More nonsense in the MMS hallways

Monster said:

@denniss, So what's despicable, the offer to help the girl's in learning a little self defensive? Sounds like you would be one of those boys doing the harrasing, now that is despicable.

No, the despicable is trying to capitalize on the situation for his business.

He was offering a class for free.

I want to commend @Cleg for his level-headed response to this situation. He is focusing on changing the behavior of the kids and getting the school to be responsive as opposed to being punitive. That is exactly the right response. If it were me, I would hire an attorney for a variety of reasons, but I wouldn't go to the police just yet.

A free lesson isn't exactly capitilzation. I've known bigriver for a long time and I would say it's more the fact that he's a caring soul, and knowing that he has daughters I can certainly see where his intentions are.

So what are your intentions @denniss, it seems to me as if your more like a petty little douchebaggins who thrives on bull*****. Of course I could be wrong and you're at a ll a douchebaggins.

Personally I have in the past, and still do to this day, instruct my daughter to put the mother effer down and don't let them up. Then worry about the authorities.

tjohn said:

I want to commend @Cleg for his level-headed response to this situation. He is focusing on changing the behavior of the kids and getting the school to be responsive as opposed to being punitive. That is exactly the right response. If it were me, I would hire an attorney for a variety of reasons, but I wouldn't go to the police just yet.

No, going to the police should be the first thing that should have been done in a situation such as this.

Let's assume for a minute that the school was being totally responsive (I know they weren't and that is part of the problem. But, let's pretend)? Why would you go to the police first?

Because besides being sexual harrasement it's assault, plain and simple, 'nuff said.

denniss said:

Monster said:

@denniss, So what's despicable, the offer to help the girl's in learning a little self defensive? Sounds like you would be one of those boys doing the harrasing, now that is despicable.

No, the despicable is trying to capitalize on the situation for his business.

It seems Mr denniss has a hard on for me don't know who he is, don't really care, I am simply offering something for free for the community, as I always do.

While horrible and indefensible the boys are still juveniles so involving the criminal justice system too quickly can be counterproductive on many levels. But that just makes the schools inaction that much worse. They are the key player who can deal with these types of things outside the criminal justice system in ways that can make a difference.

tjohn said:

I want to commend @Cleg for his level-headed response to this situation. He is focusing on changing the behavior of the kids and getting the school to be responsive as opposed to being punitive. That is exactly the right response. If it were me, I would hire an attorney for a variety of reasons, but I wouldn't go to the police just yet.

+1.

If the school was totally responsive, they would have obeyed the law and contacted the authorities. Touching a woman ( or attempting to do so) inappropriately against her will is a sexual assault.

I am not advocating reporting this to the police to "punish" the perpetrators and send them to jail or to get them into serious trouble that will ruin their lives. I am advocating this to protect the victims and to change the behavior which will get the offenders into very serious trouble down the road.

Once they turn 18 , if they do this they will be branded sexual offenders and that WILL follow them for the rest of their lives.

YES sarahzm ^^^^^

My daughter is a kid and makes many stupid decisions. These boys are kids and are making stupid decisions. If there was assault you can bet I would be at the school and calling police in a second. These boys need to learn to act right - I don't think the police can help with that. I most certainly think the schools can and should. As I said previously our old school had kids coming from far worse circumstances than anyone in Maplewood and they started in kindergarten teaching respect. Yes, parents should but don't always so it is one of the roles of the school to augment - not the criminal justice system.

The District should look at this from the elementary school level and go from there.

In response to Monster and Sarahzm:

Right and it starts with the school and getting the school to be responsive. Cleg is going about this in exactly the right way. We are overusing the police nowadays involving them in a lot of more things than used to be the case. There is abundant evidence that this is counter-productive and that engaging the police in situations that can and should be handled by other organizations is not helpful.

....... I deferred it to my wife who will go meet with the school. .......

A culture in which girls are harassed by boys. women are harassed (I will use the mild term) by men. It may be a positive thing not to defer this to your wife but to go with her.

