Plastic Bags

Tall_Mocha said:
This will cause people to buy more Trash bags which are bigger and thicker thus causing more damage to the environment but kudos for trying to take a step in the right direction. I suppose fast fashion is next with the way they're clogging up landfills

 One great thing is that big trash bags tend to find their way into landfills as opposed to the thin plastic ones that we see on the side of the road, in the river or lodged in the tops of trees. So even if what you predict does come to pass (which it won't, the numbers just don't add up) it will be a net gain for the environment.

peteglider said:
and now we read to not wash clothes, or as little as possible,  because that releases Plastic...  time to go all cotton?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48908413

"Every time we wash our clothes an average of nine million [plastic] microfibres are released into the environment," she tells BBC News. "The way we wash our clothes affects this, as well as the way our clothes are made - but the more we wash our clothes, the more microfibres are released."

 A couple of years ago, washing powder companies were advertising 'microbeads to help scrub away those persistent stains'. Make us all wonder now, doesn't it??

Klinker said:

Tall_Mocha said:
This will cause people to buy more Trash bags which are bigger and thicker thus causing more damage to the environment but kudos for trying to take a step in the right direction. I suppose fast fashion is next with the way they're clogging up landfills

 One great thing is that big trash bags tend to find their way into landfills as opposed to the thin plastic ones that we see on the side of the road, in the river or lodged in the tops of trees. So even if what you predict does come to pass (which it won't, the numbers just don't add up) it will be a net gain for the environment.

The numbers do add up.  Big issue in CA, who saw a soaring increase in plastic bag purchases.

For me it’s a wash... bags from Kings, et.al. currently reused once for cat litter will simply be replaced with cheapass ones bought at Target.  

Recent survey amongst many:

From the chart’s source study:

Using quasi-random policy variation in California, I find the elimination of 40 million pounds of plastic carryout bags is offset by a 12 million pound increase in trash bag purchases—with small, medium, and tall trash bag sales increasing by 120%, 64%, and 6%, respectively.

Klinker’s “net gain for the environment”: 28 million pounds of plastic bags in a year.

DaveSchmidt said:
From the chart’s source study:
Using quasi-random policy variation in California, I find the elimination of 40 million pounds of plastic carryout bags is offset by a 12 million pound increase in trash bag purchases—with small, medium, and tall trash bag sales increasing by 120%, 64%, and 6%, respectively.
Klinker’s “net gain for the environment”: 28 million pounds of plastic bags in a year.

 And that is only one state, though admittedly large.  Let's win this fight, and then fight the next one to replace those trash bags with something compostable that works.

The real problem is not trash bags, but the amount of trash we produce.

drummerboy said:
The real problem is not trash bags, but the amount of trash we produce.

 Of course.  But what is your point?  Should all initiatives be stopped?  Statements like yours are used to deflect people from achievable goals when the overall issue is still overwhelming.  Let's pick the low hanging fruit.  There's nothing wrong with that.

FilmCarp said:

drummerboy said:
The real problem is not trash bags, but the amount of trash we produce.

 Of course.  But what is your point?  Should all initiatives be stopped?  Statements like yours are used to deflect people from achievable goals when the overall issue is still overwhelming.  Let's pick the low hanging fruit.  There's nothing wrong with that.

no, not at all. I'm not trying to deflect anything. Just trying to point out what I think is the real issue.

I think the government should be doing much more to eliminate the amount of trash that's produced. Wasteful packaging, for example, should be regulated in some way. More should be done to replace plastics with biodegradable material.

ctrzaska said:

Klinker said:

Tall_Mocha said:
This will cause people to buy more Trash bags which are bigger and thicker thus causing more damage to the environment but kudos for trying to take a step in the right direction. I suppose fast fashion is next with the way they're clogging up landfills

 One great thing is that big trash bags tend to find their way into landfills as opposed to the thin plastic ones that we see on the side of the road, in the river or lodged in the tops of trees. So even if what you predict does come to pass (which it won't, the numbers just don't add up) it will be a net gain for the environment.

 
The numbers do add up.  Big issue in CA, who saw a soaring increase in plastic bag purchases.

 But that is a meaningless statistic without knowing how big the decline in retail plastic was.  The relevant number would be the total amount of plastic used for bags.  I am guessing that would be dramatically lower.  For every bag used on cat litter, there are ten going in the garbage or into the wind.

ETA:  Just read Schmidt's comment down thread. Nice to have immediate confirmation.

Klinker said:

ctrzaska said:

Klinker said:

Tall_Mocha said:
This will cause people to buy more Trash bags which are bigger and thicker thus causing more damage to the environment but kudos for trying to take a step in the right direction. I suppose fast fashion is next with the way they're clogging up landfills

 One great thing is that big trash bags tend to find their way into landfills as opposed to the thin plastic ones that we see on the side of the road, in the river or lodged in the tops of trees. So even if what you predict does come to pass (which it won't, the numbers just don't add up) it will be a net gain for the environment.

