NJ State Judge Rules Against Christie's Underfunding of State Pensions in Fiscal 2015 Budget
LL_ said:
25 years in my State civil service job. Lucky if I can retire with a $30 K pension and no other benefits. Real generous!!! That's the majority of us, not the small minatory that gamed the system.
Key word - "look" generous. While tenure has always been a sore point for many folks, pensions and healthcare are relatively recent whines and correlate with the downturn in the economy. We used to laugh at salaries and bennies for "those who can't do."
GL2 said:
Steve said:
And it's okay to gore an ox so long as it is not your ox.
It's about contracts. We agree to put in X and you agree to put in X. And teachers never fail to put in X. Don't like the arrangement. Change it legally. That's how it works here in America.
I guess it was not clear that the above was a sarcastic response to Zoinks' post.
ram said:
GL2 said:
Don't libertarians believe in contracts?
Do liberal statists want actions that will increase inequality by shifting spending from programs for the poor to large pensions for the pretty well off?
No, we want to make the income tax more progressive so that we can actually pay for all of the nice things that we want and from which we derive benefits.
ram said:
The f*ck up was previous governors and legislators who realized that they could become popular by doing things that would only become affordable after they were out of office.
And people like you voted for them time and again, right?
I'm even tired of writing/reading my posts on this topic. Can't we just copy/paste some past discussion?
GL2 said:
When zz's boss is in a squeeze, does he/she take part of zz's compensation to balance the books?
Companies increasingly pay a large chunk of compensation ins bonuses that absolutely go down or are eliminated if the company is pinched. And it has happened to me and my wife.
Except that when you started, you didn't make an agreement to accept the lower salaries in exchange for tenure and certain benefits. By accepting tenure, you reduce your mobility substantially in exchange for certain protections. It's supposed to be a mutually beneficial arrangement, but when the governor simply ignores the state's obligations to improve his political position, it creates systemic problems that can only be resolved through court orders mandating compliance with the law and contracts.
Wanna whine about your tax dollar? Talk to the people who "repealed" ACA 50+ times; or the jokers who think they can legislate their way around funding exec. immigration move.
Feb 24, 2015 at 5:05am Edited
when you were hired in your private business with the understanding that you would receive a salary and be eligible for a bonus at year end, it was known that the bonus portion of your compensation was an option payment made to you only if the business had a good year and your performance was worthy of incentive compensation.
To say that you and your wife didnt get the bonuses that you were promised is to say that you didnt understand the agreement you made with your company.
To say that you and your wife didnt get the bonuses that you were promised is to say that you didnt understand the agreement you made with your company.
hoops said:
when you were hired in your private business with the understanding that you would receive a salary and be eligible for a bonus at year end, it was known that the bonus portion of your compensation was an option payment made to you only if the business had a good year and your performance was worthy of incentive compensation.
To say that you and your wife didnt get the bonuses that you were promised is to say that you didnt understand the agreement you made with your company.
I think he understands that, but was just trotting out the bogus argument in the hopes that some wouldn't understand that.
Feb 24, 2015 at 5:15am Edited
Remember this also- in 2018 when he no longer is governor, Chris Christie becomes eligible for a rather large N.J. pension himself. So even if he loses, he wins. Couple that with the federal pension he has accrued while U.S. Attorney and you'll have one of the highest paid double-dippers in the state.
As I remember, the NJ State Employees Pension Fund was one of the best in the country. It was conservatively but very successfully invested and deeply in the black. All that good money was just too hard to resist apparently because back somewhere in 1994 or 1995, another ambitious politician named, Christy (Whitman) promised the NJ voters that she would lower taxes....http://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/22/opinion/in-america-whitman-steals-the-future.html
The legislature handed Christie a bill with a tax surcharge in incomes over $1MM and a few other revenue hikes. He line-item vetoed them.
So don't tell us it's unaffordable, or that the money has to come from poverty programs. It's perfectly clear where the money can come from.
