Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine

nan said:

I oppose the death penalty, which we also have in this country.  Russia does not have the death penalty, by the way. 

Another example of the kind of difference between Democrats and Republicans that apparently the "they're both the same" crowd ignores.

No federal executions from 1972 to 2001. Three executions under Bush. None under Obama. 13 under Trump. Moratorium on federal executions by Biden AG Merrick Garland.


Real conspiracy theorists use Garland Nixon as a "source".

nan said:


nan said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

nan said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

nan said:

Jaytee said:

nan said:

Russia does not have the death penalty, by the way. 

Poorly built windows are religious symbols…

Food poisoning is an act of God..

We are talking about people who go through the legal system.  Speculation about assassination happens in every country. We just had one of those in Russia done by Ukrainians SBU, by the way. 

WE??? Who's "we" Kemosabe?

The world in general.  Were you asleep?  This happened. 

 https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/08/24/how-the-murder-of-daria-dugina-is-a-wild-card-in-a-zero-sum-conflict/

Clueless anti-American BS.

I thought we were a free country with the right to criticize the government as we want.  Did that change?

No change, but there is also the right for me to call you on your USA-hating drivel of Putinesque propaganda. I think you have a serious case of Putin Worship.


nan said:

Yeah, that's the mainstream media version.  There are others, also with witnesses. 

Was bombing of Mariupol theater staged by Ukrainian Azov extremists to trigger NATO intervention?

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/18/bombing-mariupol-theater-ukrainian-azov-nato-intervention/

New witness testimony about Mariupol maternity hospital ‘airstrike’ follows pattern of Ukrainian deceptions, media malpractice

BBC correspondent-fixer shaping Ukraine war coverage is PR operative involved in “war-messaging tool”

BBC reports on the suspicious destruction of a theater in the Ukrainian city of Mariupol were co-authored by a Ukrainian PR agent tied to a firm at the forefront of her country’s information warfare efforts.

https://thegrayzone.com/2022/03/25/bbc-fixer-war-ukrainian-nationalist-pr-operative/

"In the temporarily captured Mariupol, the invaders are demanding that the remains of those killed in the Drama Theater be covered with concrete, and they are trying to eliminate the corpse smell with the help of chlorine.

"This was reported by the Mariupol City Council in Telegram.

" 'The occupiers cannot start repairing the Mariupol theater in time without chlorine,' the statement reads.

"The City Council quotes Russian opposition journalist Alexander Nevzorov, who reports on his correspondence with construction workers who came to Mariupol"

Remains Of Those Killed In Mariupol Drama Theater Covered With Concrete | Ukrainian news (ukranews.com)


nan said:

nohero said:

jamie said:

The Russian people are forced to like putin.  Can you link to a recent protest against the war in Russia - do you have ANY idea why there aren't any?  WDoes Putin's have any opposition - that isn't currently in prison?

Ms Nan doesn't even object to executing some prisoners of war, because Putin says they're Nazis.  Why should she care about Russian anti-war activists?

I oppose the death penalty, which we also have in this country.  Russia does not have the death penalty, by the way. 

Bullsh_t.

From August 13 on the "What Does Putin Want" thread - 


And the death penalty is not throughout the United States.

By the way, letting Trump win in 2016 set the anti-death penalty movement back by some years.


nohero said:

Bullsh_t.

From August 13 on the "What Does Putin Want" thread - 

ROTFLMAO!!!


Russia Privately Warns of Deep and Prolonged Economic Damage

  • Confidential document contrasts with upbeat public statements
  • Report says key sectors face sharp drop in output, brain drain

"Russia may face a longer and deeper recession as the impact of US and European sanctions spreads, handicapping sectors that the country has relied on for years to power its economy, according to an internal report prepared for the government.

The document, the result of months of work by officials and experts trying to assess the true impact of Russia’s economic isolation due to President Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, paints a far more dire picture than officials usually do in their upbeat public pronouncements. Bloomberg viewed a copy of the report, drafted for a closed-door meeting of top officials on Aug. 30. People familiar with the deliberations confirmed its authenticity.

