Old Thread About Election Consequences
This is a good thread. We have so many contributors here with such extensive experience running national campaigns telling us that Hillary ran an awful one.
Only on MOL!
nan said:
Morganna said:We live in the richest country in the world. We should not be finding ways to give out college educations with LESS education. We have plenty of money were it not going to rich people and undeclared wars. Plenty of poorer countries provide this. Student debt has become a crisis that affects the entire economy. All Democrats should be for free college. It should be a no-brainer.
Two major issues motivate the Bernie fans, health care and free college tuition. (Yes I'm over simplifying.)
Health care, I know little about.
Education, I have a quirky idea hatched as a student and a teacher. While we figure out how to pay for tuitions in a way that people will support, why not do something really different and overhaul our education system so there is less time wasted. The goal would be to trim 2 years off of earning a BA and 2 years off an MA. It would have to start in high school. Get the student on their path earlier.
We already have college prep classes but let's be brave and cut a few of the traditional liberal arts requirements.
We've all heard the complaints from students about courses they hated. Why not listen to them?
How much would that save?
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americas-growing-student-loan-debt-crisis-2016-01-15
I'm suggesting a fix that could be funded. I'm also considering the time spent. MAs have become more important and as a result there are student's who are living home into their mid twenties. And I'm suggesting not less education but very targeted education. Quality as opposed to quantity. As an adult, I spent money on utterly useless classes because they were part of the filler to add up to the right amount of credits while I had to delay actually getting a teaching job.
I'm interested in hearing what you would suggest would be the best way to fund it.
drummerboy said:
This is a good thread. We have so many contributors here with such extensive experience running national campaigns telling us that Hillary ran an awful one.
Only on MOL!
On MOL everyone is an expert.
drummerboy said:
This is a good thread. We have so many contributors here with such extensive experience running national campaigns telling us that Hillary ran an awful one.
Only on MOL!
I didn't realize you were a psychologist; otherwise how would you be qualified to analyze anyone here?
You don't have to be an expert to know when something sucks.
Dennis_Seelbach said:
The argument I am making is that you guys refuse to let it go. You and nan keep harping on this, while the rest of us say let's move on...TOGETHER.
I am sure this would be a brilliant argument if it wasn't posted on a thread entitled "May I question "Don't Vote For Hillary" people now?"
Someone can't let it go and it isn't us. My point through out this thread is that it is perfectly fine to question the Stein voters AS LONG AS you cast a similarly critical eye at the centrist machine and the role it had in selecting a ham sandwich with rancid meat and moldy bread (whom I voted for because she had a "D" next to her name).
Klinker said:
Dennis_Seelbach said:I am sure this would be a brilliant argument if it wasn't posted on a thread entitled "May I question "Don't Vote For Hillary" people now?"
The argument I am making is that you guys refuse to let it go. You and nan keep harping on this, while the rest of us say let's move on...TOGETHER.
Someone can't let it go and it isn't us. My point through out this thread is that it is perfectly fine to question the Stein voters AS LONG AS you cast a similarly critical eye at the centrist machine and the role it had in selecting a ham sandwich with rancid meat and moldy bread (whom I voted for because she had a "D" next to her name).
And my point is that whichever side of the argument you are on, it is the argument itself that is doing the most damage. Get over your Bernie infatuation, just as we have moved on from hillary (except when being browbeaten by nan and her cohort), and work forward toward 2018 and 2020. If we don't, then we can't ever expect to win. Full stop.
ps: Since when did the thread title have anything to do with the debate??
Nan is actually showing you why you failed, do any of you feel you can browbeat each other into following like cattle?
