Maplewood Fourth of July Circus - Please consider NOT supporting

carrielogo said:

" After the circus industry's glitter and glamour has settled, the animals remain involuntary participants in a degrading spectacle, performing not because they want to, but because they are forced to."

"circus industry's glitter and glamour"

I don't know who you are quoting, but that is just funny. As with every other debate, over-the-top rhetoric is being used to argue an otherwise valid position.

Tom_R said:
Is the treatment of these animals subject to no oversight; be it State, County or local?
TomR

im sure it is but i cant imagine it being in depth oversight . also the mental stress on an animal cannot be regulated. they just check for living conditions and scars.

You left out blind Internet references to unrelated circuses and a lack of substantial factual data for one one the fence about it (like myself) to review.

Anyhoo, thanks Joan...wasn't sure if you knew or did not, but that sounds right. I'd be curious as to whether the loss of the circus revenue would negatively impact other areas of the celebration, but not to the level of pursuing further. Would expect that the well-meaning volunteers at the MCA would take everything into consideration before changing anything, including the financials and all sound opposition.

so you are saying there is a such thing as a "humane circus"?

I can post the links to various animal rights groups writing about circus animals....but it is very sad and often graphic. The factual proof, as several people have stated, is attending the circus and observing the animals themselves. It is just sad to sit in that boiling tent and think of the animals performing three times that day and then being tied up near where the fireworks are launched. Major downer to an otherwise great family day.

Slavery? Really? I'm all for the humane treatment of animals, but to say that an animal is similar to the immense suffering that millions of human beings were forced into, and an institution that continues to this day, is just insulting to the victims of slavery.

You'll get a lot more support if you tone down the rhetoric a bit.

I took my son a few years ago and I agree, the circus made me very uncomfortable. I couldn't put my figure on why, exactly, it just felt... gross.

It's a bit of a thread drift but does anyone know about Big Apple Circus? I know Ringling has gotten a lot of heat over the years about the elephants (no need to go into that here) but I wasn't sure if Big Apple fell into that category as well. They have dogs and horses as part of their acts. Are there any circuses that treat animals humanely? Or is that just impossible to reconcile?

spontaneous said:
Slavery? Really? I'm all for the humane treatment of animals, but to say that an animal is similar to the immense suffering that millions of human beings were forced into, and an institution that continues to this day, is just insulting to the victims of slavery.


You'll get a lot more support if you tone down the rhetoric a bit.

last time i checked, a human is an animal just like an elephant or camel. whats the difference?

arturosfan said:

Tom_R said:
Is the treatment of these animals subject to no oversight; be it State, County or local?
TomR

im sure it is but i cant imagine it being in depth oversight . also the mental stress on an animal cannot be regulated. they just check for living conditions and scars.

arturosfan said:

spontaneous said:
Slavery? Really? I'm all for the humane treatment of animals, but to say that an animal is similar to the immense suffering that millions of human beings were forced into, and an institution that continues to this day, is just insulting to the victims of slavery.


You'll get a lot more support if you tone down the rhetoric a bit.

last time i checked, a human is an animal just like an elephant or camel. whats the difference?

What do you believe is appropriate with regard to professional boxing?

The NFL?

NCAA football?

TomR

arturosfan said:

spontaneous said:
Slavery? Really? I'm all for the humane treatment of animals, but to say that an animal is similar to the immense suffering that millions of human beings were forced into, and an institution that continues to this day, is just insulting to the victims of slavery.


You'll get a lot more support if you tone down the rhetoric a bit.

last time i checked, a human is an animal just like an elephant or camel. whats the difference?

If you can't tell the difference between a dog and a person being dehumanized and held in bondage and bred like livestock and having their children forcibly torn away from them to be sold, then I don't know what to say. And if you also can't figure out why it is offensive, then I also don't know what to say.

I am for the humane treatment of animals, but I won't stoop down to belittling major events of human suffering to promote the cause.

Not to mention that human animals have a choice in working for the NFL etc.

spontaneous said:

arturosfan said:

spontaneous said:
Slavery? Really? I'm all for the humane treatment of animals, but to say that an animal is similar to the immense suffering that millions of human beings were forced into, and an institution that continues to this day, is just insulting to the victims of slavery.


You'll get a lot more support if you tone down the rhetoric a bit.

last time i checked, a human is an animal just like an elephant or camel. whats the difference?