Two of the three scenarios in the report show the contraction accelerating next year, with the economy returning to the prewar level only at the end of the decade or later. The “inertial” one sees the economy bottoming out next year 8.3% below the 2021 level, while the “stress” scenario puts the low in 2024 at 11.9% under last year’s level."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-05/russia-risks-bigger-longer-sanctions-hit-internal-report-warns?srnd=premium

This jibes with my post above. 

https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/subforum/russia-ukraine-showdown/politics-plus?page=next&limit=2070#discussion-replies-3594974


"Beyond the restrictions themselves, which cover about a quarter of imports and exports, the report details how Russia now faces a “blockade” that “has affected practically all forms of transport,” further cutting off the country’s economy. Technological and financial curbs add to the pressure. The report estimates as many as 200,000 IT specialists may leave the country by 2025, the first official forecast of the widening brain drain."


cramer said:


Two of the three scenarios in the report show the contraction accelerating next year, with the economy returning to the prewar level only at the end of the decade or later. The “inertial” one sees the economy bottoming out next year 8.3% below the 2021 level, while the “stress” scenario puts the low in 2024 at 11.9% under last year’s level."

Ah, this must be what Nan is talking about when she says "5 - 10 years."


PVW said:

cramer said:


Two of the three scenarios in the report show the contraction accelerating next year, with the economy returning to the prewar level only at the end of the decade or later. The “inertial” one sees the economy bottoming out next year 8.3% below the 2021 level, while the “stress” scenario puts the low in 2024 at 11.9% under last year’s level."

Ah, this must be what Nan is talking about when she says "5 - 10 years."

Yeah. 

Actually, Nan didn't give us the whole story:

"Belgian Energy Minister Tinne Van der Straeten warned that the next five to 10 winters in Europe will be “terrible” unless the European Union moves to swiftly impose a price cap on runaway gas prices.

“The next 5 to 10 winters will be terrible if nothing is done,” Van der Straeten said via Twitter on Sunday. “We must act at the source, at [the] European level, and work on freezing gas prices.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/29/europe-faces-terrible-winters-without-gas-price-cap-minister-warns.html#:~:text=Alliance%20%7C%20Getty%20Images-,Belgian%20Energy%20Minister%20Tinne%20Van%20der%20Straeten%20warned%20that%20the,said%20via%20Twitter%20on%20Sunday.

The EU energy ministers are meeting Sept. 9 to talk about price caps, among other things. 


Regardless of whether the sanctions are lifted or not, Europe will come out of this free of its dependence on Russian oil and gas. It will be a tough winter and the EU countries will probably have to decrease natural gas consumption more than the 15% it has already agreed to. There will have to be massive bail-outs for the energy utilities, as well as gigantic financial help for consumers. But the natural gas crisis has accelerated Europe's transition to alternative energy, as well as securing new sources of natural gas. 


This is interesting - China is reselling LNG from Russia to Europe. 

"As the FT reported recently, "Europe’s fears of gas shortages heading into winter may have been circumvented, thanks to an unexpected white knight: China." The Nikkei-owned publication further notes that "the world’s largest buyer of liquefied natural gas is reselling some of its surplus LNG cargoes due to weak energy demand at home. This has provided the spot market with an ample supply that Europe has tapped, despite the higher prices."

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/China-Is-Quietly-Reselling-Its-Excess-Russian-LNG-To-Europe.html


cramer said:

This is interesting - China is reselling LNG from Russia to Europe. 

"As the FT reported recently, "Europe’s fears of gas shortages heading into winter may have been circumvented, thanks to an unexpected white knight: China." The Nikkei-owned publication further notes that "the world’s largest buyer of liquefied natural gas is reselling some of its surplus LNG cargoes due to weak energy demand at home. This has provided the spot market with an ample supply that Europe has tapped, despite the higher prices."

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/China-Is-Quietly-Reselling-Its-Excess-Russian-LNG-To-Europe.html

For all it's talk about supporting Russia, China is far more dependent on a healthy EU economy. There's no reason they would sacrifice them just to support Putin.


drummerboy said:

cramer said:

This is interesting - China is reselling LNG from Russia to Europe. 

"As the FT reported recently, "Europe’s fears of gas shortages heading into winter may have been circumvented, thanks to an unexpected white knight: China." The Nikkei-owned publication further notes that "the world’s largest buyer of liquefied natural gas is reselling some of its surplus LNG cargoes due to weak energy demand at home. This has provided the spot market with an ample supply that Europe has tapped, despite the higher prices."

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/China-Is-Quietly-Reselling-Its-Excess-Russian-LNG-To-Europe.html

For all it's talk about supporting Russia, China is far more dependent on a healthy EU economy. There's no reason they would sacrifice them just to support Putin.

 The U.S. and EU combined accounted for more than a quarter of China's total trade in 2020, compared with 2.5% for Russia. With growth slowing in China to the slowest pace in 30 years, China needs the U.S. and the EU even more. 


