Permit Required?

We are in Maplwood.  We are planning to renovate a full bathroom, where we won't change the location of the shower, sink, toilet, etc.  However, everything will be replaced (and the bathroom will be pretty much stripped down to the studs).  FWIW, our renovation will be the second or third for this bathroom (which is not original to the house).  Permit required?  Thanks

If you ask, the answer will be yes.  If you don't ask and don't get one I don't expect there to be any consequences.

Some people prefer to have them to avoid any questions or issues when selling.

Don't you want the work to be inspected? Unless you're an electrical and plumbing expert, how would you know that they did it right?

shoshannah said:

Don't you want the work to be inspected? Unless you're an electrical and plumbing expert, how would you know that they did it right?

This is a common misconception.  The inspector only checks that things are installed to code.    An installation can meet code, but the pipes could still leak or the wiring be incorrect for the intended purpose.  The inspector does not take the time to trace wires, check fitting tightness, etc.  

To answer the OP, I have been told by two contractors that anytime you open up walls (other than for a repair) a permit is required. In the OP's case, be sure to state "direct replacement" on the permit application. It's not a big deal, other than having to pay the permit fee, which is expensive. 

Most contractors, electricians and plumbers won't do a job like this without a permit. It's not worth their being fined. If you find some contractor who is willing to do it without a permit, just be sure that you haven't done anything to piss off a neighbor. 

Actually, there are contractors who will do this type of renovation without a permit and I don't believe it's at all uncommon. Obviously, there's some risk of being fined later on down the road but to do the job with a permit may mean an interruption at each step while inspection occurs (and, waiting for the inspector to show up, which  I hear, can take days.)

I've heard stories of jobs being interrupted and contractors disappearing to do other work in the meantime. 

cubby said:

I've heard stories of jobs being interrupted and contractors disappearing to do other work in the meantime. 

I had that problem when adding a new room. The biggest delays were the permit steps. They get to a point and then have to wait for inspection and approval to continue. A good and busy contractor won't be hanging around doing nothing during the waits.

As to a remodel of a bathroom, I don't know. Does replacing wallboard and tiling require a permit? Its not that the structural base like the studs are being replaced. And I'm pretty sure replacing an appliance such as a toilet or bathtub doesn't require a permit.

I'm pretty sure a permit is "required." I'm also pretty sure that the type of renovation OP is doing, is often done without a permit. I can tell you that I know of 2 contractors who do lots of work in this part of NJ and basically suggest not getting the permit for that type of job.

Why not get a permit? What is the downside?

cubby said:

I'm pretty sure a permit is "required."

Why do you think a permit is required? To change the wallboard an tiles? To replace an appliance? Do people who go to Home Depot who buy new toilets and up getting permits when replacing?

LOST said:

Why not get a permit? What is the downside?

As said above, delay time and cost.

How long does it take to get a permit and how much does it cost? If it takes more than a day or two to get a necessary permit and if it costs more than a nominal amount then  it is a problem that should be addressed and corrected.

LOST said:

How long does it take to get a permit and how much does it cost? If it takes more than a day or two to get a necessary permit and if it costs more than a nominal amount then  it is a problem that should be addressed and corrected.

I think that the delay that BG9 was referring to is not that in actually getting the permit but the delays involved in getting the inspectors out to do the rough inspections. In South Orange, the plumbing and electrical inspectors do inspections Tues. and Thurs. They, as well as someone from the building department, have to come out and do the rough inspections. This means that the contractor generally has downtime of a least a couple of days, at best. The inspectors are busy, so they have to be scheduled usually a week ahead. This takes good planning on the part of the contractor and the good ones know how to minimize downtime. 

I've had two bathroom renovations done in the last two years and the permit fees have totaled $375:  Building $250, Electrical $50, Plumbing $50, DCA fee $25. 

We're doing another bathroom renovation starting in Sept. (we have a lot of bathrooms) and I'm getting a permit. We have plaster walls and tile and we're going down to the studs and taking-up the tile floor.  

Thanks all, for your input.  My conerns are 1) taxes (incease in property taxes); 2) sale of house; and 3) cost.  I'm not at all concerned about our contractor, or his subs.  No. 2 will trump (which will ultimately be driven by No. 1).

Tatonka said:

Thanks all, for your input.  My conerns are 1) taxes (incease in property taxes); 2) sale of house; and 3) cost.  I'm not at all concerned about our contractor, or his subs.  No. 2 will trump (which will ultimately be driven by No. 1).

1) If you are only replacing what is there, not changing the number or position of fixtures or size of the room or adding an additional bathroom, I doubt that there will be a lot of change to your taxes. 2) Taking out permits may (or may not) help with ease of getting through contract phase of a home sale. 3) Yes, there is a cost for permits ... like taxes, helps pay to have the township staff that keep things running smoothly and help to keep up the properties in our town.  (JMO)

People don't usually decide against getting a permit in order to avoid paying for it along with the inspections. Again, it's the downtime waiting around for each inspection to be done. When you're having your only bathroom renovated, the wait time is especially bothersome.

cubby said:

People don't usually decide against getting a permit in order to avoid paying for it along with the inspections. Again, it's the downtime waiting around for each inspection to be done. When you're having your only bathroom renovated, the wait time is especially bothersome.

