How Much/Little Do Say regarding your siblings treatment of your parents?

conandrob240 said:

I strongly disagree and I take issue with you offering a critique of an interaction with my nephew which had nothing to do with the question. It was rude and out of line. No thanks offered. It's like criticizing your parenting on a thread about where to eat dinner. Rude and mean.

Anything you post is fair game. If you don't want anyone commenting, don't post it. Maybe you thought that shaming him was just a typical parenting (or "aunting," as the case may be) device, and thus was an inconsequential remark in your post. You were surprised that I reacted to it.

Shaming children is never the right thing to do.

I have no horse in this race except for the fact that I think that the fewer children who are shamed, the fewer troubled adults we'd have in this country.

conandrob240 said:

And I think your line of thinking around close contact is a bit off base. It seems you are not close to your family if you think near daily contact between mother and daughter is out of the ordinary. 

Frequency of contact is not a measure of the strength of love or closeness. There are as many ways to interact as there are mother-daughter pairs. My point was only that you don't have to talk every day and you don't have to know the details. What would happen if you didn't?

oh, shoshannah shush. Raise your kids how you want and don't judge an action of another person trying to parent. In my opinion, based on the history of this type of behavior, he deserved to be told he should be embarrassed for what he did. It wasn't typical. I don't think I have ever said "you shoujd be ashamed of yourself" to him in his life. Even if I did, none of your business. Mind your business on this. Again, no one asked for advice on interacting with the teen and you are out of line preaching and judging about that interaction. 

I am trying to do this but it has to be either with the kids or without me. They won't leave the kids alone with their parents for the week. So, I do have some nice trips lined up with me, them and the kids and I'm planning one for just them next year and I'll go out to LI to be there for the kids. It's going to come into play more when my dad retires in October. They had so many things they wanted to do.

ElizMcCord said:

Maybe you can plan these trips for you and your parents that don't involve the grandkids, sounds like the parents deserve it. If they won't do it for themselves make them go with you. Parents get some time to see the world, sibling left alone gets a chance to do some adulting. Win-win, I think. 

conandrob240 said:

very true. I guess this is hitting especially hard because I know they have limited time left to be able to do some of the things they enjoy and it's heartbreaking. If they raise these kids, they aren't going to be able to travel and enjoy those things the same way at 86 years old.  

It appears that you have been wearing a hair shirt for too long about too many family issues.  There comes a point where you have done all that is reasonable to be expected and you have reached a point where self preservation kicks in.  If your siblings are not interested in helping and you are not interested in arranging for a professional to intervene, then stop whining and walk away.  The treatment of your parents by their adult children and grown grandchildren is truly pathetic but there is nothing to be gained by beating yourself up over it.

good point although there is no whining. Fact is, I don't really say a word about it most of the time. I don't think I beat myself up,over it but it does make me very sad for them and very mad at sibling so definitely agree much energy invested.

Is "wearing a hair shirt" a typo? If it's an expression, I am not familiar with it, please explain.

huh. I am not a spring chicken but I can honestly say I have never in my life heard this expression- Wearing a Hair Shirt- they choose to make their life unpleasant by not having or experiencing anything that gives them pleasure. 

Weird comment if this is what you meant. Not sure how you can make that assessment without knowing me. But I assure you my life is filled with lots of things that give me pleasure. There's some sadness and anger ( justifiably so we've had some great sadness in our family these last two years) but it doesn't consume my whole life. 

conandrob240 said:

 Mind your business on this. Again, no one asked for advice on interacting with the teen and you are out of line preaching and judging about that interaction. 

Asking for input on a public message board = asking for people NOT to mind their own business.  Don't put information out there for the world to see if you don't want commentary. You've gotten us all to care about your nephew. Can't put that toothpaste back in the tube.

I was an only child and I spoke to my parents every day because they demanded it.  When my father was alive, he was the one who called.  I guess my mother couldn't figure out how to dial.  If I wasn't home, he kept calling and calling, but never left a message on my machine (this was before voicemail).  After he died, I had to call my mother every day around 5PM, as I was leaving work.  If I was late, or I missed a day, she became hysterical, and started calling my sons, telling them that she was sure that I was hurt or being held hostage by a robber, or dead.  She died nearly 15 years ago.  I do not miss the tyranny of those calls.

Yawn.

shoshannah said:

conandrob240 said:

 Mind your business on this. Again, no one asked for advice on interacting with the teen and you are out of line preaching and judging about that interaction. 

Asking for input on a public message board = asking for people NOT to mind their own business.  Don't put information out there for the world to see if you don't want commentary. You've gotten us all to care about your nephew. Can't put that toothpaste back in the tube.