Some of you need therapy....
nan said:
nohero said:Sounds like you think all people are either good or bad or right or wrong. Kind of severe, don't you think? Anyway, I'm not talking about people specifically, but about a corrupt system. The DNC signed a secret deal with Hillary to get the nomination, despite her being a horrible candidate with lots of baggage. They were only working for her and against her competitors. They also sought to prop up Donald Trump (Pied Piper strategy: https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/) because they thought he would be easier to beat. This was obviously a failed strategy and I'd think everyone would be all over them telling them to try something different next time. But, nope, you are all following the same cue and blaming it on voters and Russia. Enjoy your 8 years of Trump! You earned it!
nan said:I will note that the Hillary hatred carries a whiff of disdain for the voters who, you know, actually cast votes. Maybe they're the "wrong kind" of people.
nohero said:Cause she stole the primary and then lost to a repulsive orange reality TV star. I fail to understand why anybody disputes that.
Hillary Clinton was the nominee because she received the most votes in the primaries and caucuses.
I fail to understand why anybody disputes that.
Sounds like I hit a sore point about your view of Dem voters in the primaries.
Jaytee said:
Nan is actually showing you why you failed, do any of you feel you can browbeat each other into following like cattle?
Some of you need therapy....
Nan is offering her misguided opinions, some of which are probably right, but by accident. She has been a johnny-one-note since before the election, and refuses to accept what happened, and would rather dredge up the past than try to work on the future. I know why hillary failed, just like 90% of the intelligent folks in the country...1) Bad campaign (100% on her), 2) Russia, 3) Disappointed BB's who couldn't accept that Bernie got beat, and went and sulked in the corner instead of working to get HRC elected, 4) An orange menace who had (or some around him had) a pretty good clue as to what buttons to push. It's all part of it, but the most important thing is that it's over. Let's move on.
Dennis_Seelbach said:
Nan is offering her misguided opinions, some of which are probably right, but by accident.
Wow. Just wow....
nan said:
gerritn said:Is this the "Hide your head in the sand" strategy? Did not work in 2016 and will not work in 2020. But, who knows maybe insanity is not doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
No, who cares about the past, we need you all to:
Calling All Resistance Members! Roe V. Wade Is In DANGER! We Need YOU To Yell At JILL STEIN About The 2016 Election!
1) Vote for any Democrat in any election ever
2) Work to turn out the vote in any election ever
3) Donate to any Governor Democratic candidate in 2018 election
4) Donate to any Senate Democratic candidate in 2018 election
5) Donate to any House Democratic Candidate in 2018 election
So you think yelling at Jill Stein is a superior strategy over winning elections? Well in that case I suggest you become a Republican political consultant.
Just as an aside, this constant “rancid meat on moldy bread” comment is insulting. Insulting to a highly accomplished woman, whether you like her or not. She has been, and is, eminently more qualified than Trump on her worst day. If anyone on this thread can convince me otherwise go at it. If you Sarandoned her during the campaign, you have blood and tears on your hands. Unforgivable. And what’s worse, so many are gearing up to do it again.
drummerboy said:
This is a good thread. We have so many contributors here with such extensive experience running national campaigns telling us that Hillary ran an awful one.
Only on MOL!
She lost to an perverted orange-colored reality talk show host. Expertise not needed to call this one. If you want more details, read the book, "Shattered." Lots of details on how out of touch they were.
Morganna said:
nan said:I'm suggesting a fix that could be funded. I'm also considering the time spent. MAs have become more important and as a result there are student's who are living home into their mid twenties. And I'm suggesting not less education but very targeted education. Quality as opposed to quantity. As an adult, I spent money on utterly useless classes because they were part of the filler to add up to the right amount of credits while I had to delay actually getting a teaching job.
Morganna said:We live in the richest country in the world. We should not be finding ways to give out college educations with LESS education. We have plenty of money were it not going to rich people and undeclared wars. Plenty of poorer countries provide this. Student debt has become a crisis that affects the entire economy. All Democrats should be for free college. It should be a no-brainer.
Two major issues motivate the Bernie fans, health care and free college tuition. (Yes I'm over simplifying.)
Health care, I know little about.
Education, I have a quirky idea hatched as a student and a teacher. While we figure out how to pay for tuitions in a way that people will support, why not do something really different and overhaul our education system so there is less time wasted. The goal would be to trim 2 years off of earning a BA and 2 years off an MA. It would have to start in high school. Get the student on their path earlier.