What would the reaction be if your wife, or sister, or mother, or daughter were repeatedly followed at her workplace by a colleague who told her he wanted to get into her a** and tried to touch her inappropriately. And what would be the reaction if the only response by management and HR was to tell her to join a group of other victims who were meeting to deal with this.

Why is this absolutely not acceptable if it happens to adults, but it seems to be OK if it happens in the halls of our Middle School.

You might say , but these are only boys, they don't have adult judgment. That does not mean that this is not criminal behavior. This does not mean that young girls are being victimized. Of course it should be dealt with more leniently than if the offenders were adults. But this has been going on for years and it does not seem to be being dealt with at all.

The perpetrators may be middle school boys, but the victims are middle school girls who often don't have the tools to protect themselves that adults do.

I know that this is just a public message board, and we do not have all the facts, but based on the limited information here, it seems that the Maplewood Middle School administration has been criminally negligent and there should be consequences for their total failure to address this appropriately and legally as well.

cleg said:

My daughter is a kid and makes many stupid decisions. These boys are kids and are making stupid decisions. If there was assault you can bet I would be at the school and calling police in a second. These boys need to learn to act right - I don't think the police can help with that. I most certainly think the schools can and should. As I said previously our old school had kids coming from far worse circumstances than anyone in Maplewood and they started in kindergarten teaching respect. Yes, parents should but don't always so it is one of the roles of the school to augment - not the criminal justice system.

The District should look at this from the elementary school level and go from there.

I applaud your compassion and level headedness. My comments are not meant as criticism in any way. I admire the way you have handled this.

Touching a girl inappropriately against her will is assault. If that happened it is assault.

Hauling them before a judge, having to explain their actions in front of authorities and doing a few hours of community service would go a long way in teaching them to act right. By the way, the Maplewood police are wonderful. I feel confident they would handle this appropriately.

Monster said:

A free lesson isn't exactly capitilzation. I've known bigriver for a long time and I would say it's more the fact that he's a caring soul, and knowing that he has daughters I can certainly see where his intentions are.

So what are your intentions @denniss, it seems to me as if your more like a petty little douchebaggins who thrives on bull*****. Of course I could be wrong and you're at a ll a douchebaggins.

A free lesson accomplishes nothing, other than create the desire for more, PAID, lessons, PLUS making him look good in contrast to his most recent history. There was, IMHO, a purely commercial purpose behind his post. Sorry you have your knickers so twisted up.

sarahzm said:

What would the reaction be if your wife, or sister, or mother, or daughter were repeatedly followed at her workplace by a colleague who told her he wanted to get into her a** and tried to touch her inappropriately. And what would be the reaction if the only response by management and HR was to tell her to join a group of other victims who were meeting to deal with this.

Why is this absolutely not acceptable if it happens to adults, but it seems to be OK if it happens in the halls of our Middle School.

You might say , but these are only boys, they don't have adult judgment. That does not mean that this is not criminal behavior. This does not mean that young girls are being victimized. Of course it should be dealt with more leniently than if the offenders were adults. But this has been going on for years and it does not seem to be being dealt with at all.

The perpetrators may be middle school boys, but the victims are middle school girls who often don't have the tools to protect themselves that adults do.

I know that this is just a public message board, and we do not have all the facts, but based on the limited information here, it seems that the Maplewood Middle School administration has been criminally negligent and there should be consequences for their total failure to address this appropriately and legally as well.

And this, among other reasons, is why you hire an attorney - to help you extract the best way to deal with the problem from your anger.

It would be wonderful if the criminal justice system in America had nuanced approaches to issues. But it does not (the Sunday Time Magazine had interesting coverage on this a couple of weeks ago). Unfortunately juvenile involvement in the "system" far more often than not results in a downward spiral for those involved. And while certainly the actions can not be condoned and there needs to be consequences the goal should be to change behavior and turn the individuals into responsible adults. Or else there will be a chain of increasingly worse activities down the line.

sarahzm said:

Why is this absolutely not acceptable if it happens to adults, but it seems to be OK if it happens in the halls of our Middle School.

