Is modern conservatism a threat to us?

terp said:

Who knew this would end up being the kumbaya thread?  ">

I have that effect on people 

ml1 said:

ridski said:

One of the reasons why I never mentioned who organized it or who was actually there.

So it's like Fight Club?

I think it really was. Someone was kicked out just before I got there, iirc.

terp said:
People will make mistakes. ***** will always happen. I agree.  However, when you centralize power when people mess up it tends to affect everybody. 

In addition, I would contend that we'd more likely get better government if power were decentralized.  We don't seem to be going in that direction.  

I also don't believe government is necessary for collective action. This can be done spontaneously.  Look at all the efforts to get bottled water to Flint.   People are rallying around this issue. And without the proverbial gun pointed at them.  

I agree with your first point, and I think it's a tricky question when you ask should things be municipal or state or federal. To that point, I think the rebellion going on in Oregon is unfairly characterized. I think their behavior is reprehensible, and they also talk funny. But I think they are asking for local control over a shared resource. Maybe they deserve it, and maybe they don't, but it's a legitimate thing to have a debate over.

I didn't say government is necessary for all collective action. I'm saying collective action is necessary and not categorically evil. The libertarian rhetoric I hear these days condemns governments of doing the same things other organizations do. This shows a deep flaw in that rhetoric. I allow that government can screw things up worse in some cases, but there are also cases where government truly is the best answer or the only answer.

Look at the great things society has built especially from the 30's through the 70's. The attitude of "Let's build something" seems a lot more useful to me than "let's not raise taxes for that." Chris Christie could have his name on the tunnel he cancelled. Is there an antonym of visionary? That's what he is.

Bottled water going to Flint is a great lesson, and it shows people at their best. It is also the exception which proves the rule. You can't rely on spontaneous kindness for essential life services! This issue will probably disappear from the public consciousness before the problem is solved. I say that because that's how these things usually go. Katrina's wreckage is still not fixed nor are the underlying problems that allowed it to happen.

Modern conservatism says we shouldn't build things. In that respect, yes, it is a grave threat. We need to take risks and innovate and build.

ridski said:
Someone was kicked out just before I got there, iirc.

Tell us more!   

Tom_Reingold said:

ridski said:
Someone was kicked out just before I got there, iirc.

Tell us more!  "> 

Ha! Not for me to say as that person is no longer on MOL and as I wasn't there at the time, I can't corroborate.   

My money is on straw.

Anyhoo, what an interesting turn of events in this now-introspective thread.

ctrzaska said:

My money is on straw.

Anyhoo, what an interesting turn of events in this now-introspective thread.

Not straw, sorry.

Tom_Reingold said: 

I agree with your first point, and I think it's a tricky question when you ask should things be municipal or state or federal. To that point, I think the rebellion going on in Oregon is unfairly characterized. I think their behavior is reprehensible, and they also talk funny. But I think they are asking for local control over a shared resource. Maybe they deserve it, and maybe they don't, but it's a legitimate thing to have a debate over.

I didn't say government is necessary for all collective action. I'm saying collective action is necessary and not categorically evil. The libertarian rhetoric I hear these days condemns governments of doing the same things other organizations do. This shows a deep flaw in that rhetoric. I allow that government can screw things up worse in some cases, but there are also cases where government truly is the best answer or the only answer.

Look at the great things society has built especially from the 30's through the 70's. The attitude of "Let's build something" seems a lot more useful to me than "let's not raise taxes for that." Chris Christie could have his name on the tunnel he cancelled. Is there an antonym of visionary? That's what he is.

Bottled water going to Flint is a great lesson, and it shows people at their best. It is also the exception which proves the rule. You can't rely on spontaneous kindness for essential life services! This issue will probably disappear from the public consciousness before the problem is solved. I say that because that's how these things usually go. Katrina's wreckage is still not fixed nor are the underlying problems that allowed it to happen.

Modern conservatism says we shouldn't build things. In that respect, yes, it is a grave threat. We need to take risks and innovate and build.

I think you will have to be specific about the libertarian rhetoric you are talking about.   I think the cases where the government is the best or only answer are very limited.  I don't think I'm with you regarding the great things from the 30's to the 70's.  I wouldn't want to go back to those times.  I think we have it much better now than we had it then.  

