NY Times trashing our school district today
I read the print NY Times. The article is in today's paper and the headline is:
"Diverse Town Is Divided by Plan to Desegregate Schools"
To me the discussion is deja vu all over again.
Pairing Seth Boyden and Tuscan was discussed in the late 90s. The Tuscan Parents fought it successfully. There were many contentious Board Of Ed meetings. There were committees and proposals. One rather odd proposal called the East-West Plan sparked a militant campaign against it. The Marshall-Jefferson pairing was "tweaked" so both schools had a third grade.
I believe that a principal reason this controversy persists is because the Towns are "diverse" and progressive. As one poster pointed out there are Towns close by with almost no African Americans. Do we think that the folks in those Towns see that as a problem?
There are other Towns who may have larger A-A populations and "segregated" schools where the powers that be don't see it as a problem.
I note the NY Times article did not mention or compare us to any other Town in NJ
mrincredible said:
The current official solution on the table seems to be this.
For elementaries pretty much do away with the idea of neighborhood schools. Then find a way to transport students around the district to achieve roughly equal ethnic breakdowns at each school. I think that's the busing plan the Times article refers to.
For middle schools combine the 5-8 population. All 5-6 graders at one middle school and all 7-8 graders at the other. So full integration of the entire district student population occurs at age 10 or so.
I thought that they took the 5-6/7-8 split plan for the middle schools off the table (?)
sac said:
I thought that they took the 5-6/7-8 split plan for the middle schools off the table (?)
They did. That isn't happening. I also see a lot of posts on this thread and others by parents whose kids have been out of the schools for some time. Those folks don't necessarily know about the current policies. That is making this discussion harder, especially on FB.
One of my kids is still in the school system and I’m very aware of the issues, especially at CHS. Look, racial and s-e integration is hard and any solutions will probably make no one completely happy. But at least so far, I’d rather be in our messy, disgruntled, struggling system than in any of the alternatives.
,
FilmCarp said:
They did. That isn't happening. I also see a lot of posts on this thread and others by parents whose kids have been out of the schools for some time. Those folks don't necessarily know about the current policies. That is making this discussion harder, especially on FB.
Okay. Thanks for the correction. I personally liked the idea, but maybe it's too difficult logistically.
Rivoli said:
If people prefer not to deal with the difficult issues of systemic racism, they should consider Millburn (1.6% A-A), [...]
There are a lot of ways to be “diverse”, it’s confusing for people new to the area who hear “diversity” and don’t realize that it only means “significant percentage of poor black residents”.
kmt said:
Rivoli said:
If people prefer not to deal with the difficult issues of systemic racism, they should consider Millburn (1.6% A-A), [...]
There are a lot of ways to be “diverse”, it’s confusing for people new to the area who hear “diversity” and don’t realize that it only means “significant percentage of poor black residents”.
While true, the current trend is for wealth to run away from lower-SES students (GreatSchools.org has only perpetuated this with their ratings that correlate with wealth). The result is severe segregation by SES, which perpetuates the historical segregation by race, where that segregation was by skin color.
Here's a graph of how segregated NJ schools are by SES and by the percentage of Black and Hispanic students in a school. The correlation is .90, which is outrageous.
You can see the cluster of wealthier predominantly White and Asian schools in the lower-left, and the cluster of poorer predominantly Black and Hispanic schools in the upper-right. .. And the most space between the school dots is seen the the center, which is where the most 'diverse' schools by SES and these race combinations would be.
My my. What a piece of....work... Ficarra is. He says “some of the parents” gave him real trouble. No specifics, just an assertion, used to slime an entire community... one that hired him and invited him to lead the education of our children.
People have said things to me about things Ficarra has done. Dark, terrible things.
Who? People! People have said it.
And then we have Thelma Ramsey, with the sort of relationships with the sort of people that get you contracts to deliver reports in PowerPoint format that look like they were done by a child.
Is Maplewood perfect? No. But to have this collective clownshow of re-treaded pension double dippers, dilettantes and bomb throwers taken as the authority on Maplewood in the self-styled paper of record is a bit much.
