Is religion finally dying?

LOST said:

This probably belongs in Politics but how interesting that certain Right-Wing Republicans who always seem to be mixing Religion with Politics are upset with the Pope for getting involved with Politics. 

Yeah well, I thought of this conversation as a virtual cafe kinda thing. You know, like this is how I feel and how I get through my day. To if it turns political I am out.  

To me (a non-believer), spiritual and religious mean essentially the same thing.  I can't see you effectively having one without the other.  It's become common to use the word spiritual to describe those that subscribe to 'outsider' religions.

imonlysleeping said:

You can have a religion of one or a religion of 1 billion, but if you explain the mysteries of the universe via belief in a supreme being or beings, that is a religion. It doesn't have anything to do with how many adherents the religion has.

Dictionaryreligion   noun re·li·gion \ri-ˈli-jən\

: the belief in a god or in a group of gods

: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

oneofthegirls said:

I disagree. There is no one else in my church and I have no intention of drawing them in. I certainly will share my spiritually yet they do so on their own. Nope. No religion here to join up. THAT is the difference between religion and spirituality.

 

 That's fine. but that's not what the survey is asking.

imonlysleeping said:

You can have a religion of one or a religion of 1 billion, but if you explain the mysteries of the universe via belief in a supreme being or beings, that is a religion. It doesn't have anything to do with how many adherents the religion has.

Dictionaryreligion   noun re·li·gion \ri-ˈli-jən\

: the belief in a god or in a group of gods

: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

oneofthegirl a said:

I disagree. There is no one else in my church and I have no intention of drawing them in. I certainly will share my spiritually yet they do so on their own. Nope. No religion here to join up. THAT is the difference between religion and spirituality.

 

 Nope.  I am not explaining the mysteries of the universe. I am experiencing them and sharing them with my loved ones. It is personal. It is spiritual. MY spirit. It has NOTHING  to do with you or anyone else.

qrysdonnell said:

To me (a non-believer), spiritual and religious mean essentially the same thing.  I can't see you effectively having one without the other.  It's become common to use the word spiritual to describe those that subscribe to 'outsider' religions.

From my personal point of view, religious means following rules and requirements of specific organized religions. I can believe if a higher power (for lack of better word), but I don't consider myself religious because I don't participate in religious events or follow the rules per se.
That is what I think most people are getting away from, the organized set of rules and requirements involved with organized religion (i.e. mass, prayer etc).

From my point of view, or a former practicing Catholic, I can't follow direction from those that obviously are unable to follow the teachings they preach. Once the "leader" is unable to follow the rules and requirements why should I?

I have some "odd" views of "God" anyhow considering my strict Catholic upbringing.  

I didn't say it did have anything to do with anyone else. But it's still religion. I'm not really sure what we're even debating here?

oneofthegirls said:

imonlysleeping said:

You can have a religion of one or a religion of 1 billion, but if you explain the mysteries of the universe via belief in a supreme being or beings, that is a religion. It doesn't have anything to do with how many adherents the religion has.

Dictionaryreligion   noun re·li·gion \ri-ˈli-jən\

: the belief in a god or in a group of gods

: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

oneofthegirl a said:

I disagree. There is no one else in my church and I have no intention of drawing them in. I certainly will share my spiritually yet they do so on their own. Nope. No religion here to join up. THAT is the difference between religion and spirituality.

 

 Nope.  I am not explaining the mysteries of the universe. I am experiencing them and sharing them with my loved ones. It is personal. It is spiritual. MY spirit. It has NOTHING  to do with you or anyone else.

One of the most interesting things in that article is the speculation that young people might be abandoning religion because it's increasingly associated with repellent right-wing lunatics. Would be ironic if conservative christians' efforts to impose their lifestyle actually reduced religiosity in a significant way. 

People are aligning their religious beliefs with their political beliefs, but if you are a political liberal you should have a measured reaction to this because it is more liberal churches, ie Mainline Protestants and Catholics, that are seeing the big decline in affiliation. Affiliation in more conservative, evangelical churches (probably) grew, although not by as large a proportion of the population at large.

What this means is that the lifestyles of liberals and conservatives will diverge even further and that the country's political polarization will become theologized and even deeper.  

.

I don't really see this as a problem. Religion increasingly becomes marginalized as the purview of ignorant reactionaries while rational mainstream society continues its slide toward secular humanism, as has happened in Europe. Seems like a positive trend to me.

JBennett said:

One of the most interesting things in that article is the speculation that young people might be abandoning religion because it's increasingly associated with repellent right-wing lunatics. Would be ironic if conservative christians' efforts to impose their lifestyle actually reduced religiosity in a significant way. 

People are aligning their religious beliefs with their political beliefs, but if you are a political liberal you should have a measured reaction to this because it is more liberal churches, ie Mainline Protestants and Catholics, that are seeing the big decline in affiliation. Affiliation in more conservative, evangelical churches (probably) grew, although not by as large a proportion of the population at large.

What this means is that the lifestyles of liberals and conservatives will diverge even further and that the country's political polarization will become theologized and even deeper.  

imonlysleeping 

What we are debating

Even though I believe in my catholic upbringing, I am no longer attached to the Catholic Church. I no longer consider myself religious. My beliefs are mine and I am separated from the church.