Exactly.  We just finished doing exactly what the OP is doing to their bathroom, and we got permits and had all the inspections, etc., frankly because our contractor told us we needed to, and we wanted to be all proper and whatnot.  The downtime waiting for the various inspections along the way probably added about 10-15 days to the whole process, which wasn't ideal given it's our only full bathroom.  That said, if we could do it all over we'd probably still get the permits.

cubby said:

People don't usually decide against getting a permit in order to avoid paying for it along with the inspections. Again, it's the downtime waiting around for each inspection to be done. When you're having your only bathroom renovated, the wait time is especially bothersome.

The OP said that the bathroom is not original to the house, so I suspect that they have another one (that was original), but I suppose I could be wrong about that.

weirdbeard said:

cubby said:

People don't usually decide against getting a permit in order to avoid paying for it along with the inspections. Again, it's the downtime waiting around for each inspection to be done. When you're having your only bathroom renovated, the wait time is especially bothersome.

Exactly.  We just finished doing exactly what the OP is doing to their bathroom, and we got permits and had all the inspections, etc., frankly because our contractor told us we needed to, and we wanted to be all proper and whatnot.  The downtime waiting for the various inspections along the way probably added about 10-15 days to the whole process, which wasn't ideal given it's our only full bathroom.  That said, if we could do it all over we'd probably still get the permits.

Waiting for inspections added 10-15 days?? That's nuts. I gutted an entire kitchen. The contractor scheduled each inspection about a week out. He or one of his guys came to the house to wait for the inspector each time. The contractor or his employee was out of commission for half a day while they waited. Construction was halted one day for each inspection -- but only for that part. If it was the electrical inspection, the plumber could still be doing work, or the cabinet guy could be there.

A renovated bathroom could add to your home value which could add to your real property tax. Even if you decide against getting a permit for this reason, the bathroom remodeling would be noted during the next revaluation/reassessment and your real property assessment adjusted accordingly at that time.  Less likely, but possible, is that lack of permit on file for the renovations could be noted at that time as well. IMO, this is not a smart or effective reason to skip the permit process. 

The bathroom renovation described by the OP should not result in an additional assessment, particularly if "direct replacement" is put on the application for a permit, if it's decided to get a permit. The best way to find out is to contact the tax assessor. Just tell him what you're doing and that it's a direct replacement. You don't have to give him your name. 

One of the components of the real property assessment is the age of each bathroom.  If the bathroom is deemed "new" the assessed value will be higher than if the bathroom is valued as "old" or "average."  Same is true for kitchens.   Impact may not be much.  Town assessor could provide an estimate in advance if this is a factor in deciding whether to do the renovation.

shoshannah said:

weirdbeard said:

cubby said:

People don't usually decide against getting a permit in order to avoid paying for it along with the inspections. Again, it's the downtime waiting around for each inspection to be done. When you're having your only bathroom renovated, the wait time is especially bothersome.

Exactly.  We just finished doing exactly what the OP is doing to their bathroom, and we got permits and had all the inspections, etc., frankly because our contractor told us we needed to, and we wanted to be all proper and whatnot.  The downtime waiting for the various inspections along the way probably added about 10-15 days to the whole process, which wasn't ideal given it's our only full bathroom.  That said, if we could do it all over we'd probably still get the permits.

Waiting for inspections added 10-15 days?? That's nuts. I gutted an entire kitchen. The contractor scheduled each inspection about a week out. He or one of his guys came to the house to wait for the inspector each time. The contractor or his employee was out of commission for half a day while they waited. Construction was halted one day for each inspection -- but only for that part. If it was the electrical inspection, the plumber could still be doing work, or the cabinet guy could be there.

We were told that Maplewood has a new building inspector and that the whole process has slowed down as a result -- what used to take 1-3 days now takes 7-10.  Our contractors did the same as yours did.  But part of it was on the contractor -- he went to schedule the rough-in inspection, thinking it would be at most a week out and instead it was nearly two weeks out. 

Two of the General Contractor's favorite targets to explain delays to an owner are: the Architect/Designer, and the building inspector. Rarely will the GC ever admit to not adequately scheduling inspections or ordering materials in a timely manner.

So let's say (purely hypothetically speaking, of course) you had central air installed a few years ago, and as a new resident in town and a first-time homeowner, you didn't realize you needed a permit. What's the possible fine here? Does anybody ever get fined for this?

Get the permit. Its designed to protect you. 

Yes, it can be a pain, yes, some projects may end up valuing your home higher for taxes, but in the end you have inspection and sign off from the city. If you have work done without permit, you may run the risk of homeowners insurance not covering losses such as electrical fire or damage from plumbing. 

There can be fire safety issues if the duct work for your central air was not put in according to code.  Scheduling an inspection is preferable to a structural fire.  

MikeZ: It is possible the hypothetical Contractor got the Permit and didn't specifically inform the homeowner.

truth said:

MikeZ: It is possible the hypothetical Contractor got the Permit and didn't specifically inform the homeowner.

I think the homeowner would know if there was a permit taped to his front window. He'd also know if he paid for it.

shoshannah said:

He'd also know if he paid for it.

Yep. Whenever I've had work done on my house, the contractor expects to be reimbursed for the cost of permits pretty much the same day he gives the town the check. That's always a separate line item, payable immediately and hard to overlook.