NJ Umemployment Quiting Exceptions

I don't know what I am going to do.  I don't want to jam the other guys up. This is the last stop for a lot of these guys and he knows it.

There is no time clock so proving the hours would be next to impossible. Calling the Labor Board would require other guys backing up the allegations and that isn't going to happen.  They all talk to me about it but don't want me to say anything to him or to take action against him. 

I am going to see how things work out for them over the next couple weeks now that I am gone.

You doing something might have the opposite impact- he might be forced to treat and pay people fairly

conandrob, the phrase you are looking for to search is "constructive discharge". It's the idea that a job has made such changes that it's tantamount to having been fired.

Eric:   If the employer is doing something illegal, such as over-reporting what he is paying these employees on the employer's tax returns, pursuing the problem could result in putting the employer out of business.  This wouldn't help the employees you are concerned about but could help future victims.  A difficult decision indeed.

Thank you! But does it have to be that extreme? The “tantamount to being fired” is tripping me up. Other people are taken by these commission-only jobs but she’s seen how much $ you see in the company and knows what a joke they are. It’s still a job just not one that resembles her original pay structure at all.

Pangur1 said:

conandrob, the phrase you are looking for to search is "constructive discharge". It's the idea that a job has made such changes that it's tantamount to having been fired.

I went thru a similar thing in NY.  I left employment due to the employer making changes to the number of hours /days that we had to work (more hours for same weekly salary).  I quit  and then appealed the decision when my application for unemployment was denied since I quit.  I went to a hearing and took another former employee with me who left the firm as well (he did not file for unemployment).  I won - and the employer then went back to the promised work schedule for all other employees (this was a company with 43 locations and over 1,000 employees).  Everyone told me I could not win including a labor attorney.  I said that is nonsense and someone needed to make a stand.  

Only problem was I could not use them for a reference but seemed like a small price to pay to force a company to be fair.  The company still exists but is down to only one company owned location (they license their name to hundreds of locations around the northeast).  

What was the difference in hours/pay? I read something about it has to amount to a certain percent reduction in pay- like 20% or something like that.

And since I read how these exceptions vary state to state, I really wish I had a definitive answer for NJ.

Since it was a restaurant, the hours were insane anyway -- but originally it was supposed to be 12 hours shifts with 5 days one week, 6 the following.  At least one sunday a month off.  Instead they made us do 6 days every week and 12 hours usually turned into 14.   Plus we were never supposed to have our day off following a night shift -- but that was ignored as well.  

the judge said the 2 extra days per month plus not getting the one sunday a month off was more than enough by itself.  

by the way, I also know that very often with smaller companies they choose not to pay for an attorney to go fight the appeal since the cost  is too great.  An attorney is not required by either side, but rarely does the employer want to take the time to go themselves.  So it always makes sense to appeal since if they do not show up you win by default.  

And when you accept the job, this should all be in writing in a formal offer. After a bad experience when I was in my 20s, I will never accept another job unless the terms are in writing in a formal offer.                                        

conandrob240 said:

there is no such thing as a Day Rate. Either you are salaried or hourly. And if you aren’t salaried and you aren’t getting paid for the # of hours you worked in a day, forget unemployment, this guy is in violation of basic labor laws

If it was presented as an offer, what happens if she does not accept?  Will she get fired or is her job eliminated?  Either way, I think she could collect unemployment.

conandrob240 said:

Where can I find a list of the exceptions to the "Quit rule" for NJ unemployment?

Friend has worked same sales job (mix of inside and outside sales) for 7 years with a $60k a year base salary plus commission. Travel expenses were covered in full when she travels 1-2x a month for a few days. 

Employer wants to switch this person to the new payment structure they are hiring people at (for a slightly different sales role- more outside than inside). It's more of a contractor model- no base salary, no benefits, commission only and no reimbursement for travel expenses. (Sounds awesome, huh?)

She may quit if they push this. Right now it was presented as an offer.

I read that most states have a protection where you can still collect if you quit due to dramatic changes in salary/compensation or hours or role. Can't seem to confirm anywhere that NJ has that protection?

TIA

so, in my friends case, she has her original offer letter/terms of the base salary ($50k at the time) plus commissions. Commissions were never detailed out at that time it really since - they’ve changed every year (often in the wrong direction) and they continue to give her clients away to these new no salary people they are hiring. So, it’s gone from a base pay that was roughly equal to the commission amount to base pay plus maybe 10-20% commission on top. So it has sucked for a while.