 

Meanwhile a NJ woman is suing that she was denied the license plate "8THEIST," and she should probably be allowed to put whatever she wants if we are going to continue this infantile trend of, shall we say, "vanity of vanities, all is vanity" plates; but this literally reads not "atheist" but "ate theist." (Or "eight heist"? Is she pulling off bank jobs?) Nobody's metaphysics gets a monopoly on facepalm provocation.

imonlysleeping said:

I don't really see this as a problem. Religion increasingly becomes marginalized as the purview of ignorant reactionaries while rational mainstream society continues its slide toward secular humanism, as has happened in Europe. Seems like a positive trend to me.

 Whether that's actually positive or negative depends a lot on one's viewpoint, but yours is clear, so fair enough. But I am not convinced that this secularizing thesis that has been tossed around the Tower for decades is as clear-cut as it is usually presented. Religion has a curious persistence when it's down.

I think rituals define a religion better than beliefs. Some religions don't require you to believe anything. And not every religion's picture of God is of a string-pulling super being.

The problem with religion comes when people are arrogant enough to believe that they are right and others are wrong and use religion as the excuse. But what is really at play is that, because of human nature, we feel threatened by each other. We think of excuses to fight each other. If we didn't have religion, we would use other excuses. Religion isn't the cause, it's the excuse.

Interestingly, this arrogance is what, in my own personal belief, is behind the third commandment. The third commandment says you shall not take the lord's name in vain. I think that is saying, don't be arrogant, and don't claim to know God's will better than anyone else. Don't claim to know the nature of God better than anyone else. And how many people practice this? Not enough, for sure.

Maybe they read it as "ate the ist"

ist is defined as:

1. 1.denoting an adherent of a system of beliefs, principles, etc., expressed by nouns ending in - ism."hedonist"
2. 2.denoting a member of a profession or business activity."dentist"

SouthernBaron said:

Meanwhile a NJ woman is suing that she was denied the license plate "8THEIST," and she should probably be allowed to put whatever she wants if we are going to continue this infantile trend of, shall we say, "vanity of vanities, all is vanity" plates; but this literally reads not "atheist" but "ate theist." (Or "eight heist"? Is she pulling off bank jobs?) Nobody's metaphysics gets a monopoly on facepalm provocation.

 Probably just worships octopus tentacles.

ridski said:

It wouldn't take much in this country for everyone to go running back to the churches again.

 It always love when you enter a conversation ridski!

I think imonlysleeping sees these as all sides of the same die, fundamentally irrational, subjective, and likely if not demonstrably untrue.

Untrue for her/him.

As a member of a Protestant church I can say that our church is a group of people gather to worship God and Jesus on Sundays.  But we are also friends who help each other in times of need.  We also spend lots of time gathering things and collecting money to feed and clothe the poor with our many mission projects.  

I don't like that some churches use their numbers to influence politics.  I also think there is some verse somewhere that says, "he who is without sin should cast the first stone".  

What is the difference between a god and a spiritual earth force? And why would one belief in one be a religion and not belief in the other? I really don't understand the difference. Religion is belief in a supernatural power that governs the universe. Some religions believe in gods or a god that take a human form (but aren't human, of course). Other religions are animistic. And others believe in what you describe as spiritual earth forces. But they're all still religions. I just don't see how you can be spiritual but not religious. I can see how you could be religious but not affiliated with a particular organized religion, but that seems very different. 

oneofthegirls said:

imonlysleeping said:

What does it mean to be "spiritual" but not religious? That you believe in spirits? I've never understood what people mean when they say this. 

To me it means to have taken your formal training of religion, what it means to YOUR spirit,and applied it to your own spirit. I was raised catholic yet I don't necessarily choose to participate in the church. Therefore, not necessarily religious.

 My understanding of this is people believe in god, or a higher power of some kind, but they do not follow the tenets or adhere to the beliefs or rituals of any organized religion.

oneofthegirls said:

LOST said:

This probably belongs in Politics but how interesting that certain Right-Wing Republicans who always seem to be mixing Religion with Politics are upset with the Pope for getting involved with Politics. 

Yeah well, I thought of this conversation as a virtual cafe kinda thing. You know, like this is how I feel and how I get through my day. To if it turns political I am out.  

 Why are you out if Francis is in?

imonlysleeping said:

I don't really see this as a problem. Religion increasingly becomes marginalized as the purview of ignorant reactionaries while rational mainstream society continues its slide toward secular humanism, as has happened in Europe. Seems like a positive trend to me.

 The most significant progressive social movement in America in the last 100 yeas was led by a bunch of guys with "Rev." in front of their names who belonged to something called the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.

Peggy, you're talking about the difference between being religious and being a member of an organized religion. Is spirituality just another way of saying religion without a specific religious affiliation? If so, then it would be meaningless to claim that some people who say they're no longer religious are actually still spiritual (which is how we got on this subject in the first place). But if being spiritual is somehow different from being religious, I still don't understand how. 

I'm just surprised that Pew is presenting this as if these trends are a big surprise.  I guess it's a surprise to them if they haven't been paying attention to other polls over the last 40 or so years (this is only Pew's second poll).  All of this is VERY, VERY  OLD NEWS.

Here

If you will not accept the distinction that several of us have offered, I really don't see any way we can make you see what we see. My feeling is you are defining religion far too narrowly. Yes, it does involve the belief in a higher power, but almost every definition includes a clarification that this is especially within the context of an organization with established methods of worship.

Perhaps being spiritual means believing without any structure of worship? I don't know. But I am tired of trying to explain.