GoSlugs said:

nan said:

GoSlugs said:

I am curious Nan. Do you believe in Climate Change and the Moon Landings? How about Pizzagate?

How do you choose which conspiracy theories you are going to subscribe to and which ones you will reject?

You didn't answer my question.

Seriously, let's just take Climate Change.  Real or conspiracy?

Do you seriously want to play "Who believes in the Most Conspiracy Theories" with me? 

I will probably win.   I'm just warning you.

For starters, I do believe in Climate Change and the Moon landings and I don't believe in Pizzagate.

Do you/did you believe in Russiagate? The US backed Ukrainian Coup of 2014 and that the Kennedy's killed Marilyn Monroe.

Bonus question:  Bigfoot?  Yeah or Neah?


cramer said:

This is interesting - China is reselling LNG from Russia to Europe. 

"As the FT reported recently, "Europe’s fears of gas shortages heading into winter may have been circumvented, thanks to an unexpected white knight: China." The Nikkei-owned publication further notes that "the world’s largest buyer of liquefied natural gas is reselling some of its surplus LNG cargoes due to weak energy demand at home. This has provided the spot market with an ample supply that Europe has tapped, despite the higher prices."

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/China-Is-Quietly-Reselling-Its-Excess-Russian-LNG-To-Europe.html

Yes, but I have heard they won't have extra in the winter.  BUT, how dumb is it that we have sanctions on Russia but we buy their oil from someone else at a higher price?  That is nuts.  

Failed leadership. 


cramer said:

drummerboy said:

cramer said:

This is interesting - China is reselling LNG from Russia to Europe. 

"As the FT reported recently, "Europe’s fears of gas shortages heading into winter may have been circumvented, thanks to an unexpected white knight: China." The Nikkei-owned publication further notes that "the world’s largest buyer of liquefied natural gas is reselling some of its surplus LNG cargoes due to weak energy demand at home. This has provided the spot market with an ample supply that Europe has tapped, despite the higher prices."

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/China-Is-Quietly-Reselling-Its-Excess-Russian-LNG-To-Europe.html

For all it's talk about supporting Russia, China is far more dependent on a healthy EU economy. There's no reason they would sacrifice them just to support Putin.

 The U.S. and EU combined accounted for more than a quarter of China's total trade in 2020, compared with 2.5% for Russia. With growth slowing in China to the slowest pace in 30 years, China needs the U.S. and the EU even more. 

There are other markets in the world that are growing.  India, South America, Africa and others.  I would not assume that we have any country over a barrel except Ukraine. . .and Europe, for some reason. 


nohero said:

• China: share of main export partners 2021 | Statista

Yes, that is the present.  The future might look different.  Maybe they will let their people starve and freeze to punish us the way the leaders of Europe do to supposedly punish the Russians. 


nan said:

nohero said:

• China: share of main export partners 2021 | Statista

Yes, that is the present.  The future might look different.  Maybe they will let their people starve and freeze to punish us the way the leaders of Europe do to supposedly punish the Russians. 

The U.S. and EU combined accounted for 32.%5, or one-third of China's total trade in 2021.  

China needs the U.S. and EU - period.

eta - Russia only accounted for 2% of China's total trade in 2021. 


nan said:

I have zero patience for people who use words like "tankie" to sound grown-up.  Real grown ups don't fall for the lies around proxy wars.  

I'm sick of the money spent on useless neocon directed wars that we lose anyway and it hurts our economy.  We are falling apart and our empire is going down the toilet. 

Move to Russia already.   


nohero said:

Ukrainian hackers created fake profiles of attractive women to trick Russian soldiers into sharing their location, report says. Days later, the base was blown up.

Hotel Donbas was used as a base for the Russian soldiers…they never had time to check out. 
Zateryannyi Mir hotel Blown up two days ago…all caught in bed drinking vodka on ice 

Up ahead in the distance no one saw the shimmering light of the missiles…


nan said:

Do you seriously want to play "Who believes in the Most Conspiracy Theories" with me? 

I will probably win.   I'm just warning you.

For starters, I do believe in Climate Change and the Moon landings and I don't believe in Pizzagate.

Do you/did you believe in Russiagate? The US backed Ukrainian Coup of 2014 and that the Kennedy's killed Marilyn Monroe.

Bonus question:  Bigfoot?  Yeah or Neah?

As a Californian, I absolutely believe in Sasquatches, at least from an emotional point of view.

If I was a wizard, my wand would be redwood, with a core of Sasquatch fur.


GoSlugs said:

nan said:

Do you seriously want to play "Who believes in the Most Conspiracy Theories" with me? 

