I don't need to go on a ride along to know what cops do. I know what cops do. I don't care about good cops- good cops don't beat, kick, tase or shoot first and obfuscate later.  I care about bad cops. Bad cops lie and kill indiscriminately and some good cops protect them. When good cops protect bad cops they become bad cops and therefore part of the problem- period. 

If you're a cop and you're rattled by people calling you names- you got the wrong job, quit. If groups of kids scare you- quit. If you're afraid of Black or brown people in general and your post puts you in contact with them- transfer or quit. 

I'm sick of people asking for Black people to "understand what cops do for a living" or that they find a "meeting of the minds" or any other idiotic request. Law enforcement works on behalf of the public, not the other way around. Black people don't need extended face time with cops to understand why their lives may be at risk at a traffic stop.

Get this straight- Black people don't need to find a way to live with indiscriminate and extrajudicial killing or physical abuse by law enforcement. They don't need to negotiate their existence with law enforcement. We are due the same exact amount of respect that any other citizen is due- period. 

There is no need to point out good cops- all cops are supposed to be good cops. You don't get points for doing the job you were hired to do. The proper reaction to bad policing is not to point at cops who are doing a good job as if their existence balances out the bad cops- it doesn't. The proper response to bad cops is to eradicate them. The proper response to bad cops is to penalize them for abusing the trust of the public. The proper response to bad cops is to hold them responsible for any and all actions that violate the rights of the people they are paid to protect.

Lastly, I went to school in DC 30 years ago and I lived in Maryland. PG County cops have always had a problem with Black folks and immigrants- then and now. Google "PG County cops racist" and enlighten yourself. Maybe people didnt respect them on your ride along because they're tired of generations of their families being treated like shite.

Just the response expected by someone like you.  I don't care about good cops, its their job, dont like it qiit.  And if I said i don't care about you getting stopped by a cop for doing something wrong and when you made a stupid move like reaching in your pocket instead of doing as told and you got shot I am the racist.

People like you are why we are where where we are in this world today.  Ii can admit there are bad cops and they should be punished, you on the other hand are always abused and mistreated. Your sense of entitlement is the real problem.  

Let me know when you are ready go have intelligent open-minded conversation.  Until then keep rambling on your racist crap. But I won't engage in it. 

EricBurbank said:

Let me know when you are ready go have intelligent open-minded conversation.  Until then keep rambling on your racist crap. But I won't engage in it. 

You asked for an honest conversation, without the fear of being called racist or politically incorrect. You got the start of one. Then look what happened.

This line didn't help:

".....or just go by the high school as it lets out or to a Friday night football game where CHS plays Orange, East Orange, or Newark."

DaveSchmidt said:

EricBurbank said:

Let me know when you are ready go have intelligent open-minded conversation.  Until then keep rambling on your racist crap. But I won't engage in it. 

You asked for an honest conversation, without the fear of being called racist or politically incorrect. You got the start of one. Then look what happened.

EricBurbank said:

And we never want to admit when the black person is in the wrong, or give a cop the benefit of the doubt for fear of being called a racist.

Speaking of honest conversations, 11 other Essex County residents and I had two days of them in a jury room last week. In the end all 12 of us decided that the Newark police detective was convincing (along with other evidence) and that the black person charged with pointing a gun at her during a chase was in the wrong.

Scully said:

So the fact that at one point he got a 100% vote of no confidence from the officers under him means nothing...

Check your facts, in particular, the dates and the circumstances.  What you write here is out-of-context and it misrepresents the facts.  

This is a thread on a local issue and should remain that. 

Regardless of any unconscious or conscious motivation,  the report shows a chief who not only did not follow established best procedures to de-escalate crowd situations by acting to disperse the crowd and in fact took action to concentrate the crowd to herd it which was potentially very dangerous. 

Also it shows a chief unwilling to accept feedback and counsel and who created an environment where employees are scared to offer it. 