We already have college prep classes but let's be brave and cut a few of the traditional liberal arts requirements.
We've all heard the complaints from students about courses they hated. Why not listen to them?
How much would that save?
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americas-growing-student-loan-debt-crisis-2016-01-15
I'm interested in hearing what you would suggest would be the best way to fund it.
My point was that education could be funded if we made that our priority. The problem is that we don't. You are suggesting less education--literally. You assume that the liberal arts classes lack quality or are not needed. That's a big assumption. I've already said how it could be funded--with tax money. That's what it is supposed to be used for--not give it away to the rich or waste it on undeclared wars or overthrowing governments and creating more refugees that we don't' want to take.
Dennis_Seelbach said:
Jaytee said:Nan is offering her misguided opinions, some of which are probably right, but by accident. She has been a johnny-one-note since before the election, and refuses to accept what happened, and would rather dredge up the past than try to work on the future. I know why hillary failed, just like 90% of the intelligent folks in the country...1) Bad campaign (100% on her), 2) Russia, 3) Disappointed BB's who couldn't accept that Bernie got beat, and went and sulked in the corner instead of working to get HRC elected, 4) An orange menace who had (or some around him had) a pretty good clue as to what buttons to push. It's all part of it, but the most important thing is that it's over. Let's move on.
Nan is actually showing you why you failed, do any of you feel you can browbeat each other into following like cattle?
Some of you need therapy....
No you do not know why Hillary failed. If I am such a one-note, than why can't you get it? Are you tone-deaf? Hillary lost because she was out of touch with a country where, despite vast riches, half the people are poor or close to disaster. This is why her campaign was bad. Since that election, things have not improved and thanks to Trump things are getting worse. If the Democrats want to win elections going forward, they need to stop pandering to donors and Wall Street and start representing the people again. They need to move to the left and start adopting progressive policies such as Medicare for All, free college, infrastructure improvement, a living wage. This is what people want. This is why a 28 year old was able to defeat the #4 Democrat with a tiny fraction of his funding. This is what people want. People are screaming for a system that represents them, not the oligarchy. And yes I say it over and over because so many of you are not getting it. You can not move on until you understand this. Just saying you are going to vote for Democrats, and putting your energy into voter shaming is just going to get you more and worse Trumps.
Don't be like this guy (Steve Schmidt):
nohero said:
nan said:Sounds like I hit a sore point about your view of Dem voters in the primaries.
nohero said:Sounds like you think all people are either good or bad or right or wrong. Kind of severe, don't you think? Anyway, I'm not talking about people specifically, but about a corrupt system. The DNC signed a secret deal with Hillary to get the nomination, despite her being a horrible candidate with lots of baggage. They were only working for her and against her competitors. They also sought to prop up Donald Trump (Pied Piper strategy: https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/) because they thought he would be easier to beat. This was obviously a failed strategy and I'd think everyone would be all over them telling them to try something different next time. But, nope, you are all following the same cue and blaming it on voters and Russia. Enjoy your 8 years of Trump! You earned it!
nan said:I will note that the Hillary hatred carries a whiff of disdain for the voters who, you know, actually cast votes. Maybe they're the "wrong kind" of people.
nohero said:Cause she stole the primary and then lost to a repulsive orange reality TV star. I fail to understand why anybody disputes that.
Hillary Clinton was the nominee because she received the most votes in the primaries and caucuses.
I fail to understand why anybody disputes that.
Nope. Thanks for playing.
Gee look at all the Progressives who won in the primaries the same day.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/26/us/elections/results-new-york-primary-elections.html
Not.
