No Deal on Brexit

The beauty of the bureaucratic thicket is that even if removing oneself from it is the best course, it cannot be done without extreme pain.

In what way is the basic feelings of Brexiters about the EU different from the basic feelings of Scottish Nationalists about the UK or South Carolinians to the USA in 1861 or Venetians to a united Italy in the 19th Century?

Should the World be moving toward Balkanization or toward unity?

If the British are so different from the Flemish or see the Poles as so alien then what do people like Congressman Steven King mean by "Western Civilization?

terp said:
The beauty of the bureaucratic thicket is that even if removing oneself from it is the best course, it cannot be done without extreme pain.

 I wold think that you would understand that it's just trading one "bureaucratic thicket" for another.

terp said:

 That's actually a great argument for decentralization of government.  Having 1 governing body to manage large landmasses with heterogeneous peoples/cultures doesn't scale particularly well.   Even if democratically elected, there are likely to be many who will feel they are not represented and are even being forced to do and pay for things they strongly disagree with.  

Decentralization may mean less government in theory but in practice it just leads to more government because of more government strata. You and I are subject to the Federal Government, the State Government, the Municipal Government and to some extent the Board of Education.

STANV said:

terp said:

 That's actually a great argument for decentralization of government.  Having 1 governing body to manage large landmasses with heterogeneous peoples/cultures doesn't scale particularly well.   Even if democratically elected, there are likely to be many who will feel they are not represented and are even being forced to do and pay for things they strongly disagree with.  

Decentralization may mean less government in theory but in practice it just leads to more government because of more government strata. You and I are subject to the Federal Government, the State Government, the Municipal Government and to some extent the Board of Education.

It depends.  The American Republic was conceived so that the local governments would govern the most and the Federal Government would be pretty limited.   We've spent the last Century plus inverting that model.  

The way things stand now, I would say that in this country, that may be correct.  And I think, much to our detriment.  I contend that it is untenable to impose programs on very large numbers of people(10's of millions).  It is difficult to understand the unique needs, wants, challenges, and perspectives of a large numbers of people.   It is the conceit that we could plan for these things where centralized governments get tripped up. 

Although, we do see things turn the other way from time to time.  The States have legalized marijuana even though its still technically illegal at the federal level.  The Federal Government, by and large, has stood by and watched as this law has been effectively nullified. 

A great quote from Nassim Taleb's "Skin in the Game":

"I am, at the Fed level, libertarian; at the state level, Republican; at the local level, Democrat; and at the family and friends level, a socialist."--Geoff and Vince Graham 

terp said:

A great quote from Nassim Taleb's "Skin in the Game":
"I am, at the Fed level, libertarian; at the state level, Republican; at the local level, Democrat; and at the family and friends level, a socialist."--Geoff and Vince Graham 

Taleb follows that by stating, “If that saying doesn’t convince you of the fatuousness of left vs. right labels, nothing will.”

I have a quote from a buddy of my own, Ralph Chapman, who, oddly enough, is as loose with his pronouns as the Brothers Graham:

“We are, at the Week 17 level, Bears fans; at the wild card and divisional playoff levels, Eagles fans; at the conference level, Chiefs fans; and at the Super Bowl level, who knows?”

If that saying doesn’t convince you of the fatuousness of making my self-interested pal a totem for how to run the NFL, nothing will.

DaveSchmidt said:

terp said:

A great quote from Nassim Taleb's "Skin in the Game":
"I am, at the Fed level, libertarian; at the state level, Republican; at the local level, Democrat; and at the family and friends level, a socialist."--Geoff and Vince Graham 

Taleb follows that by stating, “If that saying doesn’t convince you of the fatuousness of left vs. right labels, nothing will.”
I have a quote from a buddy of my own, Ralph Chapman, who, oddly enough, is as loose with his pronouns as the Brothers Graham:
“We are, at the Week 17 level, Bears fans; at the wild card and divisional playoff levels, Eagles fans; at the conference level, Chiefs fans; and at the Super Bowl level, who knows?”
If that saying doesn’t convince you of the fatuousness of making my self-interested pal a totem for how to run the NFL, nothing will.

That's right.  He was talking about how societies scale.  About how people treat those close to them in a more collective manner because the feeling is they have skin in the game with their immediate community.  However, as you scale up, people lose this.  

BTW:  You root for whoever is playing the Patriots in the Super Bowl. 

STANV said:
In what way is the basic feelings of Brexiters about the EU different from the basic feelings of Scottish Nationalists about the UK or South Carolinians to the USA in 1861 or Venetians to a united Italy in the 19th Century?
Should the World be moving toward Balkanization or toward unity?
If the British are so different from the Flemish or see the Poles as so alien then what do people like Congressman Steven King mean by "Western Civilization?

For mankind to survive, we have to move towards unity.  Otherwise, the future will be something like one of the dystopian worlds depicted in shows like The 100 or Divergent or The Hunger Games.

And Trump made official yesterday the re-invigoration of the nuclear arms race to improve ABMs to counter hypersonic Chinese and Russian missiles.  So, this arms race will put the great powers on a hair trigger when deciding how to respond to news of a first strike.  Instead of 15-20 minutes before the missiles arrive, you have 5 or 10 minutes.  Not good.

Nothing better than a cold war to move mankind towards unity

Leaked footage of Theresa May from Downing Street security camera.

I'm sure nobody wants the no confidence vote to succeed because they might have to do her job.

Brexit Vote 2019.  Best Two out of Three.

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terp said:

basil said:

lord_pabulum said:
That's your opinion db.  My opinion is Brussels overreach.  But you tend to muddle facts and opinion.

People that say that a democratically elected government is overreaching typically mean that the government is making them do stuff that they don't agree with (like pay more taxes, or pay less taxes, or mandate healthcare, or whatever). For example in the US, conservatives would always say all the time that the federal government was overreaching and it should leave this stuff to the states. Of course, now that they control the federal government, they feel the opposite. So it is a very subjective and temporary emotion.

 That's actually a great argument for decentralization of government.  Having 1 governing body to manage large landmasses with heterogeneous peoples/cultures doesn't scale particularly well.   Even if democratically elected, there are likely to be many who will feel they are not represented and are even being forced to do and pay for things they strongly disagree with.  

No, it's not. It will lead to Balkanization, which we all know leads to instability and war.

If we look at elections in the US and Western Europe, we know that heterogeneity is not between countries (landmasses), but between urban vs rural areas, for example:

- In the UK, London (and other big cities) overwhelmingly voted to stay in the EU and feel close to Europe, they are much closer to other Europeans than to the rural areas of the UK that voted for Brexit

- in the US, major cities, even in the reddest states, vote Democratic. Trump won Mississippi by almost 20% in 2016. Hillary won the largest county (Hinds - Jackson) by almost 45%

The UK Mint has issued a new coin to commemorate Brexit...

Did I hear correctly, the Queen offered to have Phillip drive Theresa May home last week?

photo's up above Basil's post.