Edit to add: According to NYT, she left without generating a report. So that garbage was $78,000?? She should have the decency to cash the check and keep her yap shut.
Jackson_Fusion said:
Edit to add: According to NYT, she left without generating a report. So that garbage was $78,000?? She should have the decency to cash the check and keep her yap shut.
At the risk of answering a rhetorical question: It didn’t sound like she got $78,000 (and leaving wasn’t her decision).
Why Was the Schools Racial Equity Consultant’s Work Stopped Early? (Maplewoodian, 2/14/17)
If you establish that being poor correlates with being black (or any specific ethnicity), what exactly do you conclude from that?
These discussions always seem to assume causes and intents that aren’t in evidence.
kmt said:
If you establish that being poor correlates with being black (or any specific ethnicity), what exactly do you conclude from that?
These discussions always seem to assume causes and intents that aren’t in evidence.
That's because the evidence of the intents are already documented:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0049089X17305422
The persistence of white flight in middle-class suburbia
These results not only confirm the continued salience of race for white flight, but also suggest that racial white flight may be motivated to an even greater extent in middle-class, suburban neighborhoods. Theoretically, these findings point to the decoupling of economic and racial residential integration, as white flight may persist for groups even despite higher levels of socioeconomic attainment.
kmt said:
There are a lot of ways to be “diverse”, it’s confusing for people new to the area who hear “diversity” and don’t realize that it only means “significant percentage of poor black residents”.
To me that is not a definition of "diversity" but it seems that "diversity" has become a euphemism for that.
@sprout, there you go again. Even if your new argument is true, then you’re saying that white people with resources are more likely than those without resources to move away from black people. That’s yet another statistical argument, and could be used to justify exactly the opposite conclusion to the one you’re making.
kmt said:
That’s yet another statistical argument, and could be used to justify exactly the opposite conclusion to the one you’re making.
can you explain this?
kmt said:
ml1 said:
kmt said:
That’s yet another statistical argument, and could be used to justify exactly the opposite conclusion to the one you’re making.
can you explain this?
White people leave. So what? Maybe they were right to leave.
Should an individual's freedom of movement be limited based on race, or, perhaps, socio-economic background?
Messr. Kye (author of "The persistence of white flight in middle-class suburbia") is only one researcher. Additionally, because the publication is behind a paywall I am unable to access the publication. Instead, I am able to access a truncated version of the publication's abstract (likely NOT written by Kye).
=================================================
According to Kye's website: I am a Ph.D. candidate in the sociology department at Indiana University. My research examines racial inequality in the metropolitan United States. I am particularly interested in the mechanisms that facilitate or prevent the formation of racially diverse and integrated neighborhoods.
My primary work involves analysis of both U.S. Census and individual-level data to understand how and why residential segregation persists. My other technical projects have examined—and sought to improve—the methods researchers use to assess neighborhood racial/ethnic change and stability. I also research trends in Asian American (racialized) assimilation, with a keen interest in the rise of “ethnoburb” communities.
See: samuelkye.com
According to Messr. Kye's CV his dissertation is titled: "The Macro and Micro Foundations of Racial Residential Segregation". See: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5cbb9870ad02610001a098ef/t/5d5ecc3208b6430001d5cbe6/1566493746063/research-cv-082219.pdf
Messr. Kye: "My dissertation begins by examining how contemporary patterns of white flight and avoidance perpetuate racial residential segregation at the neighborhood level."
See: https://www.samuelkye.com/research
=======================================================
Messr. Kye is biased by definition. His thesis asserts "patterns of white flight and avoidance perpetuate racial residential segregation at the neighborhood level" before he concluded his research (as you would expect). Thus, Mr. Kye's professional and economic fortunes require him to continue to publish/research in support of this thesis.
PS Does not mean that his thesis is incorrect. Just that more support from others is needed.
kmt said:
ml1 said:
kmt said:
That’s yet another statistical argument, and could be used to justify exactly the opposite conclusion to the one you’re making.
can you explain this?
