Back on track with the kitchen reno

Okay, I think I'm really ready to start planning the long-contemplated kitchen renovation now that the bathroom reno is 2 years behind us (unbelievable how time flies).

The first order of business is to talk to an architect about the possibility of increasing the footprint of our kitchen and back-door area into our rather modestly sized backyard.

I have a list of architects that have been recommended on this board, but I don't know how people go about choosing one. Do you consult with two or three and then decide, or do you just pick one based on recommendations that you trust, and hope for the best?

Do they charge for an initial consultation - no drawings/plans, just viewing the space and suggesting what they would do? Given how much money you could end up spending, it seems reasonable to talk to more than one and get an idea if they're a good fit for you and what they would charge for their services, no?

I've never worked with an architect before, so am looking for some input on the process. When we did the bathroom, there was really no option to reimagine the space given the built-in constraints, but I'm sort of hoping for some vision on how we can make the kitchen and back area more functional.

Feel free to make specific recommendations as well if you were truly wowed by your architect. If it matters, I'm more Country Living than Dwell.

wow! Thanks for writing up my question. Saved me a lot of time.   Thinking  of the same thing, with all the same issurs. Can't wait to hear what folks say.

I've used David Jablonka of SO to help design several additions where we wanted the new space to blend with the old and not feel like an addition. I think he did a great job. He helped with our current house and the addition enhances the old part of the house, as opposed to just being new space. As a designer I had distinct ideas and the end result incorporated his ideas as well as my own.

I also know a lot of people who had similar results with Clawson architects. (We started working with David before Clawson was working much in the area, based on the recommendation of a contractor we were using at the time.)

Thanks, shh. Both architects you mention are on my list, presumably from at least your previous recommendation among others. But when you chose David the first time, did you talk to any others for proposals/quotes or did you just go with him out of the gate based on his portfolio and/or recommendations?

he had worked with th contractor we were using and we disclosed the scope of the project. Off the bat he was able to solve problems  had with the space, which led to solutions. 

We had such a good rapport with him I knew he was right to help me with this project too, and his vision totally helped transform my house BACK, adding missing character, that had been removed over the years, and making my entire house so much better, with wonderful flow and usable spaces. 

We used Cami with Studio Verte. Expanded the footprint of the kitchen on to the back porch. Also reordered the hallway and powderoom to create a closet space and relocated the basement stairs. She did great work and incorporated our ideas well. Had some structural elements and engineering required with our plans as well as lighting design. Pretty happy with outcome.

You should not a have to pay for an initial consultation.  My firm does this as a complimentary service.  I recommend that you do not pay anything until you decide to sign a contract with an architectural firm.  If you PM me I will send you our contact info.  Would be happy to meet and talk - no strings attached- anytime.

Thanks, everyone.

OliveBee, I'll PM you.

With whomever you choose, take care to be clear about when you want drawings and the scope of work. We hired an architect for our kitchen reno and he charged a fortune. We discussed that we would be changing the Windows someday on the house and before we knew it, multiple drawings of the Windows were produced. This happened multiple times and we finally used the ideas mapped out by the kitchen cabinet contractor, not the architect.

Thanks, haus. Good point about project scope.

Do people typically pick an architect first and then a contractor, or the other way around? I'm sort of hoping that a good architect can recommend a contractor that they've worked well with, as I'm on the fence about using the contractor who did our bathroom.

After our experience, I would find the contractor first and the cabinet distributor. The kitchen folks have seen it all and have good ideas. We used Superior Cabinets in Warren. Once I knew what I wanted, I would hire the architect just to do the drawings. 

We're still in the early planning stages, but I want to start thinking about appliances both for budget and space purposes.

I like to cook and bake, and want a range with at least one high-BTU burner and at least one low-simmer burner. My pots are cast iron, copper, stainless, and anodized aluminum. Not sure I need 6 burners, though a grill might be nice unless it generates too much smoke even with a good exhaust fan. We're currently a household of 3, and while I'd like to entertain more, we generally don't do major entertaining. I've read some comparisons between BlueStar and Capital ranges. What about the oven - is convection worthwhile? I believe that one of those two brands doesn't have self-cleaning, and since I do my own housekeeping, that may be an issue, though I rarely run the self-cleaning cycle. Any thoughts on brands, size, features? And what's the story with the hood/exhaust? We have the exhaust built into the microwave-over-range, but it's noisy, and gets very grimy because it's so close to the stove top. I know we'll need a more substantial hood for the higher BTUs - is it just something that matches the stove output, or are there design choices there?

