Schroder.
Nordstream was supposed to expand to Nordstream II. But Angela Merkel not keen on Nordstream II. So it was not done.
Then something Fukisema accident happened. So demand to close nuclear power plants in Germany increased. The Greens were overtaken by the Linke party and became marginal. BUT, after Fukishema happened the Greens came back and became a renewed force. Angela Merkel changed her tune and adopted the Green policy of closing nuclear power stations.
She needed an alternative. So Merkel went to the Russians and asked to revive Nordstream II project.At the time Russian not too keen. There were sanctions already. They were trying to bring these pipelines but had problems and they built one to Turkey but said they would not build to EU countries.
Putin was won over by Merkel. They had 1 to 1 meetings without interpreters. Had many meetings. Merkel speaks Russian and Putin speaks German. No one knows what they talked about. Might be that if he agreed to Nordstrom II Merkel would help with Minsk agreements. That's a big theory.
But Merkel never followed through on Minsk agreements.
Key takeaway: Europeans have been continuously looking for alternatives. They built up windmills and solar. But they have not turned to these alternatives because they were too expensive.
Coal was ruled out. Greens stopped nuclear. The Russians did not force their gas on EuropeansThe Europeans went looking for Russians. Also, the volumes of gas from Russia is probably much more than what they say it is. Also, European companies were importing Russian gas but from other countries to get by European commission. European dependence on Russian gas is greater than they have admitted to.
BUT there was NO Russian trap that they walked into . Anyone who says this was a trap is full of BS.
Europeans made rational decisions. If they had not, Russians would have developed in a different way.
AlSO not true that Europeans did not look to alternatives.
It’s now destroyed – because Europeans instead of taking steps to safeguard it–decided instead to engage in this adventure in Ukraine. So they destroyed their relationship with their major energy provider.
They will need to use coal and nuclear poser stations. The nuclear power stations are old.
If Europenas had wanted to stay with coal or developed nuclear power they would be in a different place now. But the decisions they made were rational.\
It is their energy policy and support for Ukraine that has brought them to this point.
Typical of the MSM to claim that Putin is deliberately reducing the flow of gas when we know that Gazprom is having problems with maintaining pumping equipment due to sanctions.
The MSM did claim that Putin said he was doing this deliberately when his spokesperson said it was because of sanctions that prevented them from maintaining the equipment. See my notes above.
He might actually be doing it deliberately, but that is not what the official word on it was.
By shutting down Nord Stream 1 indefinitely, Russia has lost any leverage it has. Even with Gazprom delivering its reduced amounts of gas, it still had leverage on the EU by the threat of stopping deleiveries entirely. The EU has been anticiapting this and yes, it's going to be a very tough winter, particularly if it's a cold winter. But the EU has gone into a war posture (it is an energy war,) and is sourcing natural gas from other alternatives. The EU countires will probably have to reduce natural gas consumption more than the 15% previously agreed to, but what does Russia have left? Nothing.
Yes, I think that's the most important point. Russia has to basically hope this winter breaks Europe, because if it doesn't then they're out of economic bullets.
I think it will be a challenging winter, and many Europeans will be angry about it -- unlike in Russia, they can voice their opposition by going out on the streets, participating in media, and voting. But I expect that the majority of Europeans will prefer to stay the course. In addition to standing up for the kind of democratic values that Putin seeks to destroy, I can't imagine anyone believes Russia is a reliable energy source going forward -- today Russia's upset about Ukraine, what might they get upset about in the future and decide to cut off the gas over? If it's the choice between one challenging winter vs a perpetual threat of Russian energy blackmail going forward, I expect most people would prefer to free themselves of such an intolerable situation.
Putin's only hope is that the EU doesn't stick together. And he's doing his best to see that they don't, e.g., the Gazprom video and you can be sure there are Russian bots on European message boards.
Roger Waters - I don't wish any harm come to him, but he is a contemptible piece of sh_t.
"I fear that we, and by we I mean people like you and me who actually want peace in Ukraine, who don’t want the outcome to be that you have to fight to the last Ukrainian life, and possibly even, if the worst comes to the worst, to the last human life. If we, instead, wish to achieve a different outcome we may have to seek a different route and that route may lie in your husband's previously stated good intentions."
He blames everyone but Putin. He's not really "for peace".
His scummy insult of Ms. Zelenska shows that another one of his lyrics applies to himself:
“Deaf, dumb and blind, you just keep on pretending That everyone’s expendable and no one has a real friend.”
