More nonsense in the MMS hallways

BG9 said:

dg64 said:

sprout said:

dg64 said:

In our experience (from about 2 years ago at MMS) not every complaint of this nature (in our case, most complaints) was treated as HIB. Most often, there was no action or if there was action it was verbal action. Nothing written.

Here are the NJ DOE's recommendations of how to proceed:
http://www.state.nj.us/education/students/safety/behavior/hib/hibassistance.shtml

Yeah, sure. There are processes to escalate your complaints. The issue at MMS for a while has/had been that unless the words bullying were invoked, no one in the admin made a proactive attempt to start a HIB investigation. So, if a parent/child was not aware of what constituted as HIB they were left high and dry.

The escalation processes are exactly the processes needed when the school and district ignores an HIB complaint. Specific timelines are given. Besides documenting escalation within the education system, through county and the commissioner of education alternate options are given such as filing a civil rights complaint, filing a police report and filing a complaint with superior court.

Its a pretty good document listing responsibilities, timelines and options.

I am not trying to discount the escalation processes. They are absolutely essential. My earlier comment was written in response to sprout's assertion that the BOE already addresses HIB cases. My point was that not all complaints become HIB cases often due to inaction by school admin. Again, this varies from school to school. CHS is very good at addressing such issues.

sprout said:

Understood.
But unless there is new information or guidance to provide, this thread has likely fulfilled its potential for informing and driving action.

I am not trying to lengthen the discussion, but if I notice some factual errors in assertions, I believe I am within my rights to comment. Thanks.

I have not had a chance to read all the comments and updates on this subject but my emotions are getting the best of me and I need to say something. While the 'root cause' of sexual harassment and the objectification of girls and women is complex, one clear contributor is exactly what is being described here. Nothing or little has been done every kid in that school and other schools who do nothing knows it. This sends a clear message about how seriously it is taken, that it is not criminal, that boys will be boys, etc. The 'we don't like it but it's not serious enough to warrant a response' attitude, whether it be by kids, parents, school administrators, or law enforcement all contribute in letting kids know from an early age that it is simply annoying for girls to be sexually harassed and TOUCHED inappropriately despite not wanting to be. That they need to put up with it, that all the crap we teach about inappropriate touching is only relevant in cases of rape and even then...
I commend your daughter and her friends for their continued efforts to complain about this behavior and not give up their efforts to have it stopped. As parents we need to encourage our kids to speak up if they are being hurt or harassed. If nothing is done about it, then I think it is important to step in and protect them. To reinforce the message not only that this is not okay, but that this needs to stop NOW. That this can not go on. That this behavior warrants disciplinary action. This response is at the root of the problem in my humble opinion.

Good luck. And if your daughter and her friends are reading this, 'You go girls!! Do not stop until the boys stop. Do yourselves and them a huge favor and let them learn that no is no, that they can not treat women like toys. Before they get themselves in even more serious trouble later on. But more importantly, because your bodies are yours and you should never ever allow anyone to leave you feeling not in control of this. AND, your actions will be helping my daughters out before they get to MMS and I will be forever grateful! Good luck. If someone is not hearing you, yell louder and to more people until they do. Don't let anyone tell you you shouldn't. You are only responsible for what happens to you, not what happens to them. Good luck.'

dg64 said:

sprout said:

Understood.
But unless there is new information or guidance to provide, this thread has likely fulfilled its potential for informing and driving action.

I am not trying to lengthen the discussion, but if I notice some factual errors in assertions, I believe I am within my rights to comment. Thanks.

Apologies for my curt responses. From your post, I was encouraged to become more informed myself.

If the thread's continued discussion is disturbing people, their best bet is to stop clicking on it rather than trying to suppress discussion that has repeatedly included new posters coming forward with pertinent experience.

According to this article, April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2015/04/sexual_assault_awareness_month.html#incart_river_mobile

The group profiled claims 70% of sexual assaults go unreported.

Many victims figure what's the point? No one will help me anyway.

Jackson_Fusion said:

If the thread's continued discussion is disturbing people, their best bet is to stop clicking on it rather than trying to suppress discussion that has repeatedly included new posters coming forward with pertinent experience.

Not disturbed. Simply suggesting we reduce the likelihood of the thread spiraling into a bullying/shaming pile-on of its own.

Initial action has been taken. Police have been called in. The MOL community has been heard. Information and emotions have been shared.

I see no reason to continue to kick those who are down - and don't want us to become what we are mutually against.

sprout said:

Jackson_Fusion said:

If the thread's continued discussion is disturbing people, their best bet is to stop clicking on it rather than trying to suppress discussion that has repeatedly included new posters coming forward with pertinent experience.

Not disturbed. Simply suggesting we reduce the likelihood of the thread spiraling into a bullying/shaming pile-on of its own.