White people leave. So what? Maybe they were right to leave.
The 'so what': Systemic racism maintains economic disparity by race. For example:
1. When the White well-off people leave, Black well-off families who purchased homes in the neighborhood will see the value of their homes drop. The result: owning-a-home-while-Black results in less increase in home equity (and in this case, results in a decrease in home equity) than owning-a-home-while-White.
(See for example, http://www.demos.org/sites/default/files/publications/RacialWealthGap_1.pdf )
2. White families with resources move away from Black families, whether the Black families have resources or not, but do not generally move away from White families without resources.
This trend is reflected in school demographics as poor White students are likely to go to school with mostly wealthier White students. However, poor Black students mostly go to school with other poor students of color.
It's part of white privilege to say 'So what?' when systemic racism perpetuates economic inequality by race.
@proeasdf
I have the full PDF of the peer reviewed article "The persistence of white flight in middle-class suburbia."
@jamie : Is there a way to post or message a PDF document?
For the moment, here is the full abstract:
The persistence of white flight in middle-class suburbia
Samuel H. Kye
Scholars have continued to debate the extent to which white flight remains racially motivated or,
in contrast, the result of socioeconomic concerns that proxy locations of minority residence.
Using 1990–2010 census data, this study contributes to this debate by re-examining white flight
in a sample of both poor and middle-class suburban neighborhoods. Findings fail to provide
evidence in support of the racial proxy hypothesis. To the contrary, for neighborhoods with a
larger non-white presence, white flight is instead more likely in middle-class as opposed to poorer
neighborhoods. These results not only confirm the continued salience of race for white flight, but
also suggest that racial white flight may be motivated to an even greater extent in middle-class,
suburban neighborhoods. Theoretically, these findings point to the decoupling of economic and
racial residential integration, as white flight may persist for groups even despite higher levels of
socioeconomic attainment.
sprout said:
I have the full PDF of the peer reviewed article "The persistence of white flight in middle-class suburbia."
@jamie : Is there a way to post or message a PDF document?
For the moment, here is the full abstract:
The persistence of white flight in middle-class suburbia
Samuel H. KyeScholars have continued to debate the extent to which white flight remains racially motivated or,
in contrast, the result of socioeconomic concerns that proxy locations of minority residence.
Using 1990–2010 census data, this study contributes to this debate by re-examining white flight
in a sample of both poor and middle-class suburban neighborhoods. Findings fail to provide
evidence in support of the racial proxy hypothesis. To the contrary, for neighborhoods with a
larger non-white presence, white flight is instead more likely in middle-class as opposed to poorer
neighborhoods. These results not only confirm the continued salience of race for white flight, but
also suggest that racial white flight may be motivated to an even greater extent in middle-class,
suburban neighborhoods. Theoretically, these findings point to the decoupling of economic and
racial residential integration, as white flight may persist for groups even despite higher levels of
socioeconomic attainment.
Thanks!!!
sprout said:
The 'so what': Systemic racism maintains economic disparity by race. [...] poor White students are likely to go to school with mostly wealthier White students. However, poor Black students mostly go to school with other poor students of color.
You’re missing my point. We aren’t required to live together, and if some white people leave some place there can be many good reasons for doing it.
If I’m living in Maplewood and I decide that the schools aren’t a good place for my kids, it’s completely reasonable for me to consider moving. We all have that right.
Why do people make that decision? It’s not enough to say that it’s correlated with skin color, that doesn’t address the “why” at all.
kmt said:
You’re missing my point. We aren’t required to live together, and if some white people leave some place there can be many good reasons for doing it.
If I’m living in Maplewood and I decide that the schools aren’t a good place for my kids, it’s completely reasonable for me to consider moving. We all have that right.
Why do people make that decision? It’s not enough to say that it’s correlated with skin color, that doesn’t address the “why” at all.
Why do you think the white migration patterns are correlated with race?
kmt said:
sprout said:
The 'so what': Systemic racism maintains economic disparity by race. [...] poor White students are likely to go to school with mostly wealthier White students. However, poor Black students mostly go to school with other poor students of color.