I would agree that since that time, most of the things in the government sphere have eroded quite a bit.  Our infrastructure, our schools, are in a very poor state.  Our rights are being violated as a matter of course.  We imprison more people than anywhere on earth.  It's really in a bad state.

Think about the private sphere. Even if you are poor today you're standard of living has risen by leaps and bounds.  If you go back to the early 20th century, only rich people could travel.  I think the vast majority of people in this nation lived within 50 miles of where they were born then.  Today anyone can travel that distance.  Rich or poor.  The rich might do this in a much nicer car, but the poor have this means as well.  In the early 20th Century only the rich might be able to afford to see the symphony or have music performed privately.  Today anyone can download Bach or whatever and walk around the street listening to it.  How great is that?  There are numerous examples of this in the private sphere and we are all better off!  I don't have the numbers in front of me, but if you look at the per capita income, it has risen dramatically. This kind of improvement is unprecedented.  

My experience is that people are charitable.  Charity is identifying a need and filling it yourself.  It is not the government taking money from one person and giving it to another.  That is something else, and if anything has made us less charitable. 

Who is saying we shouldn't build things? I'm not sure I'm aware of this.  

Regarding the ranchers in Oregon.  I do think they have a legitimate gripe.  I don't agree with the armed protest, but sometimes you can understand where someone is coming from and yet not agree with how they handle it.

I listened to a rancher who wasn't involved in the protest on a podcast when this thing started.  He was pretty even handed.  He knew some of the people involved.  He wasn't friends with them, but he would know them when he saw them, went to high school with some, etc.   The way he explained it is that people in this region have been paying for increased Government Environmental regulations.  The BLM has bought out ranchers.  Mills have closed.   People, like the Hammonds have been harassed.  They feel like they are losing their way of life. It's easy for people like us, who live in an urban environment and know nothing of how they live, to point and laugh.  The thread on this board regarding this incident is quite disappointing IMO.  

ridski said:

ctrzaska said:

My money is on straw.

Anyhoo, what an interesting turn of events in this now-introspective thread.

Not straw, sorry.

I heard it was GOP Man

I was completely unaware of this incident.  Was this a different gathering than the one I attended?

Maybe we should have a book club. We can all read "The Dispossessed" and then meet and discuss it.

I too read non-fiction and it far from boring.

or this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SFZB93Y/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?ie=UTF8&btkr=1

Not sure if serious but I'm game.  

LOST said:

Maybe we should have a book club. We can all read "The Dispossessed" and then meet and discuss it.

I too read non-fiction and it far from boring.

Serious comment?

ridski said:
"Don't attribute to conspiracy that which can easily be explained by incompetence."

Awesome – This sums up all the Post Office threads

terp said:

Look at all the efforts to get bottled water to Flint.   People are rallying around this issue. And without the proverbial gun pointed at them.  

Yes, people are rallying around Flint and making efforts to get water to them.  So what.  That's about 102,000 people.  It won't work on a long-term basis and it certainly wouldn't work on a large scale.  I question whether or not it is even working in Flint now.  The only thing that is going to fix this is the federal government stepping in and getting the City's water system connected to a potable water supply.

Steve said:

terp said:

Look at all the efforts to get bottled water to Flint.   People are rallying around this issue. And without the proverbial gun pointed at them.  

Yes, people are rallying around Flint and making efforts to get water to them.  So what.  That's about 102,000 people.  It won't work on a long-term basis and it certainly wouldn't work on a large scale.  I question whether or not it is even working in Flint now.  The only thing that is going to fix this is the federal government stepping in and getting the City's water system connected to a potable water supply.

The system is connected to a potable water system, it was switched back to it's original suppler. The problem is the pipes continue to leach lead. It looks like the entire piping may need to be replaced.