Initial action has been taken. Police have been called in. The MOL community has been heard. Information and emotions have been shared.

I see no reason to continue to kick those who are down - and don't want us to become what we are mutually against.

Let's not equate this with fat shaming or other such silliness, which is not shaming but just obnoxious judgementalism.

True shaming has a societal purpose- pointing out things for which people should be ashamed of but probably aren't. Anyone who blew off women complaining of being assaulted should be ashamed AT THE VERY LEAST.

If that's the biggest cost they pay for utterly failing at their job and at being decent people (as alleged) they are getting off light.

I assure you those critical of the response to these charges of criminal sexual contact are in no danger of becoming anything like the thing they're deploring.

You seem to have a need for shame and punishment to be experienced by the administration. If you think that's the best course of action, that is your perogative.

I am more concerned with students and administration learning what needs to be learned, implementing what needs to be implemented, changing what needs to change. Moving forward, they need to truly reduce the likelihood of future incidents of this type, of other HIB issues mentioned, generally improving the culture of the school and district as a whole, and being accountable to the students (and teachers, etc.) of the school.

There needs to be continued pressure on the District. Since my user name does not hide my identity very well I have talked to numerous people and this is a huge problem in all the schools and the District seems to have its head in the sand. We meet with the school next week so I will report back.

I wonder how this problem varies across the different districts in the state. This is not a question for which I expect an answer because I don't think data is collected and I don't think districts would be truthful, but it would be interesting to know. What I do know that that this problem is a national problem.

sprout said:

You seem to have a need for shame and punishment to be experienced by the administration. If you think that's the best course of action, that is your perogative.

I am more concerned with students and administration learning what needs to be learned, implementing what needs to be implemented, changing what needs to change. Moving forward, they need to truly reduce the likelihood of future incidents of this type, of other HIB issues mentioned, generally improving the culture of the school and district as a whole, and being accountable to the students (and teachers, etc.) of the school.

Well, I guess we could bicker and I could ask you to point out where I did as you claim, and I could question your motives for wanting it to peter out, but let's just stipulate that everyone has good intentions and no amount of wishing it away is going to change anything.

As far as school personnel needing to have it explained to them that this is a big deal, I'm sure you'd agree that the need to do so is troubling.

I didn't say this thread should peter out, i said:

While I know emotions are running high (and @cleg, I admire your restraint), perhaps the pile-on of public shaming/reprimands can be reeled in a bit.

Having worked in several public schools that included this age group I can say it is an all too common experience for girls. Despite TONS of education of students and staff. These things happen in the stairwells and corridors even if there is an adult nearby. It happens in a few seconds. No one has 360 degree vision. Kids have to know that their complaints are taken seriously. When my kid was bullied at SB years ago the principal and social worker were very proactive and in addition to dealing with the issue the same day, they followed up with her twice to be certain that nothing further happened with the kids involved.

sprout said:

I didn't say this thread should peter out, i said:

While I know emotions are running high (and @cleg, I admire your restraint), perhaps the pile-on of public shaming/reprimands can be reeled in a bit.

The problem seems to be that nothing was done for YEARS until the 'shaming' as you call it started.

If that's what it takes then why not?

dg64 said:

I am not trying to discount the escalation processes. They are absolutely essential. My earlier comment was written in response to sprout's assertion that the BOE already addresses HIB cases. My point was that not all complaints become HIB cases often due to inaction by school admin. Again, this varies from school to school. CHS is very good at addressing such issues.

I understand.

Considering that the previous HIB complaint was disregarded and consequently the timeline as explained in the escalation procedure has been exceeded, the parent has every right to escalate right now instead of starting over with the school.

Scully said:

sprout said:

I didn't say this thread should peter out, i said:

While I know emotions are running high (and @cleg, I admire your restraint), perhaps the pile-on of public shaming/reprimands can be reeled in a bit.

The problem seems to be that nothing was done for YEARS until the 'shaming' as you call it started.

If that's what it takes then why not?

Because:
1. It appears this message has been received.
2. I believe continued shaming/reprimanding is not the most efficient way to move forward from this point... and it is not nice.

I think we should move forward by modeling the organization, responsiveness, justice, civility, etc., that we want the school to model for our children.

Message received is not enough. Action taken and issue resolved should be the end note of this thread.

I have not said I wanted the thread to end.
I am suggesting making it more productive, and less pile-on.

People are allowed to express their outrage as they see fit. Nobody has demanded resignations or really anything punitive at all. In fact the only person who has "paid" for anything as a result of this thread is the OP's kid.

I'm struggling to see where any reaction to this situation is outsized relative to the problem.

My daughter is to attend this school next year and I am infuriated. How about forming a group and addressing directly to the administration. This is totally unacceptable and if this happens to my child I will definitely be getting a lawyer. I cant believe this. I have heard so many complaints about this school.