If you can't tell the difference between a dog and a person being dehumanized and held in bondage and bred like livestock and having their children forcibly torn away from them to be sold, then I don't know what to say. And if you also can't figure out why it is offensive, then I also don't know what to say.
I am for the humane treatment of animals, but I won't stoop down to belittling major events of human suffering to promote the cause.

you dont think cows care for their young? you dont thin they grieve when their babies are torn away

http://humanefacts.org/dairy/

i dont think it is offensive at all. we are all ancestors of slaves. slavery been around since the beginning of time, and it continues to this day. most of the clothing you wear was probably made with child labor.

http://ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=226

your main problem is that you are comparing a dog to (and i quote) " a person being dehumanized and held in bondage and bred like livestock " .. you are equating slavery to livestock, as am i. but you dont see animals as equals to humans which is why you used that terminology. but thats how the majority of people feel in this world ... im used to it.

TarheelsInNj said:
I took my son a few years ago and I agree, the circus made me very uncomfortable. I couldn't put my figure on why, exactly, it just felt... gross.
It's a bit of a thread drift but does anyone know about Big Apple Circus? I know Ringling has gotten a lot of heat over the years about the elephants (no need to go into that here) but I wasn't sure if Big Apple fell into that category as well. They have dogs and horses as part of their acts. Are there any circuses that treat animals humanely? Or is that just impossible to reconcile?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/07/how-the-circus-got-a-social-conscience.html

arturosfan said:

spontaneous said:
Slavery? Really? I'm all for the humane treatment of animals, but to say that an animal is similar to the immense suffering that millions of human beings were forced into, and an institution that continues to this day, is just insulting to the victims of slavery.


You'll get a lot more support if you tone down the rhetoric a bit.

last time i checked, a human is an animal just like an elephant or camel. whats the difference?

I'm simply shocked that anyone over the age of three can even think of asking that question with a straight face.

carrielogo said:
I can post the links to various animal rights groups writing about circus animals....but it is very sad and often graphic. The factual proof, as several people have stated, is attending the circus and observing the animals themselves. It is just sad to sit in that boiling tent and think of the animals performing three times that day and then being tied up near where the fireworks are launched. Major downer to an otherwise great family day.

I'm interested in THIS circus, not circuses in general. The few times I'd gone when my kids were younger, the animals seemed completely nonplussed.

spontaneous said:
Slavery? Really? I'm all for the humane treatment of animals, but to say that an animal is similar to the immense suffering that millions of human beings were forced into, and an institution that continues to this day, is just insulting to the victims of slavery.


You'll get a lot more support if you tone down the rhetoric a bit.

+1

arturosfan said:

spontaneous said:

arturosfan said:

spontaneous said:
Slavery? Really? I'm all for the humane treatment of animals, but to say that an animal is similar to the immense suffering that millions of human beings were forced into, and an institution that continues to this day, is just insulting to the victims of slavery.


You'll get a lot more support if you tone down the rhetoric a bit.

last time i checked, a human is an animal just like an elephant or camel. whats the difference?

If you can't tell the difference between a dog and a person being dehumanized and held in bondage and bred like livestock and having their children forcibly torn away from them to be sold, then I don't know what to say. And if you also can't figure out why it is offensive, then I also don't know what to say.
I am for the humane treatment of animals, but I won't stoop down to belittling major events of human suffering to promote the cause.

you dont think cows care for their young? you dont thin they grieve when their babies are torn away
http://humanefacts.org/dairy/



i dont think it is offensive at all. we are all ancestors of slaves. slavery been around since the beginning of time, and it continues to this day. most of the clothing you wear was probably made with child labor.
http://ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=226



your main problem is that you are comparing a dog to (and i quote) " a person being dehumanized and held in bondage and bred like livestock " .. you are equating slavery to livestock, as am i. but you dont see animals as equals to humans which is why you used that terminology. but thats how the majority of people feel in this world ... im used to it.

I don't know anyone that equates animals and humans.

Question to those opposed to circuses employing non-human animals:

Are you also opposed to any or all of the following?

Horse racing

Dude ranches

Dog shows

Service animals

Raising chickens in the back yard

Eating meat or animal produced products such as eggs and dairy products

If not, I would like to know where you draw the line in defining animal cruelty that should be eliminated.

I disagree with a poster who stated the circus is out of line with Maplewood. It has existed for the 40+ years I have been connected with Maplewood. It is actually a Maplewood tradition!