Go vote with the Green Party Nan. We will do this without you.
nan said:
No you do not know why Hillary failed. If I am such a one-note, than why can't you get it? Are you tone-deaf? Hillary lost because she was out of touch with a country where, despite vast riches, half the people are poor or close to disaster. This is why her campaign was bad. Since that election, things have not improved and thanks to Trump things are getting worse. If the Democrats want to win elections going forward, they need to stop pandering to donors and Wall Street and start representing the people again. They need to move to the left and start adopting progressive policies such as Medicare for All, free college, infrastructure improvement, a living wage. This is what people want. This is why a 28 year old was able to defeat the #4 Democrat with a tiny fraction of his funding. This is what people want. People are screaming for a system that represents them, not the oligarchy. And yes I say it over and over because so many of you are not getting it. You can not move on until you understand this. Just saying you are going to vote for Democrats, and putting your energy into voter shaming is just going to get you more and worse Trumps.
Speaking of "not getting it", when will you begin to comprehend that many of us were very disappointed in the way she ran her campaign, and the deficiencies of her candidacy. That, along with a number of other factors, some of which were NOT her fault, caused the loss. We do get it. We also get it that you are a hateful shrew who has only one goal in life...to savage an eminently qualified candidate, who lost do to her own, and others, faults.
I'll try, for the last time. It DOES NOT MATTER anymore. We all know what cost us this election, and some of us want to move on. We DO want a progressive program going forward, and now is the time to be talking about that, and what it means. It is long past time to be b!tching and bellyaching about your hatred of all things Hillary. We do get it...really.
So let's stop with the hysteria, and sit down to discuss where we should be heading without the snark and insult, if you can. If you can't, then I suggest you follow Sbenois' advice, and join the Green Party and leave us the he!! alone.
Klinker said:
Dennis_Seelbach said:Wow. Just wow....
Nan is offering her misguided opinions, some of which are probably right, but by accident.
Nice cherry-pick. And you know I'm right. You're welcome.
sbenois said:
Gee look at all the Progressives who won in the primaries the same day.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/26/us/elections/results-new-york-primary-elections.html
Not.
Go vote with the Green Party Nan. We will do this without you.
The Progressives will win or you will have more and worse Trumps. The Green Party has a terrific platform--one the Democrats should adopt. There would be no need for the Green Party if the Democrats did their job.
The Progressives will win?
THEY'RE NOT EVEN RUNNING. What is the name of the universe you are living in?
sbenois said:
The Progressives will win?
THEY'RE NOT EVEN RUNNING. What is the name of the universe you are living in?
They are running, but the DNC does what it can to sabotage their campaigns. It won't be overnight, but they are organizing and running. Some want to start another party, but many, such as Justice Democrats, and A New Revolution are running as Democrats. You have been asleep at the wheel.
Dennis_Seelbach said:
nan said:Speaking of "not getting it", when will you begin to comprehend that many of us were very disappointed in the way she ran her campaign, and the deficiencies of her candidacy. That, along with a number of other factors, some of which were NOT her fault, caused the loss. We do get it. We also get it that you are a hateful shrew who has only one goal in life...to savage an eminently qualified candidate, who lost do to her own, and others, faults.
No you do not know why Hillary failed. If I am such a one-note, than why can't you get it? Are you tone-deaf? Hillary lost because she was out of touch with a country where, despite vast riches, half the people are poor or close to disaster. This is why her campaign was bad. Since that election, things have not improved and thanks to Trump things are getting worse. If the Democrats want to win elections going forward, they need to stop pandering to donors and Wall Street and start representing the people again. They need to move to the left and start adopting progressive policies such as Medicare for All, free college, infrastructure improvement, a living wage. This is what people want. This is why a 28 year old was able to defeat the #4 Democrat with a tiny fraction of his funding. This is what people want. People are screaming for a system that represents them, not the oligarchy. And yes I say it over and over because so many of you are not getting it. You can not move on until you understand this. Just saying you are going to vote for Democrats, and putting your energy into voter shaming is just going to get you more and worse Trumps.
I'll try, for the last time. It DOES NOT MATTER anymore. We all know what cost us this election, and some of us want to move on. We DO want a progressive program going forward, and now is the time to be talking about that, and what it means. It is long past time to be b!tching and bellyaching about your hatred of all things Hillary. We do get it...really.
