Light a candle for Elsbeth, 5 month old kitten killed by South Orange.

Ace, I for one blame the town for not employing a competent animal control officer and for not having a shelter. Surely, in a community with the wealth and income in South Orange, such things could be afforded. As far as hoarding is concerned, it seems clear that this aspect of the situation was allowed to fester for far too long.

ace11 said:
Thanks for the English lesson, but euthanize is more appropriate as killing them sounds as if the vet tied them in a bag and through them in a river. There is a diffrence.

Thanks for the attempt at a morality/philosophy lesson.

You seem more aware of posturing in others than in yourself, QED a common local affliction, but vive la "diffrence."

Actually, for all anyone knows, he did tie them in a bag and (sic) throw them in a river.

mff said:

ace11 said:
Thanks for the English lesson, but euthanize is more appropriate as killing them sounds as if the vet tied them in a bag and through them in a river. There is a diffrence.

Thanks for the attempt at a morality/philosophy lesson.
You seem more aware of posturing in others than in yourself, QED a common local affliction, but vive la "diffrence."

Your welcome, and thanks

Morgana: Do you have proof that the kitten was euthanized? Is it possible that the Vet told the Health Officer that the kitten was dead to collect the euthanasia fee but actually found a home for the kitten instead? I am not trying to suggest any wrong doing on the part of the Veterinarian, the ACO, or the town; just trying to make sense of a very strange set of events.

joan_crystal said:
Morgana: Do you have proof that the kitten was euthanized? Is it possible that the Vet told the Health Officer that the kitten was dead to collect the euthanasia fee but actually found a home for the kitten instead? I am not trying to suggest any wrong doing on the part of the Veterinarian, the ACO, or the town; just trying to make sense of a very strange set of events.

Problem is Joan, that all 4 of them are gone. Even taken down from Petfinder. Only a person with their code can pull up the ones removed. When a cat dies or there is a problem, on Petfinder we post as Not Available. I asked an employee to look under Not Available and she found them. I have gone to the clinics rescue FB page All Paws Welcome and posted asking for them and asked if they were euthanized. Another poster was stunned and I repeated my request. No surprise they took it down. Now another poster is asking on the FB page for pics of the cats.

One male was a gorgeous tux about 1. A girl that works there named Morgan, easy to remember, said he was amazing. I was petting him the day I went with bigben. Elsbeth looked adorable and their was a buff male and the 4th was I believe grey and white. I said I would pick up Elsbeth and the tux next. There was no mistake in the communication.

I know I'll get trounced for saying this but there is a very bad complaint and case against him under Consumer Affairs and he was fined.

Someone suggested he took them to East Orange which he manages according to his staff. That's the place I referred to when I used the phrase, "a killing field."

Sorry if I came off as a bit crass, was only asking questions to try and get you some answers. I know your passionate about this. Ive rounded up and kept my fair share of stray cats too. I still dont think that south oranged had any bad intentions for the kittens. It just dosent make sense. Like I said could have been a screw up at the vet, I can easily see paperwork getting mislabeled if we drop all our animals off there. Is there a typical hold time when a stray is brought in? If there is, and then the animals were still euthanized before that time period I would say the vet screwed up.

There is no hold time for owner surrenders---which apparently the ACO represented that she was. I've kept quiet about this, but, if surrender papers were signed, that became the cats' death warrant. I would expect an ACO to be aware of that.

I'm so very sorry this happened. Some of us in Maplewood continue to complain to our officials about the arrangement the town has with AHS. From what you describe, it is possible that the arrangement South Orange has entered into is in some respects a whole lot worse. Hoping this proves to be an isolated incident and that both our towns can move ahead with a mutually advantageous solution to our animal control problem.

ace11 said:
Sorry if I came off as a bit crass, was only asking questions to try and get you some answers. I know your passionate about this. Ive rounded up and kept my fair share of stray cats too. I still dont think that south oranged had any bad intentions for the kittens. It just dosent make sense. Like I said could have been a screw up at the vet, I can easily see paperwork getting mislabeled if we drop all our animals off there. Is there a typical hold time when a stray is brought in? If there is, and then the animals were still euthanized before that time period I would say the vet screwed up.

Ace11--sorry, but you just don't get it. The intentions are not the issue here. Morganna was very clear to the vet that she was coming back for the others--yet the vet killed them without so much as a phone call.