One thing to consider is that improving the way men treat women in this country is a marathon run which won't end in our lifetimes. It will take a lot of people with the courage displayed by Cleg and, even more so, his daughter. And it will take ongoing monitoring.

Jackson_Fusion said:

People are allowed to express their outrage as they see fit. Nobody has demanded resignations or really anything punitive at all. In fact the only person who has "paid" for anything as a result of this thread is the OP's kid.

I'm struggling to see where any reaction to this situation is outsized relative to the problem.

Outrage away.

But you want real responsive change? Then organize.

Organizing takes more effort than random outraging, but in my experience, the results are far better.

Teacher monitors at every corner should be mandatory. A young girl should never have to face abuse alone.

sprout said:

Jackson_Fusion said:

People are allowed to express their outrage as they see fit. Nobody has demanded resignations or really anything punitive at all. In fact the only person who has "paid" for anything as a result of this thread is the OP's kid.

I'm struggling to see where any reaction to this situation is outsized relative to the problem.

Outrage away.

But you want real responsive change? Then organize.

Organizing takes more effort than random outraging, but in my experience, the results are far better.

Well, ironically, that's what this thread is doing- people are sharing information and suggesting courses of action.

Doubt that? The young lady finally got some response, in less than 24 hours.

Pretty good results wouldn't you say?

You've made your views clear, several times, and here we are 3 pages later with no signs of people's concern waning.

Nobody is interested in a back and forth between you and I. If you have anything else to add I'm happy to talk in PM, but won't be responding to any posts that are covering the same ground.

Jackson_Fusion said:

People are allowed to express their outrage as they see fit. Nobody has demanded resignations or really anything punitive at all. In fact the only person who has "paid" for anything as a result of this thread is the OP's kid.

I'm struggling to see where any reaction to this situation is outsized relative to the problem.

Actually, I suggested that perhaps those responsible for maintaining discipline at MMS and keeping the young women in their care safe seem to have failed miserably , that there should be a serious investigation by the BOE and Superintendent and that yes, peoples jobs should be on the line.

This is not about punishment or about being vindictive, but about insuring that the children who attend MMS can do so in an environment where they are not threatened and their safety is adequately protected. It is about what seems to be a total failure by those in charge to do so. Every girl who was assaulted, every parent who was ignored was failed by those in charge.

Furthermore, As Jackson Fusion shared, every time the MMS administration neglected to report these multiple incidents to the authorities it was a failure to comply with the law.

My own daughter has long since passed through Middle School, but if I had a daughter who was in MMS or
or who was about to enter I would not be comfortable entrusting her safety to those who have clearly failed so miserably for at least the last 3 years.

Posting the article link here (since it didn't make a link after the quotes in my post below):
http://villagegreennj.com/schools-kids/maplewood-middle-school-discipline-plan-work-progress/#

Jackson_Fusion said:

Well, ironically, that's what this thread is doing- people are sharing information and suggesting courses of action.

Doubt that? The young lady finally got some response, in less than 24 hours.

Pretty good results wouldn't you say?

You've made your views clear, several times, and here we are 3 pages later with no signs of people's concern waning.

Nobody is interested in a back and forth between you and I. If you have anything else to add I'm happy to talk in PM, but won't be responding to any posts that are covering the same ground.

Yes, I agree this thread has been effective in many ways.

As you are aware, I suggested changing focus in one of the later pages. Perhaps that suggestion was helpful, perhaps not. To me, it appears that the pile-on has waned, and the focus has gone more on information, updates, organizing, and productive next steps.

ETA: Although I see sarahzm is still posting the same critique once again including

" if I had a daughter who was in MMS or or who was about to enter I would not be comfortable entrusting her safety to those who have clearly failed so miserably for at least the last 3 years."

... when perhaps what might be more helpful in determining my comfort level is to know that the Principal of MMS just started this September, has released his new policy, this February, and that the administration has responded to the OP of this thread.

So, instead of deciding if I would be comfortable sending my daughter to MMS based on the multiple posts of someone not even connected with the school, I will want to see how the dust settles on this fairly high-profile event, and the plans for going forward.

And yes, I am happy to stop boring everyone else with our back-and-forth.

Jackson Fusion:

Fat shaming is not "just obnoxious silliness." It is bullying, the same as any other bullying, and causes just as much pain and permanent psychological damage as shaming on the basis of race or sexual orientation or religion.

Our goals, as decent human beings, should be to eliminate all bullying, and all behaviors that cause pain to others, not condone some bullying because we think that "people should be ashamed, but aren't."

Shame on you.

sarahzm said:

My own daughter has long since passed through Middle School, but if I had a daughter who was in MMS or
or who was about to enter I would not be comfortable entrusting her safety to those who have clearly failed so miserably for at least the last 3 years.

You do understand that this is not something new this year? What is changing is that people are no longer willing to accept the way girls are being treated by some people.