This in itself are reason enough to make a change. 

this is more than just good cops vs bad cops.   This is a quasi militaristic operation that gets less and less associated with the public it is here to serve and protect.  The. Antagonism that was described about and towards the police is well earned due to police actions.  If police want to rid themselves of a racist label then the answer is not ride alongs it's to not act in prejudicial manners. 

I have many police friends, it's easy to see the majority of police are just doing the job and doing it well but don't come here talking about understanding each other as if it's the public who misrepresents the relationship. 

yahooyahoo said:

This line didn't help:


".....or just go by the high school as it lets out or to a Friday night football game where CHS plays Orange, East Orange, or Newark."

exactly.  I've been to a lot of CHS games, and the crowd control situation looks the same to me whether we've played East Orange, or Seton Hall, Montclair or Kearny.

I used those schools because I have been to those games where the kids were out of control and ready to start a brawl.  The police notified parents to come get their kids rather than lock them up and the parents made the accusations of racism.

And as far as the line about going by the high school - you have never been there when the kids are blocking traffic because there are hundreds of them ready to fight (white and black)? 

All I am saying is it is not as clear cut as you would think to be a cop these days.  Throw race in to the mix and it becomes a lot harder.  Someone screams racism and everyone jumps on board. 

Hoops, you say "The. Antagonism that was described about and towards the police is well earned due to police actions.  If police want to rid themselves of a racist label then the answer is not ride alongs it's to not act in prejudicial manners. "

You made my point, you believe that it is the cops acting prejudicial without hearing both sides.

DaveSchmidt said:

EricBurbank said:

Let me know when you are ready go have intelligent open-minded conversation.  Until then keep rambling on your racist crap. But I won't engage in it. 

You asked for an honest conversation, without the fear of being called racist or politically incorrect. You got the start of one. Then look what happened.

You are right I shouldn't have posted that.  Got heated by Filmbro's comments.

when do Philando Castillo, Tamir Rice, Sandra Bland, Walter Scott and all the rest of the unarmed murdered by cops going to get to tell their side?

Sorry, the job is the job. Improving the relationship between police and public is not the publics responsibility. 

Again, please note the threat title "

Police, community crisis in Maplewood

This is not the thread for general discussion about the situation in the nation.

ska said:

This is not the thread for general discussion about the situation in the nation.

When I was at the Essex County courthouse last week, I briefly met Acting Chief DeVaul in the cafeteria line. I hope that localizes my previous post to everyone's satisfaction.

To me, for what it's worth, Maplewood is not distinct from what's going on in the nation. The issues are tied together.

ska said:

Again, please note the threat title "

Police, community crisis in Maplewood

This is not the thread for general discussion about the situation in the nation.

I have been trying to keep,it local.  I acknowledge that the kicking incident was over the line and required disciplinary action which was taken.

I also posted the YouTube video of a Maplewood incident where the police under Chief Ciminio acted appropriately under a tense situation.  So to scream for his dismissal for one incident in which he was not on the scene seems a little harsh. 

Back in the day I started and ran an open gym at Seth Boyden for the kids in the neighborhood.  Part of that program was to get the police and the youth to establish a relationship.  The chief and officers were all on board and stopped by every night, they thought it was a great idea and the kids liked it too.  

So to paint them as racists seems just a little over the top. Did they make some mistakes?  Maybe.  But are they racists?  No.

ska said:

Again, please note the threat title "

Police, community crisis in Maplewood

This is not the thread for general discussion about the situation in the nation.

With all due respect, it's the same thing. In this case the outcome was not deadly but the mindset was the same.  The abandonment of common sense/decency, the inability to see African Americans as full citizens deserving of a modicum of respect, the failure or absence of effective training and the initial attempt to control the narrative and avoid detection by withholding information- all of this matches what has become standard operating procedure when it comes to certain police actions involving Black, brown and or poor people.

EricBurbank said:

ska said:

Again, please note the threat title "

Police, community crisis in Maplewood

This is not the thread for general discussion about the situation in the nation.