I'm even more confused about refrigerators. I have to say that the SubZero, while crazy expensive, is looking very attractive. Anyone have one and think it was worth the expense? Any other refrigerators that you love? And what about type? I'm leaning towards single-door refrigerator over drawer freezer. Stainless or panel-ready? I don't want a water dispenser, and will live with an ice maker if there's no other choice.

We already have a new KitchenAid dishwasher, which I originally didn't like but have gotten to work better by making sure the water is super hot before running, and using the Finish Quantum Max detergent packets. I really wanted a double-drawer dishwasher, but I've heard mixed reviews, and don't know if I can justify buying another new dishwasher.

Finally, any thoughts on where to put the microwave? We use ours daily to heat leftovers or reheat coffee/tea. I also use it to warm milk for cocoa, make hot cereal, sometimes to defrost, and very rarely for actual "cooking". I guess building it into a cabinet wall makes sense. What about a microwave drawer? Do they work well? Are they hard to clean?

Thanks for any input.

Stay away from Viking.  We had a bad time with an oven.  We got Karls to swap it out for a Thermador which is much better. 

Our microwave drawer works well but is a bit harder to clean. 

Thanks, bram. I have heard good things about Thermador.

I'll try to get over to Karl's in Fairfield soon so I can see all the options. Any other appliance stores people recommend?

For appliances, I recommend Paul's in Newark.  Have bought most of our appliances from them.  Good prices and service.  Andre is our go to guy. They have all the ranges that you are considering.

Drawer microwaves are great; especially if you're going to place it in an island.  Yes, cleaning them could be a challenge.  Have you thought about a rangetop (not a cooktop) and wall oven?  The advantage of a wall oven is that you don't have to bend to retrieve a hot dish from it.  You don't state your age, but keep in mind, it's more difficult to bend as one gets older. You can choose a single or double oven.  If you only need one oven, you can put a microwave above it (or purchase an oven/micro combination).  And consider a warming drawer, especially if you get a single oven.  Get either a canopy hood or chimney hood; depending on the style you prefer, but get one that is at least 3" wider than your cooktop.  Vent-A-Hood has a very good reputation.

Thanks, dg. I've heard people recommend Paul's as well.

xnyr, I like to think I'm not quite "of a certain age", but I'm well on my way there, so I'll take that under advisement. But do you get much storage space under the cooktop? Splitting them out seems like you lose more overall space. I'm also not sure if that will work well in the currently proposed layout, but we'll see.

The rangetop takes up approximately the height of a cabinet's top drawer.  So there is still quite a bit of storage space remaining in the cabinet.  

Also, I neglected to mention that I would recommend placing the microwave in close proximity of the refrigerator if possible.

We love our bluestar oven and microwave drawer. Do you want to come check them out? Call or PM if u don't have my number.

This is the Thermador range we got. Love it. Model PRG366GH http://www.thermador.com/cooking/ranges/prg366gh-36-inch-professional-series-pro-harmony-standard-depth-all-gas-range

Interesting; I never considered the microwave with regard to its proximity to the refrigerator. I'm more concerned about the order of fridge, range, and sink. The current proposed layout has the fridge, then range on one wall, and the sink on the perpendicular wall at the far end from the fridge after we push out an extra 6'. I feel like it should be fridge then sink then range, but I'd prefer the sink at the back, allowing room for a window over it, on the side where the sun rises. Maybe the fridge could go on the sink wall at the opposite corner, but that will make the fridge farthest from the dining room entrance.

I thought I remembered that you had the BlueStar, hauscat. Would love to come by to see; I'll PM you.

Thanks, TigerLilly. I'll add that one to the list. I'm still trying to understand the difference between open vs. sealed burners. The Thermador looks like it's sealed, no? I also still need to get a better handle on what the BTU levels really mean. I have no idea how many BTUs my current stove puts out, but I find that when cooking in a wok, for example, I just can't get it hot enough. On the other hand, that burner refuses to simmer, and I need to use a diffuser to keep food from boiling at the lowest flame in a covered pot.

one thought...if you go with a 36" range then the oven is huge and takes longer to heat up.  We are planning our remodel as well and I want a 36" range top but not a 36" oven so I'm going with wall ovens.