Sarah, for crying out loud, not a single person is suggestion it's OK if it happens in the halls of our Middle School.

There are different approaches that can be taken to tackle the problem. You may not agree with the approaches suggested by others, but that doesn't mean anyone suggesting an approach different than the one you suggest thinks this behavior is not a problem.

The new administration needs to make more effort to improve the school culture. My kid who previously loved school and still does well academically, hates MMS because of the behavior issues. This is not just around the building and in the hallways but in the classrooms as well. If the school administration is still following this thread, I hope they hear the message that this is a wider problem than cleg's incident (who handled it better than I would have. Kudos).

mjh said:

sarahzm said:

Why is this absolutely not acceptable if it happens to adults, but it seems to be OK if it happens in the halls of our Middle School.

Sarah, for crying out loud, not a single person is suggestion it's OK if it happens in the halls of our Middle School.

There are different approaches that can be taken to tackle the problem. You may not agree with the approaches suggested by others, but that doesn't mean anyone suggesting an approach different than the one you suggest thinks this behavior is not a problem.

Perhaps I should have been clearer and less strident. I did not mean to imply that it was ok with those posting here.

But the OP reported that her daughter had been harassed and inappropriately touched. Others here report that this behavior has existed for years. The OP said that "the teachers do nothing" and when she went to the administration their response was to tell her to join a parents group.

The MMS administration has known about this behavior has for years and they have tolerated it and allowed it to continue.

denniss said:

Monster said:

A free lesson isn't exactly capitilzation. I've known bigriver for a long time and I would say it's more the fact that he's a caring soul, and knowing that he has daughters I can certainly see where his intentions are.

So what are your intentions @denniss, it seems to me as if your more like a petty little douchebaggins who thrives on bull*****. Of course I could be wrong and you're at a ll a douchebaggins.

A free lesson accomplishes nothing, other than create the desire for more, PAID, lessons, PLUS making him look good in contrast to his most recent history. There was, IMHO, a purely commercial purpose behind his post. Sorry you have your knickers so twisted up.

We are prepared to do this for free on an ongoing basis, once a month no charge, not looking for enrollments, want to help these kids feel confident whether they use it or not. One of my instructors is an MMS parent and out of concern is reaching out to the principal regarding this very subject. On her own.

See it for what it is, a community service, that's how Maplewood Karate started.

Now you're starting to get it...I'll bow out for the time being.

Is the administration afraid to deal with this because of the suit against the district stating that a higher number of black children were suspended than white children? The district seems to be a bit hands off with theft too. I don't know the race of the children involved so this may not apply.

denniss said:

Now you're starting to get it...I'll bow out for the time being.

give it a rest please. I applaud @bigriver for offering free self defensive class for these kids.

I have 2 small girls and eventually they will atttend MMS, and reading this thread makes me sick to my stomach. Kids knowing self defensive can definitely help them in situations likes this.

I truly feel for the parents and kids who has to go threw this. And i really hope the school takes some serious action with this situation. Not cool.

@SGW. Thanks for the response. One hopes lesson learned.... I know some parents who would be mortified, and ensure with every fiber of their being that it was. I know of others and other situations where that may not exactly be the case.

denniss said:

Now you're starting to get it...I'll bow out for the time being.

Now?

He's been getting it for longer than you have.

cleg said:

The District should look at this from the elementary school level and go from there.

My kids have had repeated, consistent, ongoing, year-after-year, over-and-over-again instruction on HIB (Harassment, Intimidation, Bullying) in every year of every school they've attended in the SO/M school district. They have been drilled with lessons, examples, assemblies, discussions, etc. etc. etc.

There is NO way any kid in SO/M could NOT know this behavior was seriously against the HIB rules.

Any kid who STILL behaves in this way has 1) learned that there will be no serious consequences to their behavior and/or 2) is exhibiting disturbing red-flag behaviors.