It doesn't matter to Elsbeth or the 3 others whether or not South Orange had any bad intentions for them. And it doesn't matter to me whether or not South Orange had any bad intentions. Dead is dead.

"Oops, sorry!" in this situation doesn't cut it with me.

There are conscientious, empathetic people who try to follow rational rules.

And then there are the others.

This is part of the stuff I dont understand, they were given to the shelter and the moragnna talked to the shelter and already picked up one cat for adoption. As for calliopes post , you dont know if papers were signed or not, so lets not assume. They held them ,at least , long enough for the one kitten to be picked up. Thats whats not making sense. It dosent seem the ACO signed papers or whatever happened would have happened earlier.

hard time on android , so sorry if some stuff is too forward or disjoint2d

citizenjane said:

ace11 said:
Sorry if I came off as a bit crass, was only asking questions to try and get you some answers. I know your passionate about this. Ive rounded up and kept my fair share of stray cats too. I still dont think that south oranged had any bad intentions for the kittens. It just dosent make sense. Like I said could have been a screw up at the vet, I can easily see paperwork getting mislabeled if we drop all our animals off there. Is there a typical hold time when a stray is brought in? If there is, and then the animals were still euthanized before that time period I would say the vet screwed up.

Ace11--sorry, but you just don't get it. The intentions are not the issue here. Morganna was very clear to the vet that she was coming back for the others--yet the vet killed them without so much as a phone call.
It doesn't matter to Elsbeth or the 3 others whether or not South Orange had any bad intentions for them. And it doesn't matter to me whether or not South Orange had any bad intentions. Dead is dead.
"Oops, sorry!" in this situation doesn't cut it with me.

So, your saying it was the shelter and not south orange. Thanks for backing me up!

mff said:
There are conscientious, empathetic people who try to follow rational rules.
And then there are the others.

Really, and witch are you?

I'm the which (or ol' wizard) with 4 rescues in my garage, 3 in my house, right now.

Also, I eat idiots for breakfast.

OK, good for you, ive got three cats that were rescued by me, pooped and feed since birth when there mother was killed. Found on the side of the road as was there mother. There now 6 years old. So what. I'm glad you can help out with the cats, its hard I know! Are looking for a pat on the back? I dont get it? You really , besides taking in the cats, added nothing of worth to this conversation.

It's said that a picture is worth a thousand (even comprehensible) words--

Ace 11, I have placed the responsibility and accountability with South Orange as 4 cats out of about 50 were placed in their care. It was their employee who transferred them to a vet of their choice and they were euthanized by that vet. Our rescue entrusted only four of our animals to South Orange and they are dead. Now it is time to find a new solution.

Morganna said:
Ace 11, I have placed the responsibility and accountability with South Orange as 4 cats out of about 50 were placed in their care. It was their employee who transferred them to a vet of their choice and they were euthanized by that vet. Our rescue entrusted only four of our animals to South Orange and they are dead. Now it is time to find a new solution.

Agreed , a solutions a good idea. Unfortunately bureaucracy takes time, sad but true. The shelter we had , had problems. It , as far as I lived here, 40 + years was our first. While we may not agree upon the no kill shelter, a shelter to prolong life is good. Give the animals every fare shake they can get. I still dont see how the town is responsible, but we can have differences with similar goals. I do feel your pain, you might not believe it or see it but I do feel your pain otherwise I wouldn't be posting or reading this thread .

Mff, cute picture. I wish I knew how to post mine, you wouldn't believe it!

Morganna said:
Ace 11, I have placed the responsibility and accountability with South Orange as 4 cats out of about 50 were placed in their care. It was their employee who transferred them to a vet of their choice and they were euthanized by that vet. Our rescue entrusted only four of our animals to South Orange and they are dead. Now it is time to find a new solution.

Such incompetence is not excusable.

The propensity among empowered agencies in this country to shoot first, no matter at what or whom, then dodge questions later, must be halted.

Prosecutions, firings, boycotts, whatever it takes, must follow.

So, my suggestion Ace 11 is let us all go to Town Hall next week and say its time for a shelter. We have an inspired core of volunteers and our love for animals is apparent in the shared accounting of the critters we live with.

