Left, Right and Center
Smedley said:
Oh come on. Who people voted for in Nov. says little about their political leanings because there were only two choices, Trump or not Trump. Go back to 2018/19 discussions and Biden was probably about MOL's 10th choice. In fact he was probably the single most scorned candidate on here.
If we had RCV, we'd know where MOL ranked Biden ;-)
PVW said:
If we had RCV, we'd know where MOL ranked Biden ;-)
Ranked voting would be a godsend for the primaries.
Klinker said:
Ranked voting would be a godsend for the primaries.
How so?
ETA: That is, you’d prefer them to be winner-take-all-delegates? Or some modification that gets more candidates to the 15 percent proportional threshold?
joanne said:
The most fascinating feature of the DLP was its popularity with Catholics, given its spokesman was BA Santamaria
Reading through this thread I just wanted to stop here to note that while I do not know who this person is "Santamaria" is the type of surname adopted by conversos, that is Spanish Jews who converted to Catholicism to avoid expulsion in the late 15th Century. They had to proclaim how Catholic they were while many continued to practice Judaism in secret.
Edited to say I googled this guy and saw pictures of him. You can judge for yourselves.
I was home and watched the Trump press conference when he announced his plan to sue Facebook and twitter. As usual, he rambled and listed lots of his complaints. In one part, I think I heard him say that hundreds or thousands of dead people were found outside of the Wuhan lab and that there were photographs and that the liberal press suppressed these photos. Did anyone else hear this? If Trump said what I think I heard him say, he once again is showing his total loss of reality. I guess I need to go back and watch the video again.
I have to correct myself: In the video of the Trump news conference on Wednesday 7/7 at about the 18:30 time mark Trump says that the press never showed the "body bags" outside of the Wuhan lab. The "thousands" part that I recalled came from his statement that the scientists thought the virus came from a bat cave thousands of miles away. I do not recall seeing any body bags outside of the Wuhan lab and I think Trump is just passing off more BS. Did anyone see body bags outside Wuhan lab?
I just did a quick internet search of "body bags Wuhan." The body bags video was from a funeral home and a hospital in Wuhan. It is not a secret if I could find it so easily. No internet videos of Wuhan lab body bags. The video person was arrested. No doubt that Wuhan China got hit hard with Covid and with a possible 24,000 or more dead.
So, Trump is once again taking one piece of reality and fraudulently adding it to his false narratives. Very sick thinking. I am very angry that this pandemic was made a political issue by Trump. Because of his sick politics, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Americans may have died needlessly.
But, Trump is right in saying that the China government has been very irresponsible, secretive, and deadly in this pandemic. Because of this, we may never know the true origin of the Covid II virus.
PVW said:
StanV -- curious what kinds of questions these labels help you answer? Are you looking to place US politics in a broader context of peer countries? A US-specific context looking at what constitutes "left" and "right" over time? Self-reflection on where your own views, or maybe the views of posters here, lie relative to the overall US electorate?
Sorry I did not reply sooner. I saw a discussion on the other thread which seemed to reference the Republican weaponization of the terms "far-left", "radical" and "socialist" to attack mainstream Dems and reformist policies. At one of the campaign debates of the Dem Primary in 2020 someone mentioned that the Republicans would attack the Dems as "socialist" and "radical" if Bernie or Liz won the nomination. Mayor Pete replied that no matter who won the nomination and no matter what platform they adopted the Republicans would attack the nominee and proposals as "radical" and "socialist". It was just about the best thing Pete said during those debates,
Anyway I just wanted to have a lively discussion. I have been modestly successful.
STANV said:
Sorry I did not reply sooner. I saw a discussion on the other thread which seemed to reference the Republican weaponization of the terms "far-left", "radical" and "socialist" to attack mainstream Dems and reformist policies. At one of the campaign debates of the Dem Primary in 2020 someone mentioned that the Republicans would attack the Dems as "socialist" and "radical" if Bernie or Liz won the nomination. Mayor Pete replied that no matter who won the nomination and no matter what platform they adopted the Republicans would attack the nominee and proposals as "radical" and "socialist". It was just about the best thing Pete said during those debates,
Anyway I just wanted to have a lively discussion. I have been modestly successful.
"far left" is absolutely used to marginalize reasonable liberal ideas like a higher minimum wage or universal health coverage.
Anyone who thinks it describes the typical liberal from Maplewood probably doesn't travel out of the country much (or if they do, doesn't pay much attention to attitudes of the locals). As for me, as soon as I set my feet down in a city in another country I feel like a conservative. Whether it's Toronto, Berlin, Prague, Reykjavik, Barcelona, London, Paris or any other city in the world, their attitudes toward the environment, waste, veganism, consumption, etc. are to the left of almost everyone I know, including myself. Then talk to anyone in those countries about our health care. Needless to say it seems barbaric to them.
Not to suggest any of these countries is perfect. But on a left right continuum, their average citizens are a step to the left of our supposedly super progressive SOMA.
Suggesting we are "far left" is obviously not correct under any circumstances. It also displays an overly U.S.-centric POV. But political thought exists outside our country and a lot of the time those ideas are worth considering for ourselves.
Obviously.
I agree that Europe is left of SoMa, but I don't think that's especially relevant for purposes of this discussion. My argument is / has been that SoMa is pretty far left as far as the U.S. political mainstream goes.