I will probably win.   I'm just warning you.

For starters, I do believe in Climate Change and the Moon landings and I don't believe in Pizzagate.

Do you/did you believe in Russiagate? The US backed Ukrainian Coup of 2014 and that the Kennedy's killed Marilyn Monroe.

Bonus question:  Bigfoot?  Yeah or Neah?

As a Californian, I absolutely believe in Sasquatches, at least from an emotional point of view.

If I was a wizard, my wand would be redwood, with a core of Sasquatch fur.

Everybody wants one of those. Take a number.  There are a bunch of people in New York State who believe in Bigfoot, which I guess is the Eastern name for Sasquatch.   In 2020 there were 113 Bigfoot sightings, just in St. Lawrence county.  Sadly, I was not on the list for any Bigfoot sightings anywhere. 

But, I really want to see the Loch Ness monster in Scotland.  It's on my bucket list. 


This surprised me - I guess that's why I'm not an energy trader (although I've  known some.)  Natural gas prices fell on Tuesday -  I thought they would be up today in the face of Gazprom's indefinite shutdown of Nord Stream 1. Oil prices have also fallen. 

"Natural gas prices fell sharply on Tuesday amid reports of a continued clash between Russia’s Gazprom and Germany’s Siemens Energy ENR, 3.04%.

European natural gas benchmark, the Dutch TTF future, dropped 10.7% to 219.6 euros per megawatt hour. U.K. natural gas futures for October fell 13.5% to 400 pence per therm. Both contracts remain many multiples higher than prices seen a year ago, before Russia restricted gas supplies in response to Western sanctions for its invasion of Ukraine.

Meanwhile, international oil standard Brent crude BRN00, -2.82% was down 1.4% to $94.40 a barrel on Tuesday morning during London trading. U.S. oil benchmark West Texas Intermediate CL.1, -0.20% rose 1.3% to $87.99.

The market reaction comes as Siemens Energy has denied that it has been commissioned to carry out the maintenance work on the Nord Stream 1 pipeline despite a report from Reuters that Russia’s Gazprom will not resume shipments until Siemens repairs the faulty equipment."

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/natural-gas-prices-slide-amid-gazprom-and-siemens-energy-clash-over-nord-stream-1-maintenance-11662456612?mod=mw_quote_news


cramer said:

This surprised me - I guess that's why I'm not an energy trader (although I've  known some.)  Natural gas prices fell -  I thought they would be up today in the face of Gazprom's indefinite shutdown of Nord Stream 1. Oil prices have also fallen. 

"Natural gas prices fell sharply on Tuesday amid reports of a continued clash between Russia’s Gazprom and Germany’s Siemens Energy ENR, 3.04%.

European natural gas benchmark, the Dutch TTF future, dropped 10.7% to 219.6 euros per megawatt hour. U.K. natural gas futures for October fell 13.5% to 400 pence per therm. Both contracts remain many multiples higher than prices seen a year ago, before Russia restricted gas supplies in response to Western sanctions for its invasion of Ukraine.

Meanwhile, international oil standard Brent crude BRN00, -2.82% was down 1.4% to $94.40 a barrel on Tuesday morning during London trading. U.S. oil benchmark West Texas Intermediate CL.1, -0.20% rose 1.3% to $87.99.

The market reaction comes as Siemens Energy has denied that it has been commissioned to carry out the maintenance work on the Nord Stream 1 pipeline despite a report from Reuters that Russia’s Gazprom will not resume shipments until Siemens repairs the faulty equipment."

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/natural-gas-prices-slide-amid-gazprom-and-siemens-energy-clash-over-nord-stream-1-maintenance-11662456612?mod=mw_quote_news

FACTS…are stubborn by nature 


" Britain's new prime minister was working on what looks set to be Europe's biggest energy crisis support package so far as countries scramble to protect households and businesses from soaring bills and shore up struggling suppliers.

Liz Truss, who took over from Boris Johnson on Tuesday, is planning to freeze household energy bills at the current level for this winter and next, paid for by government-backed loans to suppliers, the BBC reported, adding the scheme could cost 100-130 billion pounds ($116-151 billion)."

"European governments are pushing through multibillion-euro packages to prevent utilities from collapsing and protect households amid soaring energy costs triggered mainly by the fallout from Russia's invasion of Ukraine."

Reuters


Jaytee said:

FACTS…are stubborn by nature 

So you don't think Europe is actually facing a serious energy emergency?   Even Germany?  

Just trying to clarify. 


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