My heart is with my rescue and I'll go to the mat for any animal. Those who know me are aware that I have quietly lobbied my representatives to have another shelter. No noise, no showboating. BUT We stopped sending animals to the JAC last February, we chose Newark for 11 months. Cory Booker called it the filthiest slaughterhouse on the planet. Now we have a vet who has been fined by the Dept. of Consumer Affairs and who has killed cats in 2 rescues that I was involved in.

We have not had a shelter for about 16 months.

You accept that the wheels of town politics turn slowly, but many animals have died between the spokes.

Calliope, I know nothing about how this works or is supposed to, thats why the million questions. I do trust your judgement. Morganna, I will pass along my support for the shelter to the powers that be.

Morganna, what bothers me about this thread is that, while it shows a clear need for process improvements, you and some others seem to be using it for the political goal of trying to get everyone to lobby for another shelter, now. I have yet to be convinced that the critical mass of steady, ongoing need actually merits a town/village-supported shelter to protect the interests of the resident pet-owners of MSO.

In a period when all responsible pet owners should be tagging their pets for easy return, an additional shelter seems to be a solution for dealing with the feral cat problem, with hoarders, resettlement of out-of-state dogs, and management of dogs with behavior issues, more than with actual local lost dogs and cats. All these are worthy goals, but dealing with the after-effects of hoarding, feral cats, and problem dogs should be done at the lowest cost possible (I'm not for public subsidy of a no-kill goal for hard-to-place animals, I'm afraid), while importation of dogs for adoption should not be a tax-payer subsidized activity.

So, again, I can't support rapid reuse of the JAC building as a shelter without a very clear business plan, including a quantitative need assessment and financial analysis, and a proven long-term partner with experience in actually providing a well-run shelter. Otherwise we could just end up with another JAC, but with a larger taxpayer subsidy. Just loving animals has not been enough to build a sustainable solution in the past.

I also think it is the time for an evaluation of whether the current building is really the right location for a shelter, given its strategic location between a river corridor that has just gotten a major grant for improvement and the parks that surround it. I haven't seen Maplewood residents suggesting a new location adjacent to two or three of their recreational facilities, and I think it is fair to long-term South Orange Village vision and planning to have a real discussion about the future of this land and whether it should continue to be a shelter, even if that discussion slows the permanent solution.

I'm with you on working for process improvements, clearer rules and procedures, etc., but it sounds like our agreement ends there.

Thank you Susan. +1

Because, to many people and politicians, this is not an important issue, as animals don't matter to them.

+2 susan. That's my struggle with this issue too. There are many towns that do not have shelters, so I'm not sure I understand the perspective that South Orange "must" have one. It feels that we have many more pressing needs in terms of our tax dollars. Please understand I'm not without empathy for the animals - I actually adopted my dog from JAC many years ago so I appreciate that it was local.

Susan: Animal control costs money whether it is performed directly by town officials in a town facility or it is contracted out to a private or quasi-public entity. When you stop to consider all the costs currently incurred by your town or mine for general animal control services plus shelter costs, you may find that maintaining a local shelter in the manner proposed by the local shelter advocates can be more cost effective than farming out some or all of the function. It would be helpful to see a cost comparison if someone reading this could provide the figures.

While I gather from your posts on the subject that you would favor repurposing of the JAC building, you need to understand that Maplewood has at least part ownership of the building. Any alternate use would likely have to be agreed to by both towns. This is not solely a South Orange issue.

susan1014 said:
Morganna, what bothers me about this thread is that, while it shows a clear need for process improvements, you and some others seem to be using it for the political goal of trying to get everyone to lobby for another shelter, now. I have yet to be convinced that the critical mass of steady, ongoing need actually merits a town/village-supported shelter to protect the interests of the resident pet-owners of MSO.
In a period when all responsible pet owners should be tagging their pets for easy return, an additional shelter seems to be a solution for dealing with the feral cat problem, with hoarders, resettlement of out-of-state dogs, and management of dogs with behavior issues, more than with actual local lost dogs and cats. All these are worthy goals, but dealing with the after-effects of hoarding, feral cats, and problem dogs should be done at the lowest cost possible (I'm not for public subsidy of a no-kill goal for hard-to-place animals, I'm afraid), while importation of dogs for adoption should not be a tax-payer subsidized activity.

Yes, lets do lowest cost possible. Its so much cheaper to euthanize - no food cost, no vaccination cost, no shelter maintenance cost ...

"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated." - Mahatma Gandhi quotes from BrainyQuote.com.