You’re missing my point. We aren’t required to live together, and if some white people leave some place there can be many good reasons for doing it.
If I’m living in Maplewood and I decide that the schools aren’t a good place for my kids, it’s completely reasonable for me to consider moving. We all have that right.
Why do people make that decision? It’s not enough to say that it’s correlated with skin color, that doesn’t address the “why” at all.
On an individual basis, sure, people move all the time.
But trends are a concern. The trend of White-flight is a so named because, it is about race and class. If you listen to Nikole Hannah-Jones' piece "The Problem We All Live With" https://www.thisamericanlife.org/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-one , (or read the transcript: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/562/transcript) a bit after the half-way point you can hear a board of education meeting after it was announced that lower-income students of color were going to be bused to their district. The parents in the wealthier school district indicated:
- they would leave the district;
- families were withdrawing from negotiating on houses in their district
This is before anything had changed. Sure -- it's one's right to leave the district if they are unhappy, but at this point the district had the same everything: curriculum, teachers, principals, AP courses, extracurriculars, etc., as it had before.
This white-flight was simply in response to the race and class of the students who were expected to be bused in at a future date.
ml1 said:
Why do you think the white migration patterns are correlated with race?ml1 said:
kmt said:
You’re missing my point. We aren’t required to live together, and if some white people leave some place there can be many good reasons for doing it.
If I’m living in Maplewood and I decide that the schools aren’t a good place for my kids, it’s completely reasonable for me to consider moving. We all have that right.
Why do people make that decision? It’s not enough to say that it’s correlated with skin color, that doesn’t address the “why” at all.
Or, more specifically, why do you think Millburn’s schools were able to offer whatever it was that made them a better fit than SOMSD for your child? If they were less diverse in their way and more diverse in the “significant percentage of poor black residents” way, do you think they’d be making the same decisions and setting the same priorities that drew you there?
The article is quite accurate. Sometimes the truth hurts or maybe being exposed is what hurts the most. *Shrug*
Not in Millburn, but in our case, yes, I think our district would offer the same opportunities with a supposed influx of lower income, minorities. We have modern facilities, so we have nowhere near the repair bills or infrastructure issues that MSO has. This leaves us free to invest in areas that affect all children.
1) We are very tech centric, starting middle school every student gets an iPad. Kids can collaborate online, don’t have to worry about textbooks, have access to teacher and class notes and assignments. Cost per year is about $25 for iPad insurance. Few lost, none that I have heard of stolen.
2) Classroom improvements- all teachers have functioning technology in their classrooms, white boards, red-cats, large library with well trained staff.
3) Free half day PreK.
None of these are in any way race or income related. If you were to swap out the top 20% with an influx of a 20% of lower incomes, all this stuff would still exist and would benefit all kids.
DaveSchmidt said:
[...] why do you think Millburn’s schools were able to offer whatever it was that made them a better fit than SOMSD for your child?
Millburn didn’t eliminate levels.
kmt said:
Millburn didn’t eliminate levels.
I’ll change the pronoun to reflect your reply, but otherwise the question remains: If it were less diverse in its way and more diverse in the “significant percentage of poor black residents” way, do you think it’d be making the same decisions and setting the same priorities that drew you there?
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Although we were zoned for Tuscan, I sent my two kids to Seth Boyden because its "multiple intelligences" model (this was about 10 years ago) was a better fit for my girls (especially my oldest). They thrived and I loved the community. They rode the bus, and it was absolutely no big deal for them. For me, as a working single mom, it was actually a benefit so I could get an earlier train.
If people prefer not to deal with the difficult issues of systemic racism, they should consider Millburn (1.6% A-A), Livingston (1.2% A-A), Chatham (0.14% A-A) or any of the many virtually all-white towns all around us. You'll pay the same taxes, those schools are higher ranked academically, and there's not enough diversity to make their racism obvious. But for those of us who choose to live in a racially diverse community, we are going to face uncomfortable issues.