So don't tell us it's unaffordable, or that the money has to come from poverty programs. It's perfectly clear where the money can come from.
ram,
The only thing wrong with public sector compensation is that too much of it is future funded. If public sector employees were fully compensated out of current budgets with pension funding based on actuarial science instead of political science, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
The only thing wrong with public sector compensation is that too much of it is future funded. If public sector employees were fully compensated out of current budgets with pension funding based on actuarial science instead of political science, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I don't understand why there is even an option to not make the pension payments. They wouldn't refuse to pay actual salaries or make insurance payments. Pension payments are the same. It should be illegal to punt on pension payments.
ETA: This is not specific to Christie. Too many NJ governors have used this sleight of hand to help valance the budget.
ETA: This is not specific to Christie. Too many NJ governors have used this sleight of hand to help valance the budget.
To much was promised . The can may have met the end of the road with this decision. State has to have a balanced budget by June . The full Assembly is up for election in November . We never got the growth that was projected to make these numbers come true . NJ has the next to worst bond rating in the US . Never mind who made this mess. It's now on our welcome mat in a bag that was lit on fire by the judges ruling.
Yep. Whitman did it big time and I am sure it was happening before that.
exmwr said:
To much was promised . The can may have met the end of the road with this decision. State has to have a balanced budget by June . The full Assembly is up for election in November . We never got the growth that was projected to make these numbers come true . NJ has the next to worst bond rating in the US . Never mind who made this mess. It's now on our welcome mat in a bag that was lit on fire by the judges ruling.
Too much was future-funded. This allows people to pretend things don't cost as much as they do. And most voters are at least partly to blame. We don't usually elect people who tell us it is time to take our medicine.
GL2 said:
"I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."
Absolutely correct.
The employer makes a deal with the employee where the former "will gladly pay you Tuesday for the work you do today" and then when Tuesday comes employer says "sorry, I'm broke". To me it's thievery.
Maybe employees should begin demanding higher immediate compensation instead of pensions. They can then create their own "pensions" through IRAs or other forms of investment. Why do I want my boss investing my money for me?
If I understand Christie's pension proposals today he is saying he wants to replace the current model with defined contribution 401k/403b model and raise medical contributions.
Anyone know if I am right?
Anyone know if I am right?
LOST said:
GL2 said:
"I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."
Absolutely correct.
The employer makes a deal with the employee where the former "will gladly pay you Tuesday for the work you do today" and then when Tuesday comes employer says "sorry, I'm broke". To me it's thievery.
Maybe employees should begin demanding higher immediate compensation instead of pensions. They can then create their own "pensions" through IRAs or other forms of investment. Why do I want my boss investing my money for me?
Because in theory, it's actually not your money until it is due to you. With a defined benefit plan, the employee is supposed to be insulated from the vagaries of the market. If you're due $2,000/month based on your plan, that's what you get. No more, no less. If the plan earns more than is needed (hah!!!), the excess reduces future payments required. If the plan earns less, the employer pays more in to compensate.
With a defined contribution plan, you need to manage your own retirement funds. And you're subject to the ups and downs of the market.
...“Given the poor fiscal health of the pensions, we have chosen over the last several months to engage in discussions with the Pension and Benefit Reform Commission, which was charged with trying to come up with a way to provide reliable pensions and benefits that the state can afford and public employees can count on. Their work has been made necessary by the state’s long history of failing to fully fund the pension systems, which has been devastating to public employees. Their work has been made more difficult by the state’s recent failure to obey the 2011 pension funding law. We need a new approach that does not leave our members’ pensions vulnerable to the funding decisions of this Governor or his successors.
“The report the commission will release represents its attempt to do just that. Let’s be clear: based on preliminary drafts of the report that we have seen, there will be many things that NJEA disagrees with, some of them very strongly. NJEA will not accept all of its assumptions or statements and we certainly will not agree with all of its conclusions. This is a report. It is not a law, and it is not the final word on what will or must happen.