It's not demanded. I like to see how her day was and I know she likes to hear my voice. She texts now so a day or two a week, it's just a text but most days it's a call just a few minutes to hear what she did that day, ask how,the kids are, etc. My husband is an only also,which is why it seems extra weird to me to only talk to your parents 1-2x a month. But they seem happy enough with it. ( I guess, not really sure how his parents feel)

As for my sister, those calls consisted of her complaining about everything, not taking any ownership of anything, asking for money or for me to do something for her and always her not listening to anything I said, so that was such a drain on me and made me so angry that I just stopped. I stopped calling her, stopped picking up when she called. We mostly just text now (her dozens a day, me a reply a few times a week) and I don't think she likes it but I am somewhat relieved. It has helped keep me calmer but I do feel guilty for shutting her out sometimes.

lizziecat said:

I was an only child and I spoke to my parents every day because they demanded it.  When my father was alive, he was the one who called.  I guess my mother couldn't figure out how to dial.  If I wasn't home, he kept calling and calling, but never left a message on my machine (this was before voicemail).  After he died, I had to call my mother every day around 5PM, as I was leaving work.  If I was late, or I missed a day, she became hysterical, and started calling my sons, telling them that she was sure that I was hurt or being held hostage by a robber, or dead.  She died nearly 15 years ago.  I do not miss the tyranny of those calls.

I don't know many adult women who speak to their mother's daily unless it's demanded (unhealthily) by the parent. 

Because of family dynamics, many choose NOT to speak to their parents daily. And that's okay too.

conandrob240 said:

most people (especially daughters) don't talk to or text their mothers almost every day? I would think that's not true. Anyone care to weigh in? I also think if you had a sib who was in a place of building a career/ looking for/losing jobs, you'd very much have sense of what was happening with her work. Most women I know who have a sister also talk or text them daily or almost daily. I think maybe you are the one who's a bit "odd" on this one.

And I certainly wasn't asking for advice on how to talk to or "coach" my nephew. You are out of line. My intent wasn't to micromanage that situation and get him outside, my intent was to make sure he knew I was pissed at him and that it is unacceptable to let your grandparents work like dogs while you stand by and watch. shaming was the intent and deserved in this situation. He's been told before about this kind of stuff. And I do plenty of encouraging of him all the time. 

I have no idea if I am typical or not, but I would be surprised if MOST people talk/text with their mother every day.

My mother never had a cell phone, and we didn't talk by phone all that often (vestige of her depression kid upbringing and the fact that, for much of my early adulthood, long distance phone charges were prohibitive.) We wrote letters (and later in life emailed) back and forth, but usually only a few times a month.  

My adult daughters text and facebook message me ... sometimes many times in the same day if we get started into a "conversation", but other times not for a week or more.

The expression hair shirt goes back to the middle ages when penitents who wished to atone for wrong doings wore animal skin shirts inside-out with the rough, or hair, side against the skin.  I realize that I may be on the old side but rest assured not that old.  My point was that you can beat yourself up just so much before reaching the point where you can do no more.  Remember, you can pick your friends but not your relatives.  Good luck.

I haven't read any of the posts other than the original, but you have been struggling with this same issue for at least ten years now.   You have asked the same question in various formats so many times.  I don't think we can help you.  I don't think there is any roadmap to this situation.  Maybe therapy for the family?  For you?   I don't know.  But I had to mention it because it's been such a pattern.

Unfortunately, your parents choose to enable and I too would be frustrated and worried about them.    Not sure there is anything that would change that (unless parents need to, or choose to stop or at least scale back).  If I were in your shoes, I would distance myself from the situation however possible and let it play out between parents and sis.  Not easy to do but it is all up to them. Frustrating and worrisome for you but sometimes we have to accept things as they are.

boomie said:

I haven't read any of the posts other than the original, but you have been struggling with this same issue for at least ten years now.   You have asked the same question in various formats so many times.  I don't think we can help you.  I don't think there is any roadmap to this situation.  Maybe therapy for the family?  For you?   I don't know.  But I had to mention it because it's been such a pattern.

I participate in a 12 step program called Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families. Some people deal with issues like this, and they find their ways out by working the program. It's very helpful to many people. We learn to have healthy boundaries and develop fruitful relationships. Maybe something like that is worth a shot. When I go to meetings, I walk out breathing more easily and thinking more clearly. It's like therapy and church rolled into one.

ha! That sounds very nice and relaxing. I surely could benefit. Boomie, it's been more like 40 years but who's counting?mlj, you are right but I don't see myself creating much distance right now because of theckuds and because it'd be so sad to be in the position they are in with the one daughter and then have the other daughter abandon them.  

It has really come to a head since the divorce with child care becoming much, much more and extensive financial support being needed. And as I see them aging, it hurts more. My father hauled tile and paint for 40 years. Lifting and delivering cases of paint cans and floor tile. I remember as a child, he often couldn't walk upright because of debilitating back pain yet he just kept going so that we could have a good life. That man deserves retirement and a few weeks a year doing whatever his heart wants. Selfish Susan causing that retirement to be delayed and causing those meager dreams of a few weeks a year out west or on a beach to be difficult makes my blood boil and fills my heart with sadness. If she appreciated it, I could even make peace with it but she treats them like dogs.