I haven't picked appliances yet either.  The range top is my only high end appliance, and my main considerations are burner layout (being short I like burner size options in the front), dual burners for simmering, and looks.  All of the ones I have looked at have high enough BTU for me.  I was also looking at open burners but decided I didn't think the cooking difference would be that big, plus I already tend to burn things!   I was leaning toward DCS and then I saw one installed and it juts out pretty far from the cabinets, not in love with that.  Not crazy about the Thermador on/off clicking thing when you simmer (my friend has one) but I like the star shaped burners.

Too much to think about!  We are also keeping our kitchen aid dw and getting more basic double wall ovens and a side by side full depth frige as I hate my French door bottom freezer.

I've heard there is a good appliance showroom in Westfield (Top Line maybe?).  Karl's in Madison is a decent size but their Orange showroom is under construction so they are confined to a small room with few pieces.  Also AJ Madison online has a lot of brands to compare and get some prices as a starting point.  I'm more focused on figuring out what I want first and the I will shop price.

Good luck!

Yes, wendy, my friend has a Thermador cook top that does that on-off clicking in simmer mode and it is sort of annoying. And good point about the large oven. Those 48" ranges with the large and small ovens are cool, but crazy expense aside, I don't know if we can spare that much room, and I really don't need that many burners.

Truthfully, I probably don't need even 6 burners, but I like the idea of having options, especially when a large pan takes up more than its allotted burner, even if they do just turn into expensive trivets most of the time. There are just too many choices/decisions. I knew this was going to make me crazy, and we've barely started.

I like the range tops vs. the cook tops for that reason, the burner size is bigger so my wide pans fit.  I brought my widest pan with me shopping (hubby thought I was a nut) which convinced me I wanted a range top.  On the cooktops the knobs took up either a burner space in the middle (and I want 6 burners) or were on the side which made all of the burners smaller.

I think Wolf has eliminated the clicking problem .  I can check for you all.

We've made an initial pass through Karl's in Fairfield, but it raised almost as many questions as it answered, so I still need to do some more homework, plus wait until we have some initial design drawings to figure out what will even work.

But for now, I'm trying to figure out quality and capacity. Quality-wise, I thought I'd never even consider it, but I'm seriously thinking about Sub-Zero. Does anyone have one and think it was worth the price both functionally and aesthetically? If we decide to splurge, I'm leaning towards stainless vs. panel overlay, as that where's-the-refrigerator-hiding look is almost too perfect for me.

Capacity-wise, we looked at the 36" over/under and, I think, the french door, but the capacity of the freezer at that size and depth (24") is actually less than my current refrigerator's top freezer, which seems ridiculous. I definitely wanted more space in both sections, and don't know if I'm sold on that bottom bin freezer arrangement, where stuff just stacks on top of more stuff. So then I was thinking of going with a side-by-side, but the sacrifice in refrigerator space is now making me think we should bump up to the 42", which is even more crazy expensive, but heck, once you're going for broke, what's another few hundred?

Thoughts on side-by-side vs. over/under vs. french door? And if you're going to tell me that you have a second freezer in the basement so it's okay to have a small one in the kitchen, well, I don't know that I want to go that route, since a) it's yet another appliance I need to buy and make space for, and b) I don't know that I need *that* much freezer space. We're a small family, not a caterer.

If it's helpful to help me sort this out, here are the capacities for the following models:

Model - refrigerator cu. ft./freezer cu. ft.

current 32" Maytag top freezer - 12.8/5.7

36" over/under - 16.4/5.3

36" side-by-side - 12.4/8.2

42" side-by-side - 16.3/8

42" french door - 18.3/6.4

they generally don't get great reviews. My feeling has always been, I was my refrigerator to keep things cold and my freezer to freeze things. There don't need to be too many bells and whistles. Are you getting a top of the line range? I could see spending the money on that because some of the higher end brand have features the lower end brands do not. 

Does the layout dictate that you must use a counter depth fridge? There are others that provide a streamlined look without the price tag of the sub zero (and the repair headaches they're known to have). 

Thanks, shh. The thing that's appealing about the Sub-Zero, at least on paper, is the fact that it has two separate compressors - one for the freezer and one for the refrigerator - so that it keeps the temperature, humidity, and air completely separate between the two. It also has an air purification filter that supposedly removes ethylene gas to limit spoilage. From what I've read and heard, it keeps food fresher, longer. One of the biggest issues I have with our current refrigerator is too much moisture and condensation, and produce, especially greens, not lasting well.

On the other hand, I do see a fair number of complaints on consumeraffairs.com about them, but there are even more complaints about other brands.

Regarding a range, we're leaning towards a Bluestar, so yes, another expensive appliance.