I wish we had many more Roger Waters. He is one of the few celebrities who seems to have a brain. This is exactly what should be said. I am highlighting the major part below. They should be negotiating peace, not prolonging this war. He reminds her of her husband's campaign promises. Maybe she can remind him of those too.
Let's look at this letter:
"Did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?"An Open letter to Mrs. Olena Zelenska from Roger WatersSunday 4th September 2022Dear Mrs. Zelenska,My heart bleeds for you and all the Ukrainian and Russian families, devastated by the terrible war in Ukraine. I’m in Kansas City, USA. I have just read a piece on BBC.com apparently taken from an interview you have already recorded for a program called ‘Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg’ which is to be broadcast on the BBC today, September 4th. BBC.com quotes you as saying that “If support for Ukraine is strong, the crisis will be shorter.” Hmmm? I guess that might depend on what you mean by “support for Ukraine”? If by “support for Ukraine” you mean the West continuing to supply arms to the Kiev government’s armies, I fear you may be tragically mistaken. Throwing fuel, in the form of armaments, into a fire fight, has never worked to shorten a war in the past, and it won’t work now, particularly because, in this case, most of the fuel is (a) being thrown into the fire from Washington DC, which is at a relatively safe distance from the conflagration, and (b) because the ‘fuel throwers’ have already declared an interest in the war going on for as long as possible. I fear that we, and by we I mean people like you and me who actually want peace in Ukraine, who don’t want the outcome to be that you have to fight to the last Ukrainian life, and possibly even, if the worst comes to the worst, to the last human life. If we, instead, wish to achieve a different outcome we may have to seek a different route and that route may lie in your husband's previously stated good intentions.Yes, I mean the platform upon which he so laudably ran for the office of President of Ukraine, the platform upon which he won his historic landslide victory in the democratic election in 2019. He stood on the election platform of the following promises.1. To end the civil war in the East and bring peace to the Donbas and partial autonomy to Donetsk and Luhansk.2. And to ratify and implement the rest of the body of the Minsk 2 agreements.One can only assume that your husband’s electoral policies didn’t sit well with certain political factions in Kiev and that those factions persuaded your husband to diametrically change course ignoring the peoples mandate. Sadly, your old man agreed to those totalitarian, anti-democratic dismissals of the will of the Ukrainian people, and the forces of extreme nationalism that had lurked, malevolent, in the shadows, have, since then, ruled the Ukraine. They have, also since then, crossed any number of red lines that had been set out quite clearly over a number of years by your neighbors the Russian Federation and in consequence they, the extreme nationalists, have set your country on the path to this disastrous war.I won’t go on.If I’m wrong, please help me to understand how?If I’m not wrong, please help me in my honest endeavors to persuade our leaders to stop the slaughter, the slaughter which serves only the interests of the ruling classes and extreme nationalists both here in the West, and in your beautiful country, at the expense of the rest of us ordinary people both here in the West, and in the Ukraine, and in fact ordinary people everywhere all over the world.Might it not be better to demand the implementation of your husband’s election promises and put an end to this deadly war?LoveRoger Waters
Meanwhile… Ukrainian forces have recaptured some strategic towns around Kharkiv. Hopefully the Russian army surrender soon, as they are complaining of not being paid. Morale is low, food is scarce. You gotta admit, that was a smart move, start the counteroffensive in the south (Kherson)… then attack the northeast (Kharkiv)
Putin's only hope is that the EU doesn't stick together. And he's doing his best to see that they don't, e.g., the Gazprom video and you can be sure there are Russian bots on European message boards.
Ukrainian intelligence shut down two Russian bot farms last week , over 7,000 zombies gone…well we have two stragglers…
This may come as a shock, but the U.K. actually exports natural gas, quite a lot of it. One of the problems is that the U.K. doesn't have enough gas storage.
In August, Centrica announced that it was going to reopen the Rough gas storage facility. Centrica shut down the Rough gas storage facility in 2017 because it had become too expensive. Rough accounted for 70% of Britain's natiral gas storage capacity. Centirica has received the necessary government approvals to reopen the Rough gas storage and it is expected to started refilling this month.
These are some of the comments to Waters' letter on Facebook:
"Sometimes it is better to think a bit. If you have brains, of course. Or soul."
"The confused old has-been is at it again. Yelling at clouds..."