 
The numbers do add up.  Big issue in CA, who saw a soaring increase in plastic bag purchases.

 But that is a meaningless statistic without knowing how big the decline in retail plastic was.  The relevant number would be the total amount of plastic used for bags.  I am guessing that would be dramatically lower.  For every bag used on cat litter, there are ten going in the garbage or into the wind.

Right-- Or you could refer to DS's post on how big the decline was in retail plastic:

DaveSchmidt said:
From the chart’s source study:
Using quasi-random policy variation in California, I find the elimination of 40 million pounds of plastic carryout bags is offset by a 12 million pound increase in trash bag purchases—with small, medium, and tall trash bag sales increasing by 120%, 64%, and 6%, respectively.

Klinker’s “net gain for the environment”: 28 million pounds of plastic bags in a year.

sprout said:

Right-- Or you could refer to DS's post on how big the decline was in retail plastic:

Yup.  I replied to the post and then edited it (see above) as soon as I read Schmidt's post. I tend to reply as I go which, occasionally, results in the awkward cross post.

Agree that packaging is the real culprit. The nationwide increase in single-person households is fueling the food industry's trend towards more single-serving packaging of their products.  The trend away from scratch cooking that was the norm in the pre-plastics era is fueled by the increase in multi-wage earner households increasing the demand for take out meals.  Long range, there are fundamental changes to our society needed before a packaging reduction will become significant.  Baby steps seem necessary at this time; but, not at the expense of long term planning.

It is worth noting that if people do what is best for their health and shop "the perimeters" of the grocery store that packaging waste goes way down. What is good for us is also better for the planet.

It would be better still if stores allowed you to use reusable produce bags instead of the plastic bags on offer in the produce department. I am pretty sure that their concern is shoplifting. I wonder how big an issue that really is, and how it is weighed against the long-term benefit of reducing excess plastic in the environment.

BTW are those produce bags part of the plastic bag ban, or does it just cover checkout bags? I didn't think of that until just now. If they are included in the new law, that would be a big incentive to do my grocery shopping in Maplewood.

HatsOff said:

It would be better still if stores allowed you to use reusable produce bags instead of the plastic bags on offer in the produce department. 

No supermarket has stopped me from reusing produce bags.

BTW are those produce bags part of the plastic bag ban, or does it just cover checkout bags? 

The ban exempts bags used inside stores to “package bulk items, such as fruit, vegetables, nuts, grains, candies or small hardware items.”

The reusable produce bags I linked to above are transparent so no shoplifting concerns. Whole Foods sells something similar in their produce department. 

Whole Foods has stopped me from using my own clear reusable bags. This was a while ago and I don't shop there much any more - a lot of things about that place got on my nerves. I still run in for the odd thing now & again, but try to get in and out as quickly as possible. I seem to recall seeing the sign up recently saying that "you are not permitted to shop into your own reusable bags but they are encouraged at checkout" - something like that.

why aren't single use bags recyclable? Is it JUST because they are called "single use"? 

HatsOff said:
Whole Foods has stopped me from using my own clear reusable bags. This was a while ago and I don't shop there much any more - a lot of things about that place got on my nerves. I still run in for the odd thing now & again, but try to get in and out as quickly as possible. I seem to recall seeing the sign up recently saying that "you are not permitted to shop into your own reusable bags but they are encouraged at checkout" - something like that.

 I definitely use mine there, at Stop and Shop and at Trader Joe’s. 

the18thletter said:
why aren't single use bags recyclable? Is it JUST because they are called "single use"? 

 I don’t know but the ones at Trader Joe’s are compostable which is pretty cool. They do have an odd odor...

how about I pinky promise to reuse the thing.  then can I get a goddamn plastic bag?

Single use plastic carry out bags are presently recyclable if you bring them back to a store that has a collection bin for this purpose.  I routinely bring these bags to Millburn ShopRite when I have an overstock of them.  This service may change as more municipalities in our area place an outright ban on these bags.

joan_crystal said:
Single use plastic carry out bags are presently recyclable if you bring them back to a store that has a collection bin for this purpose.  I routinely bring these bags to Millburn ShopRite when I have an overstock of them.  This service may change as more municipalities in our area place an outright ban on these bags.

My understanding is that those bags are not actually recycled, they are just taken to the landfill. The procedures for recycling plastic in that form are not, currently, commercially viable.  Thus the bans.

Robert_Casotto said:
how about I pinky promise to reuse the thing.  then can I get a goddamn plastic bag?

 Nope.

speaking of single use ...

SO... a bag ban is all well and good but can we do something about all the f***king styrofoam used at restaurants in town???

PurpleMonkeyDshwashr said:
SO... a bag ban is all well and good but can we do something about all the f***king styrofoam used at restaurants in town???

 Styrofoam has been banned in Maplewood for many years; but, the ordinance has not been enforced.  I have been told that that the TC is now reviewing the ordinance to see if any changes need to be made at this time. I assume that the ordinance will be enforced once this review is compete.