The new structure was presented to her last week by a new leadership team member. Apparently they’ve brought in a new set of investors to “right” the ship. He presented t as some great idea. It’s a NE territory that includes Maine with no expenses or mileage reimbursed. No salary, no benefits. Obviously, higher commission potential than she has now but 1) company is tanking and 2) the commissions aren’t very high to begin with nor is the volume

What will happen is she says no thank you?

conandrob240 said:

so, in my friends case, she has her original offer letter/terms of the base salary ($50k at the time) plus commissions. Commissions were never detailed out at that time it really since - they’ve changed every year (often in the wrong direction) and they continue to give her clients away to these new no salary people they are hiring. So, it’s gone from a base pay that was roughly equal to the commission amount to base pay plus maybe 10-20% commission on top. So it has sucked for a while.

The new structure was presented to her last week by a new leadership team member. Apparently they’ve brought in a new set of investors to “right” the ship. He presented t as some great idea. It’s a NE territory that includes Maine with no expenses or mileage reimbursed. No salary, no benefits. Obviously, higher commission potential than she has now but 1) company is tanking and 2) the commissions aren’t very high to begin with nor is the volume

I don’t exactly know what happens if they say “sorry, this is how it is”. I guess she’d not sign it and see if they fire her. Getting fired would be the goal if they try to force the new pay structure. I guess if you refuse to sign it, they’d just ask you to leave? Not really sure. 

The funniest part of the whole thing is that she is almost solely their bread and butter. She is the only person who produces 100+% of wuota every month. The difference between the commission of someone at 10% vs 100+% of quota is comical. Literally maybe $50 a month.

They were structured as a customer service call center originally so they gave no clue how to structure commissions as people transitioned to sales vs inbound customer service.

What is the new commission structure? What is the price of the average sale? In other words, is she likely to make anywhere near the income if the commission rate is increased?

Also, you indicate the company is tanking. If so, she would be out of a job in a year or so anyway. But then, she would have little or basis for unemployment. Unemployment is a percentage of salary over a period of (probably) three years. Since the three years of salary would diminish, month after month -- you get the idea.

There is a cap on how much per week also.  I think it was around $600 per week. Not sure how long you can collect in NJ either.

when you are at a range of $50k or higher,you’d get the max so not worried about that. As I said, commissions are so low now, they amount to about $8k a year or less but even if it went to zero,the base of $60k still there. So it would always be max UE payout.

The new role is unknown but from what she’s seen in the business, the sales are so small, it would be damned near impossible to make $50-60k in commission only. Even if the commission was 5x what's given now. then you’d have to deduct from that all the driving/travel expenses and healthcare costs (remember, no benefits). 

Yes and I think it’s 26 weeks. Maybe still ability to extend a bit- not sure if that still exists. That’s fine. Aware of that. There just has to be some security net because they sure as hell won’t pay severance.

EricBurbank said:

There is a cap on how much per week also.  I think it was around $600 per week. Not sure how long you can collect in NJ either.

What would I do? Sue his *** off. Demand retractions be sent to anyone who may have heard the false accusations.

What I would do is post these descriptions of people and places and issues under a pseudonym, instead of with my real name and real history. Someone is going to tell one of the people that you are publicly posting about them... and then it will eventually be found out by all of them.

“go through” with what?

One step at a time. An UE filing is a simple, basic matter. It’s usually either a quick meeting or may even be a back and forth via electronic Q&A. No one will be interviewed (other than you) or have to testify. In my previous experience, they err on the side of the employee. I’d keep it simple here. Tell why you left/were fired. you’ll have to say why you think there weren’t grounds to fire you. The employer would have to “prove” any poor performance or egregious behavior so unless they have a real paper trail, they will lose. No lawyer needed. If you quit, I think it’s a bit harder to prove because there are lots of exceptions (seems the dramatic reduction in hours/change of schedule/ reduced pay would be your best defense here.

This process has nothing to do with your ability to find work now or how hard it’s been because of the reputation thing. That can be a next step you can pursue if you decide to after the UE thing. You’d hire a labor attorney. They are usually no cost unless you get a settlement. Then it’s  a %.  I wound definitely take this step but not until after the UE issue is resolved. 

This is one time when being anonymous is better.Like sprout said. Erase it.

I deleted the posts as suggested but I don't think I put up anything that was not true so I don't see the harm. 

But maybe I am too close to it to see what you are referring to.

true or not, posting the details of potential litigation could come back to bite you in the butt. Best to not be so detailed in public forums 

True.  But as I said I don't think I would go through with it.  

Lets see what happens with the hearing on Tuesday.  Apparently they will call me to discuss and then call him while I am on the line to get his side of the story.

I have a feeling he won't answer the phone,

if he’s a no show, I think it’s even more favorable for you

I hope that is the case.  

Have not read all the posts but there is (or was) a term used in the past called "constructive firing".  It means that while you are technically quitting of your  own accord, your employer has made it very difficult to stay.  I'd look into that and label this scenario a constructive firing.  If she wouldn't have accepted the job at the new terms because she can't afford to live on that, then she is being forced to leave. 

On another thread, it was pointed out that reduction of hours/salary is a permitted grounds for leaving and collecting unemployment.