"Mr. Waters, what would you think of a person who has never written a song and doesn’t have a clue how to play one note on any instrument but suddenly decided to publicly lecture you - or your wife! - on songwriting? A joke, right? Well, you have turned yourself into such joke. Even worse: your behavior shows that you’ve got zero empathy. If you had any, you would have restrained yourself from writing such absurdities and from spreading Russian propaganda, while Russian soldiers are destroying Ukrainian cities and massacring Ukrainian civilians."
I wish we had many more Roger Waters. He is one of the few celebrities who seems to have a brain. This is exactly what should be said. I am highlighting the major part below. They should be negotiating peace, not prolonging this war. He reminds her of her husband's campaign promises. Maybe she can remind him of those too.
Let's look at this letter:
"Did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?"An Open letter to Mrs. Olena Zelenska from Roger Waters ...
Scummy misogynist directing lines from "Wish You Were Here" to the wife of Ukraine's President and pretending that he's a "peace activist". He's a phony, since he puts all of the responsibility on the victim of the invasion instead of the invader.
I wish we had many more Roger Waters. He is one of the few celebrities who seems to have a brain. This is exactly what should be said. I am highlighting the major part below. They should be negotiating peace, not prolonging this war. He reminds her of her husband's campaign promises. Maybe she can remind him of those too.
Let's look at this letter:
"Did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?"An Open letter to Mrs. Olena Zelenska from Roger Waters ...
Scummy misogynist directing lines from "Wish You Were Here" to the wife of Ukraine's President and pretending that he's a "peace activist". He's a phony, since he puts all of the responsibility on the victim of the invasion instead of the invader.
Zelensky did not keep his campaign promise and that is not because of Russia. Zelensky had a mandate and he did not even try. That's not a good leader.
Let's look at what Waters says again:
"b) because the ‘fuel throwers’ have already declared an interest in the war going on for as long as possible. I fear that we, and by we I mean people like you and me who actually want peace in Ukraine, who don’t want the outcome to be that you have to fight to the last Ukrainian life, and possibly even, if the worst comes to the worst, to the last human life. If we, instead, wish to achieve a different outcome we may have to seek a different route and that route may lie in your husband's previously stated good intentions.Yes, I mean the platform upon which he so laudably ran for the office of President of Ukraine, the platform upon which he won his historic landslide victory in the democratic election in 2019. He stood on the election platform of the following promises.1. To end the civil war in the East and bring peace to the Donbas and partial autonomy to Donetsk and Luhansk.2. And to ratify and implement the rest of the body of the Minsk 2 agreements."
By "fuel throwers" he is referring to the collective west headed by the US. The UK stopped the peace process and gave more weapons. They are the ones who have an "interest in the war going on for as long as possible."
It is the West that is forcing this fight to the last Ukrainian. The Russians invaded which they shoujld not have done, but it was after eight years of frustration and the realization that nothing was going to be done about their concerns (including NATO expansion--which Waters does not mention here).
"Right now if you're a respectable writer and you want to write in the main journals, you talk about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, you have to call it 'the unprovoked Russian invasion of Ukraine," Chomsky said. "It's a very interesting phrase; it was never used before. You look back, you look at Iraq, which was totally unprovoked, nobody ever called it 'the unprovoked invasion of Iraq.' In fact I don't know if the term was ever used — if it was it was very marginal. Now you look it up on Google, and hundreds of thousands of hits. Every article that comes out has to talk about the unprovoked invasion of Ukraine."
"Why? Because they know perfectly well it was provoked," Chomsky said. "That doesn't justify it, but it was massively provoked. Top US diplomats have been talking about this for 30 years, even the head of the CIA."
Still trying to understand how a civil war in Ukraine is a provocation to Russia. Or for that matter, how NATO is a provocation given it has never attacked Russia while Russia has attacked many states which are currently in NATO or have expressed a desire to be in NATO.
I suppose if one accepts Putin's premise that Ukraine is not and never was a real country and was always actually the property of Russia, then sure, Ukraine's refusal to agree is provocative, but I'm not sure why anyone who's not a Russian imperialist finds that an especially compelling view.
I had to look-up what Nandos is:
Nando's (/ˈnændoʊz/; Afrikaans: [ˈnandœs]) is a South African multinational fast casual[1] chain that specialises in flame-grilled peri-peri style chicken.[a] Founded in Johannesburg in 1987, Nando's operates over 1,200 outlets[1] in 30 countries. Their logo (also seen as a sort of mascot) depicts the Rooster of Barcelos, one of Portugal's most common symbols.[2]