Also, if you're making an international comparison, note that there are many right / far right countries in Africa, the Middle East and Asia. Not saying they're the right systems either, but they exist, and ignoring them in your comp displays an overly euro-centric POV.
Smedley said:
My argument is / has been that SoMa is pretty far left as far as the U.S. political mainstream goes.
Nobody here says that's not your argument.
Hardly anyone here sees that you've given any back-up for the "far left" characterization.
If support for LGBTQ rights, racial equality, women's rights, environmental protection, action against climate change, greater opportunities for health care in underserved communities (to name just some issues) is "far left" in your book, I guess that's what you call the people who support those.
Maybe this conversation will get somewhere if you explain why those issues are "far left" instead of "mainstream liberal".
nohero said:
Hardly anyone here sees that you've given any back-up for the "far left" characterization.
Do you equate unanimity on here as truth?
drummerboy said:
are we kidding with this thread?
Agreed it's played out hence my limited response. I wouldn't have responded at all were it not for the continued not-so-veiled insults of anyone who dares posit that MOL and far left can even be in the same conversation. Let's see, ignorant, provincial, only listens to public statements of Senators (not even sure what that means), etc. I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting.
(against my better judgement)
In the interest of symmetry, if we're far-left, what/who is far-right?
drummerboy said:
(against my better judgement)
In the interest of symmetry, if we're far-left, what/who is far-right?
Broadly speaking I consider the religious right / Christian conservatives /evangelicals far right. You know, Mike Huckabee, the Falwells, Bob Jones University. Otis Oracle from Bloom County.
I'd consider militiamen and survivalists far-far right, or fringe right, or radical right. The folks who actively participated in 1/6.
What about 1/6 supporters/denialists? Big-lie believers? That's pretty far-right. And it makes up a majority of the R caucus and by far a majority of the R's that have declared to run in 2022. And a majority of the R party itself.
The point being that this "far" stuff is nonsense. The majority of the R party holds beliefs that are far more extreme than anything you call far-left. But by definition, the R beliefs are not "far" because they're smack in the middle of the bell curve. They're mainstream.
ETA: mainstream for R's, that is.
Smedley said:
Broadly speaking I consider the religious right / Christian conservatives /evangelicals far right. You know, Mike Huckabee, the Falwells, Bob Jones University. Otis Oracle from Bloom County.
If you were looking for Pew to back you up here, too, it has the anti-gay, anti-immigration, less-college-educated, America-is-going-to-hell cohort to the left of Core Conservatives.
drummerboy said:
What about 1/6 supporters/denialists? Big-lie believers? That's pretty far-right. And it makes up a majority of the R caucus and by far a majority of the R's that have declared to run in 2022. And a majority of the R party itself.
The point being that this "far" stuff is nonsense. The majority of the R party holds beliefs that are far more extreme than anything you call far-left. But by definition, the R beliefs are not "far" because they're smack in the middle of the bell curve. They're mainstream.
It's a bit more muddled on the R side with Trump and the rise of the alt-right. I have a close friend from way back when who I consider alt right but not far right, as he's not even a Republican. More Venn diagrams on that side I guess.
Ultimately this whole categorization bit is "far" (pun intended) from an exact science. I think it largely comes down to how one defines far. I define far as the furthest left/right within the political mainstream, whereas others seem to define far as outside the political mainstream (or, posit that the category doesn't exist). So while we may disagree, I will also say that other worldviews are as valid as mine.
Paul Gosar is a Republican member of Congress. He is "far-far" Right.
I do not believe any Democratic Member of Congress is as "far" left. There is a Member who is of Palestinian descent. What would be the response if she attended an event with Hamas supporters?
These labels mean nothing, of course. Hoping we can move on.
What matters is developing policies that will do the most good for the country while not alienating the fringe voters who help to keep you in power so much that they vote for the other side, don't vote at all, or waste their votes on fringe parties with no chance of winning.
Focus on the left flank progressives to keep them happy enough and the fiscal moderates for the same reason. The mainstream liberals like most here are taken for granted. After all, who else are we going to vote for?
I think Biden is doing a fine balancing act.
Maureen Dowd’s column yesterday was an interview with Bernie Sanders. He made this stupid distinction: "Liberals want to do nice things. And progressives understand that you have to take on powerful special interests to make it happen.”
nohero said:
Maureen Dowd’s column yesterday was an interview with Bernie Sanders. He made this stupid distinction: "Liberals want to do nice things. And progressives understand that you have to take on powerful special interests to make it happen.”
hmm. I never knew that. 
Smedley said:
Obviously.
I agree that Europe is left of SoMa, but I don't think that's especially relevant for purposes of this discussion. My argument is / has been that SoMa is pretty far left as far as the U.S. political mainstream goes.
So you're including only the mainstream in your consideration?
So people here are the "far left" of the mainstream? That's kind of a weird way to use the term "far left" but I guess it's accurate in its limited scope.
So, in other words, "far-left" is actually part of mainstream thought. As Humpty Dumpty said, “When I use a word… it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.”
Historic instruction aside, mainstream opinion within a given society at a given time is sometimes the context that someone chooses to discuss.
Steve said:
So, in other words, "far-left" is actually part of mainstream thought. As Humpty Dumpty said, “When I use a word… it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.”
That’s because they believe the “mainstream” is radical left. That’s why they watch Fox or OANN…
It is absolutely just you.