Am I devilish? I like the circus & so do my children. I liked it as a kid as well. In reality I think the animals have it better than the people performers who after they are done performing are cleaning up, feeding the animals, selling stuff, etc. They never rest. And do the humans really have a choice if this is the only life they know & have skills that are marketable mainly through performance? Also, those cute dogs they have probably would have been killed or may have suffered in another less ideal life if not adopted by the circus.

It really is unfortunate though that the 4th of July is always stifling hot. It does make it uncomfortable for humans and other animals.

The fireworks themselves cause dissociative disorder in flighted fowl and several species of beetles. Not sure why we need such a barbaric form of celebration

Two VERY EXCELLENT points were made by two very astute (and non-anonymous) posters. In order of appearance:

ctrzaska said:

carrielogo said:
I can post the links to various animal rights groups writing about circus animals....but it is very sad and often graphic. The factual proof, as several people have stated, is attending the circus and observing the animals themselves. It is just sad to sit in that boiling tent and think of the animals performing three times that day and then being tied up near where the fireworks are launched. Major downer to an otherwise great family day.

I'm interested in THIS circus, not circuses in general. The few times I'd gone when my kids were younger, the animals seemed completely nonplussed.

And this one from Joan:

joan_crystal said:
Question to those opposed to circuses employing non-human animals:
Are you also opposed to any or all of the following?
Horse racing
Dude ranches
Dog shows
Service animals
Raising chickens in the back yard
Eating meat or animal produced products such as eggs and dairy products
If not, I would like to know where you draw the line in defining animal cruelty that should be eliminated.

Kudos also to the reasoned and thoughtful response by a July 4th Committee member conveyed to Joan for posting to this board:

"After reading this thread, I contacted a member of the 4th of July Committee who sent the following reply and authorized me to post it this person's behalf. To the best of my knowledge, none of the current 4th of July Committee members is active on MOL."

"' I don't disparage the kindly intentions of those opposed to animal acts. Although we can't change this year, people are free to vote with their pocketbooks and shun the circus. The circus is paid a lump sum and will not suffer a loss but low attendance will register the sentiment and that could shape plans for the future. My research tells me that the worst offenses cited actually belong to a different circus also named Zerbini (it's a big and old family). And given that the dogs (mostly rescues), camels and ponies (NO elephants) spend a good part of the year living in Florida, we shouldn't anthropomorphize their getting too hot. Nevertheless, we will have to find ways to gauge public opinion (beyond the handful on MOL) and fairly reflect community sentiment about needs change and what to encourage. A step might be to write to the July 4 Committee, MCA, PO Box 3, Maplewood.'"

Wendy Lauter

Past Committee member on July 4 Committee and current volunteer

joan_crystal said:
Question to those opposed to circuses employing non-human animals:
Are you also opposed to any or all of the following?
Horse racing
Dude ranches
Dog shows
Service animals
Raising chickens in the back yard
Eating meat or animal produced products such as eggs and dairy products
If not, I would like to know where you draw the line in defining animal cruelty that should be eliminated.

yes on all of these . im vegan as well. human beings are destroying this planet. we are feeding our children meat filled with antibiotics and hormones. the industrial meat industry is making is depressed and fat and is killing the planet.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/06/30/how-much-your-meat-addiction-is-hurting-the-planet/

i dont care what you feed yourself, im worried about those that have no choice. we dont need to make animals suffer for our entertainment. its selfish.

yet i am also a realist, and i know im not going to change anyones mind. im not trying to convert anyone. i can sleep well at night and thats all that matters.

"' I don't disparage the kindly intentions of those opposed to animal acts. Although we can't change this year, people are free to vote with their pocketbooks and shun the circus." Wendy Lauter.

Agreed. Will do. While we're at it, I will vote with my pocketbook and boycott the paid fireworks section as well. It's embarrassing that on the fourth of July, Maplewood, a town that strives for integration, celebrates in de facto segregated galleries to watch the fireworks, because it costs (this year) $40 for a family of 4 to sit in the paid section. For what? Greener grass?