“But we commend the commission for tackling the issues directly. It does no good for anyone to pretend that our state faces anything less than a genuine crisis with regard to pensions and benefits. We know what caused that crisis, but that does not get us any closer to resolving it. Our members deserve more from NJEA’s leadership than finger-pointing and blame. They deserve leadership and solutions.
“That is why NJEA decided to provide input to the commission while it was conducting research, crafting its proposals and drafting the report. As part of a ‘roadmap’ for moving forward, we have discussed with the commission its proposal to create a new union-managed pension system funded by employees and employers. That system would replace the current system, which would be frozen at its current levels and have all of its existing liabilities funded by a constitutionally-guaranteed funding source. All pensions currently earned by active and retired public employees would be paid in full by the state. We also discussed reforms to New Jersey’s healthcare delivery system designed to deliver higher-quality care at a lower cost to employees and employers...
http://www.njea.org/news/2015/02/24/njea%20no%20agreement%20on%20pensions
“The report the commission will release represents its attempt to do just that. Let’s be clear: based on preliminary drafts of the report that we have seen, there will be many things that NJEA disagrees with, some of them very strongly. NJEA will not accept all of its assumptions or statements and we certainly will not agree with all of its conclusions. This is a report. It is not a law, and it is not the final word on what will or must happen.
“But we commend the commission for tackling the issues directly. It does no good for anyone to pretend that our state faces anything less than a genuine crisis with regard to pensions and benefits. We know what caused that crisis, but that does not get us any closer to resolving it. Our members deserve more from NJEA’s leadership than finger-pointing and blame. They deserve leadership and solutions.
“That is why NJEA decided to provide input to the commission while it was conducting research, crafting its proposals and drafting the report. As part of a ‘roadmap’ for moving forward, we have discussed with the commission its proposal to create a new union-managed pension system funded by employees and employers. That system would replace the current system, which would be frozen at its current levels and have all of its existing liabilities funded by a constitutionally-guaranteed funding source. All pensions currently earned by active and retired public employees would be paid in full by the state. We also discussed reforms to New Jersey’s healthcare delivery system designed to deliver higher-quality care at a lower cost to employees and employers...
http://www.njea.org/news/2015/02/24/njea%20no%20agreement%20on%20pensions
"New Jersey Governor Chris Christie was handed a victory when the state’s highest court ruled he doesn’t have to fund a $1.57 billion pension budget gap, defusing an issue that posed a political challenge for the potential presidential candidate.
While the ruling averts an immediate cash crunch, the pension hole continues to restrain spending on schools, tax relief and municipal aid. Christie has vowed not to raise taxes even as he acknowledges there’s no alternate plan for closing a deficit that may top $2.7 billion through June.
The New Jersey Supreme Court ruled it’s up to the state legislature to resolve the funding issue.
“This is not an occasion for us to act on the other branches’ behalf,” the court said Tuesday in a 5-2 decision.
The case is Burgos v. New Jersey, L-1267-14, Superior Court of New Jersey, Mercer County (Trenton)."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-09/christie-wins-n-j-pension-court-battle-punts-funding-crisis-iapegdvt
Look for another downgrade by the rating agencies of NJ general obligation and appropriation bonds. They took a gigantic hit in prices yesterday. They're pricing in another downgrade. Only Illinois is lower than NJ in credit ratings. Another downgrade will put NJ at the bottom.
Christie seems to have an odd view of what the word "obligation" means.
Tom_Reingold said:
Christie seems to have an odd view of what the word "obligation" means.
Not really. I will use the word in a sentence the way CC might.
"I feel obligated to sacrifice anything and everything on the altar of my personal ambition."
disgusting. there are legislative remedies for shortages in the budget that have nothing to do with cutting taxes. If NJ has an obligation, that means all of us have an obligation to fund the pensions.
The solution lies in seeing what states that have managed to get on healthy standings are doing and then copy them. -- hint -- cutting taxes for corporations and the wealthy are not what gets this accomplished.
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