What do your parents want?  Have you talked to them about this (I didn't read this whole thread).

I just finished Hillbilly Elegy - a good read, by the way - an J.D. Vance describes the single-minded focus of his grandparents on family (and his family had some serious dysfunction) until the day they died.  It was what was important to them.

yes, that's important to them and they love it. But they also wish they could do other things

conandrob240 said:

ha! That sounds very nice and relaxing. I surely could benefit. Boomie, it's been more like 40 years but who's counting?mlj, you are right but I don't see myself creating much distance right now because of theckuds and because it'd be so sad to be in the position they are in with the one daughter and then have the other daughter abandon them.  

Nobody is suggesting you abandon your parents. Creating distances and minding boundaries is not abandonment. Not at all.

conandrob240 said:

That man deserves retirement and a few weeks a year doing whatever his heart wants. Selfish Susan causing that retirement to be delayed and causing those meager dreams of a few weeks a year out west or on a beach to be difficult makes my blood boil and fills my heart with sadness. If she appreciated it, I could even make peace with it but she treats them like dogs.

It's your parents' choice to do what they do. You make it sound like they don't have any agency. The only thing standing between your parents and a few weeks on the beach is their decision not to do so. 

conandrob240 said:

yes, that's important to them and they love it. But they also wish they could do other things 

They need to figure out how to do both. Helping out and taking a vacation are not mutually exclusive.

Tjohn, thanks for the book recommendation, BTW. Sounds interesting.

Thechamp, thanks for the explanation. I have never heard that expression before. there's only one relative I wouldn't have "picked" but I get your point. Most of them are pretty awesome in many ways

thechamp said:

The expression hair shirt goes back to the middle ages when penitents who wished to atone for wrong doings wore animal skin shirts inside-out with the rough, or hair, side against the skin.  I realize that I may be on the old side but rest assured not that old.  My point was that you can beat yourself up just so much before reaching the point where you can do no more.  Remember, you can pick your friends but not your relatives.  Good luck.

I think it would be helpful for you to seek therapy to deal with your level of involvement with your parents and sister's daily lives.  It is perfectly normal to speak/text to parents or siblings daily, but for most of us it's a checking in/what's up conversation, not a discussion about family crisis every day.

You do a great job helping your nephew and nieces, but you will never change your sister's behavior or the fact that your parents, and you, are always going to enable this behavior because this is your family and you love them

You need to talk to a therapist and figure out a way that you can be helpful, but not bitter about the fact that you are an important lifeline in this situation.  Nursing grievances gets nowhere and makes the whole situation worse. You will never change this dynamic and you need to either disengage completely, or make peace with the fact that this will never change.

.

there is not a discussion about nor a family crisis everyday. Most days, it's a quick text or call to say hi or see what the person did that day. I don't think I said anything about a crisis or that my parents discuss a crisis with me everyday. In fact, the situation that prompted the thread wasn't anything even remotely like a crisis. My parents cleaned up my siblings yard. They told me about it in casual conversation about what they did that day. It mad me mad because all the sibling does is take, take, take. No one was mad or upset or in crisis. I didn't say I was mad, just said "uh, huh" and changed the topic. The purpose of the thread was whether to voice that sort of anger over things like that and if so, to the parents, the sibling or both or just let it slide. But lots of (mostly) interesting thoughts and some good suggestions nonetheless.

Crisis person is the sibling. Every day is hysterical or a crisis or dramatic misplaced anger. The conversations were / are painful, narcissistic and draining. When I would share something, it was always "what?" and it was clear she was never listening to me just wanted me to listen to her. I have largely cut off those calls. Sometimes I feel a little guilty about it but mostly I feel relief.

I trust you are characterizing your sister accurately (as much as possible) but I might cut her a little slack if her divorce is recent. When mine was recent, I leaned on neighbors for childcare before I figured out permanent solutions. I look back and realize I took advantage in some cases, though some neighbors were very gracious and understanding. Of course, neighbors and parents are very different things.

The therapy suggestion is a good one. Try it if you haven't yet. It's not important whether there are crises or not. It's good to get outside perspective.

And, bringing up Adult Children of Alcoholics again, many people, including me, have found that working the ACA program along with therapy is a very good way to turn your life around.

oh, Tom, if it only it were a result of the divorce, I'd cut her all the slack in the world. 

I hear you. There are many factors, I'm sure.

These things are clearly affecting you very deeply. You have a lot of resentment and anger which is not unreasonable. You are a part of this dysfunctional family even if you consider yourself the sane/normal one. A therapist for yourself could be good for you and dealing with your own emotions about everything. After all the only behavior you can change is your own. You might be contributing to the dynamic in a way that you aren't aware of.  Also might be good to have a professional sounding board.

There's also a good book to check out: "The Normal One: Life with a Difficult or Damaged Sibling." As a "normal one" myself, I highly recommend.

@NizhoniGrrrl gives some excellent advice and insight.

agreed. Thank you.