The 4th of July committee should take example from the Pride festival, and MapleWoodstock, who are both large, free events, where everyone can mix freely.

friendorfoe said:
I disagree with a poster who stated the circus is out of line with Maplewood. It has existed for the 40+ years I have been connected with Maplewood. It is actually a Maplewood tradition!
Am I devilish? I like the circus & so do my children. I liked it as a kid as well. In reality I think the animals have it better than the people performers who after they are done performing are cleaning up, feeding the animals, selling stuff, etc. They never rest. And do the humans really have a choice if this is the only life they know & have skills that are marketable mainly through performance? Also, those cute dogs they have probably would have been killed or may have suffered in another less ideal life if not adopted by the circus.
It really is unfortunate though that the 4th of July is always stifling hot. It does make it uncomfortable for humans and other animals.

you seem to be trying to convince yourself that a circus is a ok. your arguments dont really make any sense. you cannot compare the choice of a human to a choice of an animal. an animal cannot get in a car and drive away. a human is not chained to a fence in 90 degree heat, rain or shine.

i am sure you would not be happy if someone chained you to a fence and forced you to have people ride your back all day as you walk in a circle. seems like an awful life to me.

http://www.aspca.org/fight-cruelty/circus-cruelty

-

Life under the big top is not the "wholesome, fun-loving, educational experience" the circus industry would like you to think it is. For the animals, life is a monotonous and brutal routine of boredom, stress and pain. In short, traveling animal acts perpetuate animal cruelty, inhumane care, public safety hazards and distorted images of wildlife.

Circus animals are confined virtually all of their lives in barren conditions, while forced to suffer extreme physical and psychological deprivation:

• Virtually 96 percent of their lives are spent in chains or cages.
• 11 months a year they travel over long distances in box cars with no climate control; sleeping, eating, and defecating in the same cage.
• When allowed out, these animals are trained using extreme "discipline" such as whipping, hitting, poking, and shocking with electrical prods.
• Even though the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) sets minimum standards of care, most itinerary stops are not inspected.

Wild animal acts also pose a significant threat to public health and safety:

• Circus elephants may carry tuberculosis (TB), and can infect humans with the bacterial disease. Public records show that many circuses have used TB-positive elephants in public performances.
• Circuses are not required by law to carry emergency euthanasia equipment and local law enforcement agencies may be forced to deal with a loose animal.
• Since the 1990s circuses have been responsible for over 100 human injuries worldwide.

The circus and animal rides was a highlight of the day for my daughter when she was younger.

lord_pabulum said:
The circus and animal rides was a highlight of the day for my daughter when she was younger.

There was a time when a circus may have represented the only exposure a child had to a wild animal. Today our children learn early in school, and through such programs as on Animal Planet and The Discovery Channel, that wild animals live complex and fascinating lives, and have natural instincts, developed over thousands of years. When kids see the negative messages circuses send, it completely contradicts these lessons.

The circus industry claims that it only trains animals to do the types of tricks they might naturally perform in the wild. In reality, animals live their lives looking for food, sleeping, or raising their babies. Costumed bears lying on their backs spinning giant balls, tigers jumping through flames, or elephants walking on their hind legs then balancing on their heads, are not natural behaviors.

When circuses portray unnatural and inaccurate images of how wild animals live and act, in such an unrealistic context, this creates a greater disconnect between people and wild animals, promoting the notion that it's acceptable, even enjoyable to exploit animals for entertainment. Circuses perpetuate an outdated attitude that wild animals are ours to use at any cost to their welfare-an attitude that PAWS, other animal protection groups, wildlife organizations and zoos work tirelessly to counteract through outreach and education.

I believe (non-human) animals have thoughts, feelings, and experience pain....and heat! Anyone who is a pet owner can tell you that! I am vegetarian trying to become vegan. I made the mistake of following PETA on FB......there's animal cruelty in existence that I didn't even realize - hermit crabs actually shouldn't be pets! Interesting reasons why and not graphic: http://www.peta.org/living/companion-animals/7-reasons-never-buy-hermit-crab/

As I have said, rides or a non-animal circus would be an awesome alternative to the current circus.

Not to high jack the thread I started, but to follow up on what rastaquere said.... My kids always notice and ask why all the white people are inside the fence and all the black people are outside the fence. I agree that this other "tradition" also needs to be a addressed.

.

carrielogo said:
I believe (non-human) animals have thoughts, feelings, and experience pain....and heat! Anyone who is a pet owner can tell you that! I am vegetarian trying to become vegan. I made the mistake of following PETA on FB......there's animal cruelty in existence that I didn't even realize

Yeah, I wasn't aware of PETA's animal cruelty either until recently. Their 99% euthanasia rate alone makes me sick, with many animals being killed within hours of coming into their possession.

I feel bad for the animals at the Turtle Back Zoo so nevermind the circuit. We will definitely not attend the circus. We never have thus far, so might as well not start now. I still remember watching the poor camel last year doing this repetitive motion while we walked to the fireworks. You could tell that it was almost a stress releaser and something often done by animals who have been caged most of their lives. Was very sad to watch.