Even if the system is going to be sold to a private company, not that unusual, the government will still need to be involved.

terp said:

PVW said:

And actually, on that point, my feeling around tone and political discourse is to remember that people are not their political opinions. You and I clash frequently, often quite sharply, as is to be expected since our political philosophies are so profoundly at odds. I don't take anything you say personally, and I try very hard to keep my criticisms focused on your philosophy and not personal attacks. I'm sure it doesn't always feel that way (you called one of my posts "mean-spirited," which suggests my intent, and the way it was received, differed by quite a bit), but do rest assured that I have nothing personally against you. I try to avoid the obvious red lines - eg calling people stupid or evil - but when there's fundamental disagreement, there's no getting around the fact that each person believes the other is quite simply, deeply wrong. 

Still working on the problem of how to honestly and deeply challenge a philosophy without making it feel like a personal attack. Maybe there is no answer, and deep disagreement just inherently feels bad - deeply held beliefs sure feel personal, and it's probably not much consolation when someone's attacking those to have them say "well, at least I'm not calling you stupid!"

But, what I was trying to say is that people are much more than their politics. Who knows, if we knew each other in person we might enjoy each others company. It's really hard to say when you only interact with people online, and even worse when that interaction is only in the context of sharp political disagreement. That's why it's nice to hang out in some of the non-political threads sometimes, and talk about, say, craft beer. 

Well said.  At the end of the day, we usually get over these things. I think I paid you a compliment earlier that you were passionate about your beliefs.  You take the time to read and consider.  While IMO you come to the wrong conclusions , I'm not sure I could give you a higher compliment than that.  I mean I'd rather discuss matters with someone I disagree with who is well thought out and has done some research than someone with whom I agree but that hasn't really thought things through.  

ridski said:

A few years ago, a select few who regularly post in All Politics met up in O'Reilly's and over a few beers and cocktails we all had (dare I say it) a good time. We poked a little fun at each other, but the mood was pleasant and we hardly talked about politics that much at all, really. We keep saying this, but we are definitely overdue for another one of these events, I think.

Edited to add: In other words, PVW, we are definitely more than our politics and more than our posts here in MOL no matter what the topic.

Yeah. That was fun.  I remember while on my way there I didn't know what to expect. 

Thanks, I appreciate that. And I appreciate your willingness and courage to be part of the fray. I actually grew up in a conservative part of the country; I know what it feels like to have a overwhelmingly minority POV.  A lot of the posters here who don't fit broadly within the dominant POV make what amount to hit-and-run, unserious posts. You don't - you're willing to stay in the conversation. I truly respect that.

BCC said:

LOST said:

Maybe we should have a book club. We can all read "The Dispossessed" and then meet and discuss it.

I too read non-fiction and it far from boring.

Serious comment?

Yes.

Let's do it then!  I actually downloaded the Devil's Chessboard as suggested by ml1 because it's non-fiction.  I guess that's just how I roll

PVW said:
Thanks, I appreciate that. And I appreciate your willingness and courage to be part of the fray. I actually grew up in a conservative part of the country; I know what it feels like to have a overwhelmingly minority POV.  A lot of the posters here who don't fit broadly within the dominant POV make what amount to hit-and-run, unserious posts. You don't - you're willing to stay in the conversation. I truly respect that.

Right back atchya.  It's good to converse with those you don't agree with.  Even if you can't find common ground, it keeps you sharp. 

terp said:

Let's do it then!  I actually downloaded the Devil's Chessboard as suggested by ml1 because it's non-fiction.  I guess that's just how I roll ">

I may not start reading it immediately but I'm willing to get to it in the next couple of weeks if others are in.

I'd be up for this too.

LOST said:

terp said:

Let's do it then!  I actually downloaded the Devil's Chessboard as suggested by ml1 because it's non-fiction.  I guess that's just how I roll ">

I may not start reading it immediately but I'm willing to get to it in the next couple of weeks if others are in.

If it works out I will join you in April. Don't have a kindle and getting books in Rincon is not the easiest thing in the world.

My wife belongs to a book club down here and we bring the books to be discussed with us.

I skipped a few pages in the thread because the BCC/Solyndra thing was making me crazy.

Is that part over now?

Who won?

drummerboy said:

I skipped a few pages in the thread because the BCC/Solyndra thing was making me crazy.

Is that part over now?

Who won?

It was over until you just brought it up again.