I have been trying to keep,it local.  I acknowledge that the kicking incident was over the line and required disciplinary action which was taken.

I also posted the YouTube video of a Maplewood incident where the police under Chief Ciminio acted appropriately under a tense situation.  So to scream for his dismissal for one incident in which he was not on the scene seems a little harsh. 

Back in the day I started and ran an open gym at Seth Boyden for the kids in the neighborhood.  Part of that program was to get the police and the youth to establish a relationship.  The chief and officers were all on board and stopped by every night, they thought it was a great idea and the kids liked it too.  

So to paint them as racists seems just a little over the top. Did they make some mistakes?  Maybe.  But are they racists?  No.

Good work on the gym. 

When Black kids are herded to the nearest border of an adjoining Black town it's racist. It's also a mistake. You might also say it was ignorant, stupid or poorly thought out. Take your pick but you don't get to rule out racism. Not unless you can provide an example of unruly white kids in Maplewood village being force marched to downtown Millburn.

I've seen the same thing in neighboring towns, executed by Black and Latino cops and involving African American children- those cops were also driven by racist ideas about Black children.  The problem is with law enforcement that institutionalizes racist attitudes and stereotypes.  

Perhaps you should be less concerned about cops being called racist and more concerned with actual racism.

I am quite concerned about actual racism.  And have fought against in many of times and still do.  

The point about being escorted to the border is understandably considered racist.  However, two things come to mind in this particular situation.  1) The number of kids at that location, Boyden and Elmwood.  There are only 2 streets left in Maplewood beyond that location so I think the assumption was they didn't all live in Maplewood.  2) The expectation that kids in Maplewood don't behave that way.

Before you jump on me for the last comment think about it.  Ask yourself why you live in Maplewood and not Irvington or Newark?  I chose Maplewood to bring my kids up in a diverse neighborhood where everyone had values and respect.  And I believe I have accomplished that.  While some might perceive my comments as racist they are way off base.  What I am trying to do is open an honest dialogue on what drives people to feel the way they do towards the police or race in general specifically in Maplewood.

Getting back to the topic, I hear what you are saying that it is the cops job to earn back the trust of the black, brown, and poor communities.  But do you not think some of the responsibility lies with those same groups to give some respect back?  Meaning a cop shouldn't assume a black young male is going to come at them nor should that same young black male assume the cop is a racist.

Racism exists big time to this day but until BOTH parties are willing to admit their part it will never be resolved.

EricBurbank said:

I am quite concerned about actual racism.  And have fought against in many of times and still do.  

The point about being escorted to the border is understandably considered racist.  However, two things come to mind in this particular situation.  1) The number of kids at that location, Boyden and Elmwood.  There are only 2 streets left in Maplewood beyond that location so I think the assumption was they didn't all live in Maplewood.  2) The expectation that kids in Maplewood don't behave that way.

Before you jump on me for the last comment think about it.  Ask yourself why you live in Maplewood and not Irvington or Newark?  I chose Maplewood to bring my kids up in a diverse neighborhood where everyone had values and respect.  And I believe I have accomplished that.  While some might perceive my comments as racist they are way off base.  What I am trying to do is open an honest dialogue on what drives people to feel the way they do towards the police or race in general specifically in Maplewood.

Getting back to the topic, I hear what you are saying that it is the cops job to earn back the trust of the black, brown, and poor communities.  But do you not think some of the responsibility lies with those same groups to give some respect back?  Meaning a cop shouldn't assume a black young male is going to come at them nor should that same young black male assume the cop is a racist.

Racism exists big time to this day but until BOTH parties are willing to admit their part it will never be resolved.

This hole is getting deep. 

There are two parties involved here. One lives in a room in somebody else's house and takes Algebra the other carries a gun and has the legal authority to take lives. Good cops and reasonable people understand the importance of this distinction- you should as well. The bulk of responsibility, maturity and common sense and adherence to a well defined set of instructions will always be on the adult cop- not the child. 