So let's stop with the hysteria, and sit down to discuss where we should be heading without the snark and insult, if you can. If you can't, then I suggest you follow Sbenois' advice, and join the Green Party and leave us the he!! alone.
I reported your post for personal attacks. You need to calm down.
nan said:
sbenois said:They are running, but the DNC does what it can to sabotage their campaigns. It won't be overnight, but they are organizing and running. Some want to start another party, but many, such as Justice Democrats, and A New Revolution are running as Democrats. You have been asleep at the wheel
The Progressives will win?
THEY'RE NOT EVEN RUNNING. What is the name of the universe you are living in?
Are you dealing with reality at all? You post videos of snarky people who sneer at centrists as not having a clue and how progressives are the only answer and you point to the Bronx as evidence of change and it's laughable. Eliot Engel won yet again by an enormous margin. Is he a progressive?
So while you wait for "overnight" to come, please do vote Green Party. Or the Detached From Reality Party or whatever party you think is going to eliminate all of those things you currently hate about the Democrats.
And while you do that, people who are practical about these things can and should get out and vote for those "awful" Democrats (in your eyes) who may, God Forbid, support centrist policies.
Jaytee said:
Nan is actually showing you why you failed, do any of you feel you can browbeat each other into following like cattle?
Some of you need therapy....
Nan says words that are half the time completely unmoored from reality. (all that stuff about DNC conspiracies and no proof of Russian involvement)
She worries me, actually.
Red_Barchetta said:
drummerboy said:I didn't realize you were a psychologist; otherwise how would you be qualified to analyze anyone here?
This is a good thread. We have so many contributors here with such extensive experience running national campaigns telling us that Hillary ran an awful one.
Only on MOL!
You don't have to be an expert to know when something sucks.
I don't follow the first sentence.
As for being an expert - you at least need to provide examples of why it sucked. And alternatives. I see none of that.
annielou said:
Just as an aside, this constant “rancid meat on moldy bread” comment is insulting. Insulting to a highly accomplished woman, whether you like her or not.
Jean Kirkpatrick was a highly accomplished woman too but she also would have made a lousy nominee for the Democratic Party.
annielou said:
She has been, and is, eminently more qualified than Trump on her worst day.
The mushrooms on my pizza are eminently more qualified than Trump but I would be pretty upset if the centrist machine made them the Democratic nominee.
annielou said:
If you Sarandoned her during the campaign, you have blood and tears on your hands. Unforgivable.
And that's the point. I didn't vote for Stein because I am the sort of guy who will vote for a ham sandwich if its got a "D" next to its name. I'm just pi$$ed that you all made me choke down such a lousy, conservative, anti progressive ham sandwich, what with its rancid meat and moldy bread.
sbenois said:
nan said:Are you dealing with reality at all? You post videos of snarky people who sneer at centrists as not having a clue and how progressives are the only answer and you point to the Bronx as evidence of change and it's laughable. Eliot Engel won yet again by an enormous margin. Is he a progressive?
sbenois said:They are running, but the DNC does what it can to sabotage their campaigns. It won't be overnight, but they are organizing and running. Some want to start another party, but many, such as Justice Democrats, and A New Revolution are running as Democrats. You have been asleep at the wheel
The Progressives will win?
THEY'RE NOT EVEN RUNNING. What is the name of the universe you are living in?
So while you wait for "overnight" to come, please do vote Green Party. Or the Detached From Reality Party or whatever party you think is going to eliminate all of those things you currently hate about the Democrats.
And while you do that, people who are practical about these things can and should get out and vote for those "awful" Democrats (in your eyes) who may, God Forbid, support centrist policies.
I knew Trump was going to win and warned you. I knew about Ocasio-Cortez when she started running. I pay attention. I'm sure you are fine with the right-wing Democrats. They are not going to rock your boat, even with the eight years of Trump. You can vote for whomever you want and I will do the same.
What sayeth the Wicked Son?