To your other points numbers 1 and 2- I can't follow the logic.  Black kids gathered close to the border of another town must live in that other town? Kids in Maplewood are perfect? Isn't the reality that in this case both assumptions were wrong because they were based on racist or at the least classist stereotypes about African Americans?

For the record I am not saying it is the job of the cops to 'earn back' the trust of African Americans. African Americans should be expected to conform to the law just like everyone else. What I'm saying is that we should expect civility and respect from law enforcement at all times and that civility and respect should not require us to fulfill any special task like ride alongs or 'understanding' what being a cop entails. We shouldn't need to meet any special requirements to enjoy the same rights that everyone else does just by waking up every day.

Racism does exist 'big time' as you say but I am perplexed about how Black folks should go about admitting 'their part'. What exactly is their part? This idea suggests that you may not be clear on how racism or any other 'ism' works. Would the same strategy work for anti Semitism or sexism? Would women and Jews fare much better if they simply owned up to their roles in creating and maintaining their own subjugation or second class treatment?

I am talking racism from police to the extent of how they act towards a group of people.  In this case black people.  You yourself acknowledge that they should conform to the law just like everyone else.  Yet in most (Not all) cases where the problem of racism comes in to play, such as in this case they are not conforming to the law.  They were being disorderly and confrontational.

Was stereotyping used in this situation? Probably.  But could it have been based on previous experiences? I think that played more into the decisions then race did.  

Going back about 6 or 7 years ago when other towns stopped the fireworks Maplewood was mobbed by out of towners.  I worked the event and witnessed firsthand what took place by the 100s of youth from Irvington and Newark.  Yes it was clear where they were from by their comments of F... these white crackers from this town as they proceeded to throw firecrackers in to the crowd, or jumped on the police cars, and made comments about f...ing these people up.  Other proof that they were from out of town was the route they took home.  Oh and did I mention they ransacked the 7-11 on Valley st on their way out?  

I am being very serious on this next question, coming from a white male who does not know the answer and I am assuming that you are a black male and maybe you could shed some light on it.

Why do some young black males feel the need to be disorderly and disrespectful to authority figures or just in general?  I am not saying all nor am I being sarcastic or being racist.  Some examples: calling them names, walking in the middle of the street blocking traffic, defying orders, walking with their pants below their *** and so on.  

I am 1 of 4 white guys out of about 80 employees and the two guys I work with on a daily basis and are like family to me don't have the answer other than to say they are just stupid.   I think it is more than that but don't know the answer.  Do you? 

As someone who grew up in the Bronx in the 70's, and has seen the same patterns in the poorer areas I've lived:

When we called the Police for help, they didn't come...

...but when we were just having fun or hanging out, then the cops would just happen to come along and harass us.

So, in that way, distrust, animosity, and anger builds.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes, when you argue with someone, maybe a spouse, have you ever been so angry and irritated that you also want to make your spouse angry and irritated?  Maybe it's something like that. 

@sprout, I can see what you are saying.  But at some point don't the both of you realize if it continues the marriage will end?  So you agree to work things out or come to a compromise, or do you end up in a divorce?  It seems as if many would like to see the bitter angry divorce rather than work things out.

I grew up in Jersey City during my high school years and we were moved along many of nights by the police.  Were we pissed at them? Sure, but we also knew we were wrong and let it go at that.  We didn't grow up hating cops and taunting them. In fact as you can tell I am very pro-police and pro- law and order.

I can care less what you do in your own house or even on the street as long as it doesn't impact another person negatively.  

My whole point on this matter is that I don't feel labeling all cops racist is fair.  And that is what a lot of the protests are doing.  Even the protest in Maplewood.  A couple of cops made bad judgement calls that went over the line and they were disciplined. Does that mean every Maplewood cop or the chief and captain in this situation are racists? In my opinion...No.  But apparently I am in the minority on this one.

I will never know what it is like to be a black man in this world.  But I do try to look at it with an open mind and I do fight for them where I think an injustice has occurred. And I do the same for a cop or for that matter anyone I can. 

As I stated early, I am sure many are thinking I am a racist but they don't know me if they do.  I have a record to say otherwise or I wouldn't be posting under my real name since the majority of the town knows who I am.  

I was looking to have an open-minded conversation about this incident and race in general in Maplewood.  I have stated my views and have agreed with others on some of their points but I think I am going to bow out of this topic since it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

I thank those of you who expressed some views openly and tried to make this an honest dialogue.  Maybe one day we will run in to each other and have a more open and detailed conversation.  You know who I am but I don't know most of you so it will be on you to bring it up.  I hope that happens.

Eric

EricBurbank said:

@sprout, I can see what you are saying.  But at some point don't the both of you realize if it continues the marriage will end?  So you agree to work things out or come to a compromise, or do you end up in a divorce?  It seems as if many would like to see the bitter angry divorce rather than work things out.

If it seems like an abusive relationship that one cannot leave, then divorce could be the desired outcome. 

Thank you Eric for your thoughtful honest posts, I too ask myself the same questions.  I read the recent report of the incident, by one of the kids' mom; something that stuck in my head, how he "spit the pepper spray out of his mouth accidentally landing on the officer" (not verbatim, forgive me, but saying the spitting was not intentional).  It's a sad situation and deeper than we can even reach, and the anti-cop protests are only making the tensions and divide bigger.  I agree also, as I have driven by the school at times you mentioned, and it seems like a dangerous war zone, blocking traffic, making comments and seemingly looking for trouble.  Sure I"ll get piled on, white privilege etc..but there is no respect for parents let along authority.  It's a bad situation and I hope the incidents of late become teaching moments to raise our kids the best we can yet to remind our law enforcement that the are supported, and that racism will not be tolerated --when in fact it is proven.

Back to local, letter of recommendation was removed from the agreement. 

We know from the report that crowd control measures were warranted, but the specific actions taken were not appropriate.

I wish we knew why the Chief chose to march the crowd to Irvington. 

I wonder what happened to the majority of the crowd when it reached Irvington.  Did large numbers of people turn around and return to their homes in Maplewood or did the crowd largely disperse within Irvington?  

the police work for the public, not the other way around.  If law-abiding citizens feel harassed or bullied by the police, the onus is on the police to fix the relationship.  Throughout my lifetime, I've been as law-abiding as a person can be.  And I'm white.  And yet, when I was younger almost all my experiences with cops were negative.  I guess a young white man in a beat up old car profiled as a drug user (which I was not).  Being pulled over on a dubious premise wasn't out of the ordinary.  With that as my own personal history, I completely sympathize with black men, who have to deal with those sort of hassles 10 times more often than I ever did. And they have to be concerned that if they make a sudden move, they could get shot.  I never felt like I had to worry about that.

Sure, those authoritarian cops might only make up only 5% or 10% of a police force.  But if those cops are 50% of your experience with the police, what should anyone expect will be the opinion of cops?  And it should be on police departments to work on that, not for the public to respect cops more.

There exist behaviors which are (1) inexcusable and also (2) to be expected. Think about that: they are both inexcusable and expected at the same time. This is very true for teenagers and more so for minorities. So we have to deal with things that are expected. Right?

Minorities tell us they get pulled over, stopped, harassed, etc. frequently. It's not hard to imagine that they don't see the police as working for them. Yet this can be true while at the same time most cops are not racist. You don't need an entirely racist police force to expect racist behavior from a randomly chosen cop.

Why did the cops drive the kids to the border? Possibly not out of an expectation that the kids belonged there but because it makes the kids no longer the Maplewood police's problem. That's just a guess.

Tom_Reingold said:

Why did the cops drive the kids to the border? Possibly not out of an expectation that the kids belonged there but because it makes the kids no longer the Maplewood police's problem. That's just a guess.

Would they have been herded to the border if they were white?

BG9 said:
Would they have been herded to the border if they were white?

Who can answer that?